How Should I respond to her advances

[Arsene]

I guess another question i have, is what should i do about the following things which happen(ed). Was/am I wrong? Can this be damaging? How can i fix this? What should I stop/continue doing?

1. I've been kind to her as much as possible.
2. I often touch her, like I used to (fixing her hair, hand on the shoulder when she's at the computer, hand on the cheek when looking at her, etc...)
3. I offered to help her on the computer with some of her work and in exchange, I asked her to give me singing lesson.
4. I always make sure that our encounters are positive and that there is laughter.
5. In answer to a question she asked, the subject came on to my personal journey since she left and I expressed to her how I though I understood the transformation she was going through and as I was explaining what I understood she grabbed my hand and held it firmly, caressing my fingers with her thumb(lovingly?? compassionately??) and later, I heard her cry (as I was in another room crying silently myself).

[~ kd ~]

Awesome on getting a therapist, yes be focused on your D8 to be the best dad you can and help her (actually, the more appropriate term would be "support" her through this; ie. don't coddle or protect her), and great that you have a plan to focus on your future employment/career.

some of the problems i have is with the 180s. I'm not sure how to change my behaviour other than just try to catch myself whenever the "old" unwanted behaviour surfaces. I'm not sure that this is what is meant by 180. Do you have any suggestions?

Catching yourself at old, unwanted behaviour is great. The more responsive we can be to that, the more we effect the change in ourselves so these behaviours are gone.

What I mean by that, and more specific to your question about what a 180 IS, is that when you know what an unwanted behaviour is... DO THE OPPOSITE.

ie. If you are slovenly, then clean yourself up. If you are a neat freak, then relax about a couple clothes laying on your D8's floor. If you held everyone to extremely high standard, accept that not everyone can or will live up to those standards.

Practice these things in ALL aspects of your life, not just in your M. By repeating the POSITIVE (180) behaviour over enough time, these things become a habit... become the "norm" for you. And you won't find yourself catching yourself in your old, unwanted behaviour, anymore... at least, no where near as much as you are now.

Sometimes we can determine a 180 based on what our spouses complaints were, about us. Then again, our interpretation of what they meant, may be incorrect.

IOW, if our spouse say, "You never showed me you loved me", the 180 may not be to try to be more loving towards our spouse. They likely want space, so showing our love TO them would be pressure and pursuing. Rather, we would check if we are showing loving behaviours to others (such as our kids) and change our behaviours towards others in a positive way. Or, we may think showing our love is by giving gifts, when what they really want is for us to turn off our technology and actually spend time with them, talking about anything... and nothing...

I hope that helps somewhat.

On the other question about whether what you have been trying, was appropriate.

Lets back up a bit, first.

What is your W really telling you, right now?

Is your W telling you that she wants a divorce?

or

Is your W telling you that the M isn't turning out to be the way she thought it might be, or what she wants?

Because sometimes what our spouses are doing is asking for space.

And other times, they aren't pressing for divorce. They are just indicating that there's a problem and we should take note and act and change appropriately, without actually changing who we are, at our chi.

[Arsene]

Thanks Kaffe Diem,

About the 180s, I got it. As you said, I definitely need to relax on a lot of things, and i can do that by giving my daughter a bit of break on stuff. I've been told I'm quite strict with her, although I'm also consistent and loving. I'm sure I can be a bit more understanding if she doesn't pick up all of her stuff all the time and I've already begun to not criticise her when she makes mistakes. Instead I tell her it's ok and not to worry about it and we sort it out together. D8 has noticed the change, she told me.
With regards to the other stuff, my W told me (then) that she "didn't care about divorce papers and that she didn't intend to seek another man or another married life". She also stated that if i needed a divorce she would give it. She also talks about me becoming more of the man i was when she met me. She says that I based my whole happiness on her and that I should be able to find happiness within me. She says it's a big burden to carry for her. She is probably right as much as I hate to admit it.

I've re-read through a lot of our correspondence and I realise that I was probably too upset at the time to actually be listening. There is probably and advantage in being dumped by email and through facebook. Now that i'm calmer, I can go back and re-read what she actually told me. That's what i'll be doing over the next few days (I've got 2 months worth of correspondence to go through) and try to figure out exactly what she is telling me.

I'd still like advice and comments on what to do about the things highlighted above and what to do about them.

Thanks

[~ kd ~]

Great, so based on your response, you have a good understanding of what a 180 is. That's what we are talking about and what you should be doing. Notice something that is... "less than positive"... and work on it as a 180 in self focused way...

In regards to your W's thoughts on D, that is a positive. It means you have time. From your W's comment, it sounds like she's asking for space. So you need to give it to her.

So that means, what you have been doings... the touching and showing love and stuff... she possibly feels is pressuring to her. I'm not saying she isn't liking it. I have no way of knowing that. Still, she may feel pressure because you are being that way with her so she feels that she needs to respond in kind and she may not want to. At least, not right now.

So give her physical and emotional space. That doesn't mean you have to be no contact. That is for you. If you feel emotionally capable (we talk about emotionally detaching from your W and the outcome of your M), then being around her physically in normal, friendly ways, is appropriate.

Your W talking about you returning to being the man she M, that's a good sign. Of course, don't expect that to change anything. And it also doesn't mean turning into the behaviours of a brash, young man. It means that she liked "who" you were. And if you want to be that person again, then do so. Just don't expect your W to suddenly show herself as attracted to you, again. IF she is, it will take time and consistency for her to show it. She needs to believe it is real and permanent and then she has to choose that she likes it.

You may want to add to that if you choose that path. Become the old you again, with some positive additions. Because she now has a memory of who you were and who you became and so her expectations might be that you will once again revert to this current version of you. Being YOU, but slightly different, may help remove that fear from your W that you will revert.

We do remind members not to mind read our spouses and also not to micro analyse them nor the sitch. In the same token, it is good to review the past, including the correspondence. Because yes... in the initial phase of our sitches, we are emotionally stuck and sometimes don't really see what is going on.

Hope that helps. Keep us posted on how things are going with you and also keep asking for feedback.

Sometimes, using this board simply to journal, can be very therapeutic.

[Arsene]

Thanks Kaffe Diem,

This is very uplifting, especially in the mood i have been in lately. I'm feeling much better and can see the path more clearly (at least for now ). I plan on keeping the NC for another few days because it's been good to be alone with my demons. I feel like I've been able to shed a few of them and being able to cry my heart out whenever i need to instead of considering who's around (D8 or W) has also been therapeutic. I'm also Zooming in on what I need to do around here to get my life back on track. The funny thing is, I've been used to relying on W to get anything done around here since it's her country and language but now, I'd like to be able to get all that stuff (house, job, transport, etc...) sorted out by myself (or at least not with her). She's never mentioned that it bothered her but it is something that would definitely surprise her, to see that I'm not depending on her. It would also occupy my mind and perhaps even give me some sort of self-test on how I am managing to cope with the locals.

Thanks again for the feedback.

[Arsene]

One thing accomplished today. I got myself some transport and I managed to do it without my W's help. In fact, since I'm still in NC, she won't even know until I decide to go back. It feels great to be doing that stuff by myself and interacting with the locals. I'm learning the language more and more and I seem to be a lot more patient (and friendly) with everyone. I like the feeling.
By the way, I was wondering about the singing lessons my W said she would give me if I helped her with her computer work. She did ask me for the help but maybe my asking for lessons in return could be seen as pursuing. She might have felt obliged to say yes. Should I stick with it or should I find a way to cancel the deal? If so, how should I do this without seeming to be reneging on a promise?

[~ kd ~]

What promise would you be reneging on?

People often don't realize that it's OK to change our mind. Sometimes, changing our mind is a matter of pride getting in the way of common sense.

My W told me she would do a number of things for me. On things I didn't remind her of, she didn't do. On things that I reminded her of, she changed her mind.

Only ask about the singing lessons if you truly want to learn to and has nothing to do with spending time with your W and hoping it will bring the two of you closer.

Remember, your W is asking for space.

Try the indirect route. Ask your W who she might know that could give you singing lessons. Wait for her to respond with either a suggestion or two, or to offer herself. If she offers herself, the ask her to firm a date. Have no expectations over this.

If she makes other suggestions, then it would be in your best interest to follow those suggestions up. Otherwise, she will see it as some tactic. And it probably would be.

No tactics, here.

[Arsene]

Thanks KD,

The fact is that I need the lessons as I'm now trying to do this music thing for a living and in the past, I mentioned to her that i was considering going to one of her friend's workshops. To this she'd replied that her friend wasn't that great at it and that there would be communication problems as she doesn't speak English anyways. It was at that point that we had jokingly said that she (W) could give me lessons. At the time, she'd said something to the effect that it probably would be better communication-wise.
Maybe I just won't bring it up again and wait for her to talk about it. If she doesn't then I'll forget about it and if she does, I'll do it. Also, to avoid putting pressure on her, I might just not book a specific time and let her bring it up. Do it on her schedule, when she wants, with no set days. This way it's not from me and can't be seen as pursuing.

[~ kd ~]

That sounds fair, Arsene... although by your admission, you DO need lessons... so...

who are you going to get lessons from?

[Arsene]

I got scared and started to talk about our living arrangements and there it got a bit funny when I told her that I wasn't going back to my job but decided to do what i'd always wanted to do. Play music for a living (which was/had been our plan before the holiday - she's also a musician and we had an act together and one of the reasons for her leaving was for her to get more freedom to work on her career). I said I realised that my income would go down but that my D8 and myself could manage well enough but that she (W) would probably need to contribute a bit. She got a bit mad and was about to call me all the names in the book but then, I think she realised she had no rights to do so as she, herself was doing just this. after a few tears, she told me she was shocked and that she wasn't expecting that (I'm not nearly as good as the music thing as she is) but that it was her fault for thinking that i would cover all the expenses. Then we started talking about the logistics of things and things got a bit sour as we realised that 2 households to pay for is more difficult to manage than just one. In the end, she left by bicycle for the room she rents a few kilometers away. She seemed frustrated and unhappy. Part of me looked at this as a victory but after thinking about it again, I felt sad, that i had just put the woman i love through this.

After much consideration, I'm having second thoughts about this situation which happened last week, when i got back. On the one hand, I feel like i have a right to do this and it's part of my GAL plan. After all, it's what we had planned to do before I left on holiday. Why should my part of the plan change just because she changed her mind?
What I'm wondering is my real motive behind that. Is it for me or is it just to get back at her? Being a foreigner in W's country gives me a much better earning potential than hers and this has allowed her to chose her gigs and work her skill over the last 10 years. She never HAD to work so she worked when she wanted and only did what felt good. Now, my decision means that she'll need to take a part (25%) of her meager earnings to help contribute to D8's education while i cover for the total cost of our (D8 and mine) living expenses. Although 3 to 4 times higher than her contribution, I will manage better because of well-paid part time work I can do while working on my music. The problem for her is that now, she only has 3/4 of her wages left to cover her living expenses and that even on her full wage, it was very difficult to do. Now, she'll have to take on more lessons and start accepting gigs that she doesn't necessarily want to do. She admitted that she had expected I'd cover all the costs but also said she realised that she'd had no right to have such expectations.
The thing is, now i feel bad for putting her in this situation and I'm wondering if this is not me putting pressure on her to come back. I'm trying to re-evaluate my motives and the line gets very blurry. Sure she must face her responsibilities towards her daughter and yes, she made the decision to leave (perhaps without thinking about all the logistics of it) but I feel like it goes against everything i have ever wanted for her. I want to support her in anyway I can but i also don't want to be a doormat and go back to a job I was getting tired of (and which drove me to the depression which i think triggered her MLC) just because W chose to go find herself without thinking of the consequences.
Am I doing the right thing? I know I'll be more than capable of managing for my D8 and although a bit more difficult, i could probably also cover the education expenses. Should i just do that and take the pressure off W? Or am I being a doormat if i do?