more turtles by my side...

[zig]

well, well starsky - here we are. or i should say here i am.

I'm not really sure where to start. but zig style I guess i'll just dive in...

the first thing i read this morning was your second post to me. and after that i realized that there were a host of other responses, including your first one.

you definitely came on my thread to teach me something. but it took me many hours...

the first thing i learned was that you gave me another opportunity to practice my new learned skills.

the second thing i learned was that i have really truly changed, and i thank-you for that - tremendously.

so what have i truly changed? after i read your second post my first instinct was to hit reply and let you have it!

then i found i didn't need to. i just simply didn't. i could wait and digest what you wrote, tried to see it from your point of view, listen to what you were saying and then know where i was, what i am, who i want to work towards being and be really okay with that.

and the best thing? i could do it without getting angry, without defending myself or my position and without getting sarcastic or pissy. all the things i would have done before without a moment's hesitation.

that i feel confident enough finally that i don't have to spin-off because someone else doesn't agree with me, don't have to get all panicky and start second-guessing myself because someone suggested that i should do it differently.

now to the first thing i learned. i hope you won't take this the wrong way, because it is not meant that way - it is only to demonstrate where I am at, not you.

your stance reminded me of my h. i didn't feel as if you really read what i was writing. i feel that you picked up on certain things that stuck out for you (your triggers?) and then sort of went for me with them.

at first i could only see my own gut reaction of wanting to write back to you and explain it all. then i found myself thinking - how could i use this negative reaction i am having in a positive way. i found that i could "practice" on you, in preparation for being able to do the same with my h later.

you talk about boundaries? i believe i am learning for the first time in my life, albeit a little late, about what those mean.

and i have a boundary here: I am open to all discussion and interaction and am willing to partake in it wholeheartedly. but what i will not accept from anyone is outright derision.


Zig, if you don't see his going off and continuing to have a physical affair with another woman -- while knowing that you know about it -- as a HUGE problem, then I'm afraid there's nothing I can offer you. "Part of his path" ???

Puhleeze. I'm sorry, in my opinion that's just a bunch of hokum.


If that is not derision and scorn, then I don't know what is.

and yes, it is a trigger for me - my h used that exact way of speaking to me for all the years we were together (including the faces) when he didn't like what i was saying or doing.

so it was a trigger for me - but not in the same way as before - i didn't react in the old way - and i thank you for helping me to see that. i have been really calm about it, just knowing that i would make it clear when i replied to you.

and this:

No, I have not read your entire sitch. What sort of crisis were you in for 5-10 years? I was unaware of that. If your husband stuck by you thru your own prior infidelity, drug use, or some sort of other life crisis that would probably change my view somewhat.

why should it change your view? i thought your view was that you had 0% tolerance for affairs, no matter what. are you saying now that depending on the circumstances, that view may change?

did i need to do something "bad enough" for you to take a more kindly view of my h?

is there a line i had to cross so that it justified MORE what he was doing?

so what were your comments based on, starsky? you say you aren't aware of my sitch but you have had some really strong opinions. then you say that depending on what i tell you about what i did during the marriage, it may change your view?

in your response to me there seems to be an indication that you think that i happily accept what h is doing. no, i don't - absolutely not. it's horrendous that he has done this to me, to our families and to himself. i have never condoned his r with ow, but yes i have told him honestly that if he feels that that is truly what makes him happy then i respect that and i am happy for him. that is not the same thing as saying i'm happy about what he is doing.

as for h being nice and what i define as "nice"... yes i DO think it's nice that h is being nicer. I have no expectations that that will lead to us reconciling - but yes, it is nice to have him feel comfortable enough around s and me alone to eat breakfast with us after 11 months - especially since that was one of our most difficult times of the day.

of course. i agree with you - it would be very nice if he ended the affair - that would be the most nice. but he's not going to end the affair because of what i did or didn't do - he's going to end it if and when he's ready to.

and if he is in mlc - which i truly think he is - what is the point of me taking a"tougher approach" as you put it. i've read a lot throughout the mlc forums and help and i don't find that approach being used it all. how does one keep the path home paved and smooth when one is pointing out to them what they are doing wrong?

in spite of all i've written above, there is also the fact that i am reading everything you wrote with an open mind and it IS making me think about where i stand in terms of how i will act in the future towards h. your posts have definitely made me aware of that, and i do thank you for that too.

those situations where people are noticing that the "be their friend" thing ISN'T working

i haven't noticed or not noticed that yet. i only started being more friendly about a month ago and during that time several things that i didn't expect have happened. several things that h didn't expect have happened. the trip was already planned before these developments i believe, and there is also the thing to consider that my h is one who can take a really long time to turn around from a stance he adopts.

believe me when i tell you starsky - h did not go on this trip all confident and comfortable with where he's at. the times before, yes, but not this time.

don't you think i should wait to see how it pans out before making the detail of this trip the most important thing here?

i've read the mlc forums - the walls have to start crumbling around them - and i can see the cracks getting bigger. that doesn't raise my expectations one bit. but what it does do is tell me to stay still , stay where i'm at and just focus on what i have to do to keep getting to a better and better place.

i don't want to make the mistake of not hearing what you are really trying to tell me. so if you have it in your heart, i would really like to hear what your suggestions are on a tougher approach.

your views on the "do what works" theory - they do intrigue me the way you put it and i would like to hear more about what you think i could do for "what moves me further along down the path toward a mutually-healthy and committed marriage."

your posts didn't upset me - they helped me to see a lot more than you probably intended. i hope that i haven't offended you in any way with my reply. i just wanted to be honest with what i felt and where i'm at (something i have not always been very good at doing, so practicing that on you also, GRIN)

i hope very much that we can continue a discussion here about this, and look really forward to what comes out of it.

thank you starsky

zig