Aaah KD - my heart goes out to you just as it goes out to my h.
what you described as your w doing - and the reasons she used and the way she went about it - was exactly me when i was in that high anxiety state.
and there was nothing h could do to "satisfy" my needs - because he couldn't take away my anxiety - i had to do that myself.
i remember saying exactly those same things.
granted - mine was caused by the post-concussion symptoms and my reaction to having a movement disorder
but anxiety is the same, no matter what the cause.
I don't feel "good" saying that I gave in to controlling behaviour. Yet it looks that way.
from where i'm standing - you didn't give in to controlling behavior - I promise you that. you simply knew that there is no way around it that would help her anxiety levels to go down
see, it looked that way to my h too - that's why he screamed so much about me controlling him.
sadly sadly, for your wife now and me then - it's the behavior controlling us.
and oddly enough - in the first months of our sitch - i watched h become like how i used to be - and it fascinated me - how high levels of stress (no matter what the source) can create that same anxiety in any person, in an instant
did this start only after the separation or was it there before?
how do you react to it when it happens - before? now?
i can only tell you what it felt like from my point of view - when i was in the throes of it. maybe it can help you to find another way to deal with it.
here's my theory this first part is what it feels like while you're in that state
when a person is already at the peak of the anxiety, i.e.. their brain has basically become overwhelmed and the amygdala (fight or flight response) has kicked in - they are slightly irrational, literally cannot think and have basically shut down.
(as an aside - i think the was and mlc'ers are mostly in that state)
they cling to the familiar (what ever it is) and cannot be flexible and their minds literally cannot move from that state. if during this time another person is arguing with them or even trying to have a casual discussion or get them to decide something - they go into panic mode. they are actually during this time (at least i was) desperately trying to return to normal, because they sense they are not in a normal state
some people can come back to normal, or a less stressed state in as short as 15 or 20 minutes - for some it takes hours, for some days. when they get there, then they can think again.
so my first suggestion to you - is figure out how long it takes your wife to "come down".
when i was in that state: 1. i desperately wanted the pressure OFF -it could be as little as someone trying to ask me where the plates were 2. i wanted to be reassured SO SO bad - it was insane - it's like you are completely ungrounded and [censored] scared and you just want someone to tell you that you're going to be okay 3. i needed space - a lot of space - and the space was to "come down"
it may sound like i am really exaggerating here,, but believe me, i'm not.
when i didn't get the space: I went into full blown "fight mode". really went nuts.
this second part is one of the ways it can lead up to that state also - one of my characteristic was, just like your w's - that i would be fine with an arrangement/agreement made well in advance - really fine with it, and as the event grew closer i got more and more anxious until by the time it was time to do it i was completely losing it. it sounds as if that's what your wife does.
i don't know what the answer to that is - it's not control on her part - i am sure it wasn't on mine. all i know is the more i worked on myself and healed my inner issues, that behavior started to fade away. i still have it - but mildly and i can talk myself down out of it. i remember always being puzzled that why was i originally okay with it and then got so messed up about whatever (for me it could be as little as an appointment made 2 weeks in advance - by the time it came i was so overwhelmed, i would cancel it)
while i've worked on myself, i have wondered if it was a commitment issue on some level - where you commit but you don't really believe in it and so it causes you great anxiety and then you renege on the whole thing
you are already aware that she is treating the symptoms and not the underlying problem, which you are right, stems from early stuff.
you did an amazing thing there - KD, you may not realize it. you actually inadvertently did the best thing you could when you agreed to be flexible and let her have it the way she was more comfortable with.
i think that is the key - her anxiety level will only continue to rise if she senses resistance and you sort of become the "enemy that she has to fight against" in her anxious state. when you backed off, you weren't the enemy any longer - and look what you got in return?
but it continues on - in her continually anxious state you are labelled as a source of anxiety - so the more you back off, the more she can relax and then the more she is able to offer and give.
so step #! for you - stop seeing it as her controlling. start seeing as you being instrumental in lowering her anxiety levels and having a lot of power to do so
sadly my h refused to see this, and so when i was at my worst he pushed the hardest and pushed and pushed - sometimes for up to 2 hrs - by then i was so gone...
about 3 times he made the effort to just take me in his arms and say - it;s alright , let's just take it easy for a few minutes - and it transformed my world - i didn't go into the fight or flight, and within 20 minutes i was okay and "safe" again in myself
i'm not saying it was his job to do it - but in a sense it was his role as my partner to find the best possible way to deal with so that our r could flourish instead of deteriorate.
in the same way - it's not your job to give in to her all the time - but as the father in your family - if this is what works - is your family better off with this gesture or without?
believe me KD - the less anxious she feels - the more she will offer. at the minimum if you verbally back off - saying something light - oh, you know of course we need to discuss this, but how about we do it later and just relax right now about it.
as an end note - i saw this in h from the very beginning - and because i'd been there and saw the signs so strong - i've made it a point in every moment that i can to just back off from any pressure when he's in an anxious state. always - just let it go. because i know it is pointless to add more on when the person is already in overdrive. it feels as if they have all the control - but no - it's the other person who does - the other person has the control to decide if they will push on the issue or not and completely determine the outcome of how negatively or positively it will pan out
okay - once again - long, i'm not even sure what i wrote makes sense and i'm too knackered to read it through, so unedited!!
will stop for a few minutes and wait to see if you reply. and then will tell you what helped me to stop being like that
me 46 H 38 M10yrs T 11 S10 BD ow 8/11 h filed 9/25/12
"if i could define enlightenment briefly, i would say it is the quiet acceptance of what is"
oh my - your second post was in a completely different vein than your first one. so that response was to your first one.
it sounds as if you know a lot about what she is going through and that you have dealt with it amazingly - fully conscious of your choices.
i'll be brief as i have to get some winks and get up awful early
i had a lot of treatment - therapy, hypnotherapy (that actually proved to work the best) and a lot of self searching as you have all witnessed
an anxiety disorder is not easy to get over - and when accompanied by a lot physical symptoms, is even more to overcome - they sort of feed on each other.
in the end, it was my own task to be determined to overcome it. interestingly - i didn't even know i had it until later
have you yourself ever sought out a therapist who specializes in this and gone to talk to them about how YOU can handle each scenario and how your role could help your wife to seek the help she needs for this?
my therapist had really good tools - and she wanted h to come in and talk about it with her -but he simply refused - his stance being - it's you f'ed up not me, i'm not coin anything wrong
it wasn't the wrong or right of what he was doing.
just like we find out in db'ing that there are tools we haven't ever known about to have a successful r, it's the same here- there are always tools and solutions - it's finding out what they are
i may be 'preaching to the choir" and you've already done all that....
me 46 H 38 M10yrs T 11 S10 BD ow 8/11 h filed 9/25/12
"if i could define enlightenment briefly, i would say it is the quiet acceptance of what is"
i walked away from the computer for a minute - and then it hit me - every time h comes closer or shows he wants to be around me, IT SCARES THE [censored] OUT OF ME!
and that confuses me really bad
and then i find myself thinking what's wrong with me, this is what i've been wanting.
anyone else feel like this?
YESSSSSSSS sorry I'm just working through this thread...I'm glad my post helped people it was KD who helped me realise this stuff because he said I wouldn't worry that a friend would "forget about me"
since everyone is posting cainer today, grin, thought i'd put h's here
theme for my h this week is forgiveness - for the weekly and the last 3 days - oh really? it's about bl**dy time
We hang on to things that we ought to let go of. We let go of things that we ought to keep. We all do this, we can't help ourselves. It is the human condition! The 'letting go' bit is not such a problem. If things are really meant to be for us, they come back to us. It's the 'hanging on' bit that we need to be wary of. We must be especially wary of clinging too tightly to anger, resentment, suspicion or disappointment. Don't ask now whether someone deserves to be forgiven, ask whether you deserve the pain of keeping a bad feeling alive.
wish i could send this to him!!!!
haha!!
me 46 H 38 M10yrs T 11 S10 BD ow 8/11 h filed 9/25/12
"if i could define enlightenment briefly, i would say it is the quiet acceptance of what is"
i can tell very easily when he is in a high state of anxiety, especially after "refreshing" with KD about it the last couple of days.
he ranted and raved and ranted and raved. it was a bit odd for me, because he insisted the opposite of what he had said he wanted to do to apply for the financial aid, and kept going on about me being wrong. i want to say that we were both saying the same thing, but he was skating so hard and fast from one end to the other, that i couldn't figure out what he was saying at all. (irrational?)
i really kept cool - didn't have to try, just kept "validating" and saying you're right, until he calmed down.
then there were the taxes - he asked - and i i gave him the answer, and he went on a rant with that one, really laying into me. i think he finally realized what he was doing because he suddenly stopped and said oh well it doesn't matter right now. i just validated and said you're right, it will work out when we start plugging in the numbers. i also took the opportunity to thank him profusely for taking care of all this stuff for 10 yrs, and that even though i'd always been thankful before, i only understood what he had taken on, now when i try to attempt to learn how to do it. he said it had caused him a huge amount of stress
on to the next thing - he was on his way to the board meeting at s's school and he went into such a rant and bitchin' about that, that i was quite taken aback. i just kept validating - and hey, surprise - it eventually calmed him down and he actually got cheerful at the end (i think this rant was a result of my apologizing and thanking him for taking on the stress, because he ended that part by saying dismissively - oh that's all in the past now, we can put that behind us)
right after i got off the phone, mil called. i said to her - i'm a bit breathless, h just finished going off the deep end for over 20 mins. she said - oh you should have seen him here before he left (he moved to their place yesterday) - he's losing it and is already so stressed out around us he can't hold it together. her words were - looks like things are falling apart around him.
i told her - you know mil, i've changed so much - a conversation like that with h would have brought me down, but all i could think through the whole thing was - oh i wish i could get off the phone here. but the best part was i didn't get pulled into it for a second - it was like i was watching from a distance.
i really wish peace and ease for my h. if there's anything i feel right now is sadness and compassion and a genuine desire that if he chooses to take the path he's on, that at least he has some happiness to go along with it.
me 46 H 38 M10yrs T 11 S10 BD ow 8/11 h filed 9/25/12
"if i could define enlightenment briefly, i would say it is the quiet acceptance of what is"
stole this from tonibertha's thread so i have access to it. thanks cadet
Originally Posted By: tonibertha what is mirror work?
Trying to find the best answer for you on this question, I will use something written by one of my friends.by cadet
Originally Posted By: RollercoasterRider
Mirror-Work is not about your relationship and how you interact with others, but it will change how you interact as you change inside; changes in relationships are a byproduct of internal changes.
Mirror-Work is not about fixing. Many of you are focused on flaws and fixing and since you think you have few flaws, you are puzzled. You like yourself. So what? Does that mean you should stop learning and growing? Your body is changing; maybe there are new things you should learn simply about aging, being a parent of teenagers or college students or a parent of new parents. Life moves forward. Should your physician stop reading The New England Journal of Medicine because his flaws are slight?
Self-Focus is not about correcting and fixing all the things wrong with you. It’s about focusing on your Self with Love, loving who you are and embracing life with joy—your individual life.
Redirect your thoughts from those awful fears and images you can’t get out of your mind. But they are more than that. I’m an introvert, so these work for me because they are solitary. It’s about quiet time with my thoughts, talking to God, emptying my thoughts and accepting what comes in and it is a time for my body to relax. Creativity is another great spark: painting, dancing, sculpting, building… Become the builder and put your mind into creation. Writing, journaling, poetry, story-telling… Or exercise: go find the runner’s high, take yoga…
Notice how those are not direct. They aren’t about you having a problem with anger and going to an anger management class where you learn about controlling your anger and what triggers you and maybe some psychology of anger—I’ve heard those classes are a joke anyway. Those techniques are not focusing on problems; they aren’t even focusing on solutions; they focus simply on you.
And you don’t need to think of this Mirror-Work as a journey like a temporary transition. It’s life. It’s the 4th commandment: Remember the Sabbath day, and keep it holy. It’s about carving out a space within your day or week (and life) for rest—Sabbatical. It’s about using that time to focus on you and your relationship with your Higher Power and what it means—whatever it may refer to. Mirror-Work is about Self-Love, not Self-improvement which is a natural byproduct of loving your Self.
Hope that helps.
me 46 H 38 M10yrs T 11 S10 BD ow 8/11 h filed 9/25/12
"if i could define enlightenment briefly, i would say it is the quiet acceptance of what is"
A few years ago... like '46 or something, Maslow put to paper a theory about how people are motivated towards having specific needs met. Just as babies have certain needs, toddlers do, pre-teens, and so on...
A lot of the more up to date personal development programs use at least some variation of this. It really is amazing stuff, considering how unique we believe people are, how this kind of stuff is just intrinsic to humans.
Maslow's theory is ultimately hierarchical, in that we have our basic needs which MUST be met at some level, before we move up to higher levels of needs. In the event that we are not getting our needs at one level, we revert back to at least having those needs met on a lower level.
One particular public speaker, whom basically people either love or hate, refined the theory to encompass six basic human needs and places them in a more cyclical form. IOW, as we have one need met, we move to the next, layering these upon each other. Yet, it appears that generally speaking, each one of us tends to be after one or two specific need in this group as our core needs. Really quite fascinating when one sees this being put to test.
It is in a way, similar to the whole Love Languages theory at the core level. For example, I might crave variety in my life, yet my core desire is for love and connection. Yet right now, I might be looking for stability. (which in a way, I had been a year ago and having met that need, have moved into variety within the last 3 months).
Paring the partners and knowing what each persons core needs are vs. what they are craving right now and comparing that to their partner's core and craving, it can really put a spotlight on where problems might be and how to match with the other person.
Again, giving to the others core and current needs, the receiving partner opens up to meeting the core and current needs for the other.
For example, my W's core need is likely stability. Right now, or at least as a WAS, her craving appears to have been variety.
Well, I was trying to meet my W's need of stability, but she didn't want that any longer. And my need of love and connection had not been met for many years.
So that's just an aspect of some of the many tools out there, along with DB (which really is a great tool on its own) that can help people understand and work in very SBT ways.
