My Story

[MrBond]

You need to get a grip on yourself and stop being afraid. You are dealing with a child (and I'm talking about your W, not your D).

I notice that nobody has mentioned the obvious in terms of your ages. You said you went out with her when she was 18 and you were 30. Have you ever noticed that when she complains to you about "controlling" her, she's talking to you like a rebelious teenager to her father. She doesn't see you as a spouse any more.

Is the OM her age? I have a feeling that she feels that she's missed out on growing up. In fact, I'd make a sure bet with that.

The thing is that you are the adult here. YOU come up with the visitation. YOU come up with the plan. Not her. She's too immature to deal with anything.

[Lost2272]

Waiting…

[Lost2272]

I believe her age is an issue. We did set up the visitation and now the balls in her court. My L said if we don't get a response we will file for temp. orders.

In regards to her behavior, that is exactly how she is acting. Like a teenager. Even in arguements she would act childish.

As for OM, he is 36. I'm 40. W is 28. So still not much difference. She is displaying all of her issues loud and clear.

I need out for my & D'a benefit.

[MrBond]

Regardless how you feel about her, you're going to have to find some way to at least be civil with her for your D's sake.

How did you meet initially? Did she ever bring up complaints before about wanting to go out and you not wanting to participate?

[Lost2272]

I am doing what I am supposed to as far as trying to take care of this for D.

We met at a bar/restaraunt that I used to go to. She was a waitress.

Never had complaints about her wanting to go out. If anything she would complain about me always wanting something to do. If I don't say so myself I'm pretty young for my age. People that guess my age usually guess between 28-36. Her one complaint though was that she didn't have any friends. I never stopped her from anything. We always went out, traveled and such. She never really tried to get friends and always said she loved my big family.

[MrBond]

"Her one complaint though was that she didn't have any friends. "

This is a big one. I can see how that happened. Did she ever go to college?

"I never stopped her from anything."

You may not have stopped her, but she had no way to start because you were always together. Of course, it's by choice, but she didn't have the experiences of going out with people her age and doing the same things as those people. To a certain degree she was conscience about what made you happy. If she stopped hanging out with her usual friends after the two of you got together, it might have made her self conscience about your R.

Learning to make friends is something that you grow to do on your own. You did that when you were young and she didn't have a chance.

How was her relationship with her father and her family? The fact that she still prefers an older man, says something.

[25yearsmlc]

W biggest complaint was control. But during this last weekend it seems as though she wants me to make all the decisions. Isn't that giving me control.

Maybe she isn't used to making the decisions without your input, even if it's not wanted or requested. She's used to you making the choices or criticizing hers...so she's guarded about it. Her growth, like YOURS, won't be totally linear.

It'll come in spurts and zig zags.


When we started dating she was only 18 and I was 30. So I think maybe she turned to me for Stability and control. I never intentionally told her not to do anything. But I did do the finances and made decisions.

Not sure what that^^^ means. Did you CONSULT with her as in ask for her opinion,

or did you just "think you were thinking" about her interests, which isn't the same as putting her on equal footing and voting on things or hashing them out.

I always took our family as a whole into consideration and consulted with her.

Hey this is not a 2 x 4...and No offense, but who wouldn't take their family into consideration? I mean that's sort of basic, right?


From my point of view I thought we were doing things together. As time went on and we grew together she started to grow in her career and maybe didn't need that as much from me. It made me feel as though I wasn't needed as much.

did you show that to her? If so, how?

But I was proud of her and let her know how proud I was and what a great job she was doing. We did argue a lot this past year and she told me that she was constantly worried about getting me mad.

so, are two of your 180s being calmer and less critical?


I have taken control of that anger now. I think it was fear maybe or just letting little things get at me. Now I see what is really important.


Agreed....I read that Anger usually is a reflection of fear. W/you maybe it's Fear of losing control, losing her, losing something...

so the opposite of anger and fear is what? Loving acceptance?



The one thing that im not sure if it has been mentioned is what broke her finally. I'm not sure if it got lost in all my other posts.

It's not on this thread so far, b/c I looked and saw that you had not answered the question though it was asked at least twice.

I emailed private pictures of her that we took in the privacy of our bedroom to her BIL. And he in turn sent me pictures of his W.(my W's sister). And we got caught. I know it was wrong when we did it.

And your bil showed pictures of your wife to others. Did he have your permission to do that? Did you sort of hope he would?

Did your wife know you took the pictures? And she found you looking at her sister's nude photos too? I am trying to make sure I'm clear on what happened.


I'm not proud of it and I feel sad for betraying my W's trust. That is why I am finding it hard to detach, because I am also trying to gain her trust back at the same time.

You can work on regaining her trust AND detach. Detaching does not mean ignoring or not caring. Read up on Detachment b/c it'll help your sitch, imo.

Detaching in your situation is more about you not being so needy at the moment. Or having such a fast "quick fix" approach to this and expecting her to move forward...or "get past it"
See the thing is...

IMO, the photos were just the last straw that pushed her over the edge.




My W says that what I did is worse than cheating on her. She is also afraid that her BIL showed the pictures to everyone he knows and is afraid that people will see her all over the Internet. I don't believe that he did. I think it was just a juvenile thing on our part.

But you do NOT KNOW what he did with her photos, correct?

HE could have spread them all over as there were no restrictions on what he did with your wife's photos.
Also, saying it was "just a juvenile thing to do" is minimizing it. And hey, Just so I know, How old are you now?

Perhaps You did not make it clear to him what he could and could not do b/c it was not a priority of yours or b/c you privately hoped it would go viral.

Some men are into that but I hope they ask their wives. Sorry,

but I can see why your wife feels humiliated, used and mistreated.

My reaction is that It made her into an object of yours that you felt was fine to share or publicize, regardless of how she felt.

Can YOU see that she might view it that way? And you did it to her sister too...

You admit you also have been controlling & had a bad temper, which SHE HAS mentioned to you, so it's a tough combination of traits for her to deal with, wouldn't you say?

The GOOD NEWS is that you can see the changes you need to make as empowering, b/c they are within your control, (whereas she is not).

If I were you, I'd stop making this about her or OM, completely.

If I were you I'd make this ALL about YOUR CHANGES

and those changes, over sufficient time, will = changes she can believe in.



My BIL and W's sister have already reconciled. They pretty much have gone through the same thing. I guess except for the history of my W & I.


I don't think you or anyone else knows what they have gone thru, and they don't have your marital history.

It's not bad news for you that they reconciled,

but it's impossible to compare the situations. Your wife obviously feels differently than her sister did.


My W has to see the BIL at family events and despises him. I told her a couple of times that divorcing me wont make those fears or him go away.


True. But I would not attend events he's at if I were her. He betrayed her AND his wife,

just as you also betrayed her sister. Have you apologized to her sister, btw?

I don't know what to do. I messed this up in the end. But I feel it was both of our doing in the whole relationship.

What? How on earth is this "both of our doing"? Seriously? Um maybe

someday she'll be interested in hearing about what SHE needs to work on, but at this point it's up to YOU to show YOUR changes and not to shift the blame.

THAT approach seems like a "juvenile thing to do", to me. Plus you said that "her biggest complaint was that I'm too controlling"

and later you admit "She was constantly worried I'd lose my temper" so there is a lot more to this that the pictures and SHE DID communicate her dissatisfaction to you on more than one occasion and about more than one thing



No communication from her and me just being angry and arrogant. I am going to a counselor and have been since this started.


Like I said, and like YOU said, she DID communicate with you.

But You didn't change. And Still acting as if her not getting through to you sooner is HER fault, is not helping you. Plus you have no control over her anyhow.

To the extent she did not reach you, My guess is her inability to communicate was created/caused or enabled by your anger.

You just ignored her and until she said the "d" word, no change happened.

here's a tough question. Is there a part of you that would probably keep NOT changing except now you know that there's a OM lurking? Is there a part of you that simply wants to "win"?

Your arrogance may prevent you from bravely digging deep enough to see the depth of the pain you caused, or the other dimensions of the marriage that are not flattering to you. I don't know.

But I know bravely digging deep and looking in the mirror, and facing YOUR issues, are your best shot at restoring your m.

Maybe someday you two can attend Retrovaille but now is not the time to bring it up.


BTW If you blow a gasket every time she says something you don't like, she's not likely to be super open with you.

One of the few helpful comments our marrying priest made to us as we married was,

"Deceit harms marriages, of course. But so does behavior that creates the perceived need to deceive. So if your spouse dents the car, and you go nuts on him about it, the next time it happens, he won't tell you...and whose 'fault' is that, really?"

One of the reasons I am excited about my W asking questions about me is because it is showing me she does care. Which she showed no interest before.

I miss my family and my W's love.

that is a good sign!

I hope you'll continue your own personal work.

I'll post a letter from a WAW to her h. Read it and see if any of it might sound like how your wife feels...that will help shed light on HER point of view

and it'll help you get a more realistic timeline.

I would not expect your wife to trust you for sometime. And I think future photos are out of the question...possibly forever.

Digital Film lasts forever and if your BIL has done nothing to make it up to your wife, then that's a whole other problem.

Anyhow, see what you get out of the following post....and good luck!

[25yearsmlc]

Here's the letter that you might find useful in understanding what your wife might feel like...
(it was written to a different LBS h, not hers...to help HIM get it.)

FROM A WAW TO A LBS HUSBAND WHO HAS CHANGED HIS WAYS, AND WONDERS WHY HIS WAW HAS NOT COME HOME YET AND HOW SHE CAN BE AT ALL INTERESTED IN OM….

When I read your interactions with your wife, I could so easily identify with your wife's feelings/words/sentiments. I have been in her position in my M. I was the ignored, the devalued, the one who was treated as less than. I even got chills when she talked about the FB issues, because I've been there and done that.

One of the things that I have tried my hardest not to do, is not to engage with another man. Not just because of my marriage vows, but because I knew that when I truly engaged in any type of R with another man, it would make it that much harder to ever reconcile with my H.

Because being treated differently (better) than the way he treated me would lessen him so much in my eyes. So, I can see where your W is coming from.

When you've been mistreated to the point where you actually let go of your R enough to let another person into your heart or bed or whatever, it takes a boatload of work to get back on a page where you're recommitted to being with your S - and those uncertainties that she's expressed to you, I don't know if you truly, truly fathom how deep they run.

Six months of getting back on a page where you treat her the way that any wife should be treated does not even scratch the surface of the years, the intrinsic devaluing that occurs when you're systematically mistreated for such a stretch of time.

And I promise you that while you have recommitted and worked for 6 months, your W has simply been trying to get to a point where she can even buy into the changes, where she can even think that you might have changed and not scoff at the thought.

Because when you build up hope again and again and again in your H and he crushes it again and again and again, you develop a thick skin, a protective doubt, a conditioned response to even the slightest, grainiest seed of hope.

You are taught that when you hope, you will be disappointed. When you try, you will fail. You are taught that you will never be what he wants and it is hard to shake what you have come to believe is reality.

And for the changes that you've made to have come only when she walked away and OM became competition, I can definitely see how she can doubly doubt that you truly want to be in a M with her, and not just to win.

Even you today say that you are not sure that you don't just want to win.

Step 1 - figure that sh!t out ASAP. Because if you actually do manage to convince her that you really do want her and really have recommitted to her and you actually just want to win, you'll put her through hell.
_________________

[Lost2272]

The trust is gone on bothe sides. I still want to trust her but realize I probably can't. I am digging in deep and trying to see who I am. I have this whole time. It comes and goes. What I did was wrong and I am trying to learn from my mistakes. I admit that I haven't completely made up for what I did but I am still learning and trying. Right now I am at a point where I need to focus on our D and still try to work on myself. I also need to protect myself. Now it is just a situation where we have to do what is best for our D. And not having me around isn't the answer. I know I cannot control anything but my actions. Maybe one day things will be different, but right now things are the way they are.

[25yearsmlc]

Lost

Please read this post I've written to you. I care about your sitch and I see hope in it but it'll mean reading this and THINKING about it. But know one thing for sure.

We ALL have parts of ourselves that are not parts we are proud of, yours truly included. It takes a tough strong person, a "real man" to really look in the mirror.

It's all I'm asking...

OKAY SO-

You wrote a lot of things JUST THIS MONTH, about how you hoped your wife could see that you were FINALLY realizing how deeply you had hurt her.

You confessed that in counselling you realized how self centered you were being, making this all about how YOU were hurt and afraid,

and how YOU were being affected and not about your wife's feelings at all.

You could not OR WOULD not wrap your brain about the level of betrayal you had done to your wife.

But you seemed to want to "get it". You were bravely staring at some pretty ugly things in you that most of us never want to look at even though we all have some of it inside.

I was impressed and hopeful.

(* For the record, per YOUR WORDS, BEFORE the big photo sharing event w/a man she doesn't trust or even like-

She complained that she was frightened about your temper and that you are critical and controlling.

Do NOT forget that....it's painful but crucial you remember those things

She told you....)

so now let's look at your own words and see how fast and dramatically your short lived "self improvement" efforts fared,

the DAY you learned she was seeing someone else...

I am doing what I am supposed to as far as trying to take care of this for D.

We met at a bar/restaraunt that I used to go to. She was a waitress.

Never had complaints about her wanting to go out. If anything she would complain about me always wanting something to do. If I don't say so myself I'm pretty young for my age. People that guess my age usually guess between 28-36. Her one complaint though was that she didn't have any friends.


um, she had other complaints. You know this b/c you wrote it. Perhaps she meant she was not free to have her own friends, apart from you.

Does it matter now?

I wonder if your wife is testing you and your commitment--if so

then you are not passing my friend. You need decide NOTHING today...



I never stopped her from anything. We always went out, traveled and such. She never really tried to get friends and always said she loved my big family.

Really? Um, okay. Do you have a lot of friends apart from her and you two presenting as a couple? You said, in your own words that your problem in GAL is that you liked doing things as a family.

Here are some other things YOU wrote and I really want you to take a hard look at your words,

all of which were written in the past TEN DAYS...


Good IC session. I don't think I fully understand how bad I hurt W. And she knows I don't understand. That is why she is not ready. I need to try and understand how I hurt her and what she is feeling. I need to try and be safe.

I feel terrible. I feel like the whole time this has been going on I have only been worried about how it is making me feel and not W. I have only been concentrating on what the sitch is doing to me. My actions caused this. I did this to us.

She has been trying to tell me how she feels and what has done to her but I have only been worried about what is happening to us. I hope I can let her know somehow that I realize that now.


A FEW DAYS LATER (you still ignored that WAW letter I posted)... then....you wrote this:


She's been seeing someone. She says they're just friends. But I know the connection is there. A big arguement happened. W ran over my foot with car while leaving. She called police so that she wouldn't get charged with hit & run. Police charged me since I try to stop her from leaving.


Wow, so it's over BECAUSE she's seeing someone...Not someone she claims to love, but b/c you "know the connection is there".

How do you know? Is that b/c he cares about her feelings and "gets it"

Or b/c you are mind reading?

Then, you argued with her and then you say she ran over your foot but YOU got charged.. I practice law and I figured a piece of the puzzle might be missing there...usually police don't arrest the person who was "hit" by a car...

you kind of left out the part about how MAYBE she felt like she had to flee b/c you were physically trying to stop her...so that what? So You could keep arguing?

Do you notice how UNobjective your take on this still is? Do you see how UNhelpful that is to your cause?

You were doing that "blame her" a lot in your earlier thread until the IC you saw finally seemed to get through to you.

IMO THAT PATH is the only path back to reconciling or at least to real growth...

Even after the insights you had from the counselor, the MINUTE your ego got bruised, you went right back to making it all her fault and minimizing your own actions... You still have not told us how you tried to restrain her b/c you did get charged w/it. Which is what you did when you forgot to tell us about sharing her private intimate photos..


W then picked up D from daycare without me knowing. I went to pick her up and she wasn't there. W or FIL wouldn't answer the phone. I was in a panic.

I can see how it might be frightening to you and she certainly could have handled that better. She could have left a note, for instance. But my guess is you frighten her, for real. She's said it before and you admitted it in your IC.

IF that is true, you need to look in the mirror to change that.

What did you do when you say you were in a panic?

I don't think she and her father would all make this stuff up and suddenly "hide" your d from her unless she thought you were out of control.

You did try to physically restrain her from leaving in a car...that's a fact per your own words. OR did you touch her physically? You have to start owning things, somewhere.

Lost, I want your marriage to reconcile or for you to at least learn to be happy and at peace from all this. I'm "on your side", okay? But that means looking at the truth of the situation which is the only way to fix things.



IMO you do sound like you need more professional help and that is NOT an insult.

I've Been there, done that.

Just think though, If I feel, as a stranger, intuitively just from reading your posts, that you sound a bit unhinged, then might your wife fear you could do something "off" to your child?

If I feel, just by reading your posts carefully, that you leave out big chunks of your own personal responsibility and then forget what you said earlier, which Is how we know you omitted crucial details, then might you do that in real life?

I also know women (like Alamo's wife) who abuse that fear, or make it up, only to keep their child away from their ex. IT's wrong and it's terrible. But I don't get that feeling from your wife.

Your own words and posts here careen from one extreme to the other, in short time spans.
I don't get a strong sense of you being centered and balanced, so I'm guessing your wife has at least some valid concerns. You said your wife "needs to feel safe" around you. Her seeing someone else does not change that at all. In fact it makes it more necessary.

Why not see your IC more often and get his/her take on this?


Finally found out D was with W. W filed an order of protection against me. Saying I was dangerous. I am now talking to a lawyer tomorrow. W stated that I was a danger to my D.

I have lost all respect for W. We have had our bad arguements and today was one of them but I have never physically hurt anyone or threatened to do so.


So, what happened at the car when you stated you tried to prevent her from leaving? You yourself admitted to it and you said it was a bad argument b/c she was seeing someone.

BTW, You did not express concern to her then about the D, just the OM...And you were furious enough to try and restrict her movment in anger.

My suggestion, and it's just one---
TRY HARD TO EMPATHIZE WITH HER b/c even if it is over, you cannot demonize her.

I do think she feared you'd call the cops on her for running over her foot (something that my son and brother have both done to me accidentally, NOT in anger and not too painful incidentally.)

So is her calling the cops to fend them off, really so out of the realm of earth?

I don't think it was the best choice but I wasn't there and didnt' see your behavior.

Just THIS MONTH you admitted that she fears you and has said so in the past. So it does not strike me as her being vengeful or crazy.

Just not well thought out maybe.

Speaking of NOT well thought out....


W won. I dislike her so much right now and made me want a Divorce.


Look at that statement^^^ CAREFULLY...is that the man you want to be?

She "WON"...??? Won what?

So this is a contest! That hits the nail on the head in the letter I sent you from another WAW...please Lost,

read that letter again and imagine your wife writing it b/c she sure could have, imo.

AND Then you say she "Made me want a divorce" so it's still all her fault.

Wow, so it's All about her and OM now. Not you! NOTHING YOU DID! Um, remember what you wrote less than 2 weeks ago about how your actions lead to all this? Remember that part?

Lost, you are better than this. Pick yourself up, dust yourself off, be the best father you can be

and become a man only a fool would leave.

The OM is an escape hatch she felt she needed b/c let's face it, you have NOT been the h you thought you were.

Deep down, just this month, you knew that.

Why not get back to that part of the growth and become the man you were meant to become, instead of being an angry bitter pouting man/boy having a tantrum b/c his ego is wounded, who will suddenly

change & revise the whole marital history into one of her "cheating!!!" which would be a lie, and would serve no one. And it's beneath you.

Own your life and your mistakes and let her own hers.

Be a great dad. No woman is unmoved by that.

And never forget this----

considering the amount of forgiving you seemed to expect/demand from her

with mere weeks of inconsistent DBing effort on your end,

try giving HER the benefit of the doubt

and SLOW DOWN to take a breath...

Become the best man you can become, learn to let go of the past, hope she'll do the same so you two can go "from this day forward" like the marriage vows tell us...

Forgive yourself and others, and Once you KNOW you've put your ego and wounded pride aside,

and become a man only a fool would leave,

then you can hold your head high and know you gave it your best, and leave the results up to God.