I think you and I were cut from the same mold. I'm the LD in my marriage and my H is the HD. I had sexual abuse in my past, and in the past, my H has sexually done things that I've specifically asked him not to do, or told him I didn't like... and he'd do it anyway.
I've never, ever had the experience of sleeping through sex. I'm not doubting you, it's just that that couldn't happen with me. If you sleep THAT deeply that someone can have sex with you without you waking up... could there be other things going on in your life that's causing you to sleep so deeply, and maybe affecting your sex drive?
I have to say that until I got over the sexual abuse I experienced in my past, I couldn't fix my marriage. I had THOUGHT I had gotten over it... but until I read Michele's book, I didn't realize that I just don't experience desire the way mainstream American culture conveys it. I don't get going, I don't start feeling 'physcial desire' until things get going. And because I don't, I'd rarely initiate sex... cuz I didn't feel 'desire' for sex...
Anyway, once I forgave myself for being completely NORMAL, I understood that the anger I would feel when my H would intiate any kind of physical touch was a defense mechanism gone haywire. My battle to fix my SSM was with myself and the haywire defense mechanism, NOT MY H. Once the sex got back on track, he was in a much better frame of mind to listen to me and hear me, and understand how he had hurt me, too. Which made it soooooo much nicer to have sex, and for me to WANT to have sex...
But I understand well your anger and your resentment, and I do know that you can work through it.
Your husband isn't a knight in shining armour. He's a man, with his own set of thoughts, feelings, great points, and drawbacks. Just like you.
You know the Don Henely song where he sings,
You ain't no picnic either, babe That's one of the things I love about you
The time will come around When we need to settle down We've got to get off This marry-go-round...
That's where you and your H are. Romantic love exists for about one to two years... and then life comes in and takes charge, and you've got to figure out how to keep YOURSELF in the game, and not depend on the other person to do it for you. That sounds simple, but it's a tough concept to put into practice.
You'll get there. You wanting to find answers is the biggest part of the battle.
A. Our ability to answer this question is limited, as so little research has focused on husband-rapists. It is, however, clear from the reports of the survivors that it is not due to a wife's withholding of sex (the most common myth). Most women who report being raped by their husbands also report having consensual sexual intercourse with them. Researchers who have spoken with husband-rapists conclude that husband-rapists rape to reinforce their power, dominance, or control over their wife or family, or to express anger.
Stereotypes about women and sex - such as: women enjoy forced sex, women say "no" when they really mean "yes," it's a wife's duty to have sex - continue to be reinforced in our culture through both mainstream and pornographic media. Such messages not only mislead men into believing that they should ignore a woman's protests, but also mislead women into believing that they themselves must have "sent the wrong signals," blaming themselves for unwanted sexual encounters, or believing that they are "bad wives" for not enjoying sex against their will.
This is not referring to half awake half asleep sex that stops when you wake up. You are really stretching the definition of rape - why is it you CHOOSE to see your H's behavior in such a negative light, when it should be clear by now that at least some other people can view it in a very different light - it's clearly something that's open to interpretation.
By your own account, your H is a prince of a guy who is remorseful and willing to seek counseling - I bet not one in a hundred men in the same situation would be willing to do that. So why are you in such a rush to end your marriage (which you WILL do if you cut out all sex and move to another room and continue in this bitter anger without reexamining your beliefs). Don't your children deserve that you give it a more honest effort than this - and doesn't he?
LD: Just a question out of curiosity here...what do you make of all the people who wrote in and said that they did not mind being fondled while they were sleeping, or being woken up with sex, etc?
I am not saying that you are wrong. I am just saying that there are a LOT of people out there who don't share your idea of sleep sex being offensive. I agree with you that if you said he shouldn't do that, then he shouldn't do that. He CAN control himself, you know.
As far as this knight in shining armour bit. I think you should kick that idea to the curb, pronto. This is a dead end road for you. There is NO husband or wife who, years after marriage, still fits in the knight in shining armour mold. You are being totally unrealistic. You are holding on tightly to this anger and resentment so that you are excused from moving forward and examining what things YOU have done in this marriage to make it go downhill, imo.
You can't un-do what he did. You can't even control the idiot mistakes that he has made in the past. All you can do is make yourself a better person and wife and hope that he is smart enough to do the same.
One more suggestion: I think the two of you are in desperate need of joint counseling. I wonder why it was just you going by yourself??
I also wanted to point out to you that my own H has hurt me beyond what I thought I could endure or get past. I am happy to report that we have made it through to the other side. Two years ago, I don't think I could have even envisioned being where we are today. We are totally different people.
I think you all need to really think about what LD is saying here. She's not calling her H a violent rapist. She's saying that he is having or trying to have sex with her against her will. I don't care what you call that... any way you look at it, it's a problem.
I understand what you are saying. I understand your anger, your hurt, and your utter shock that anyone would even think to suggest you climb back in bed with that man. When I was sexually molested, what you described is exactly how it happened with me. In my sleep. I'd awake, and there he'd be. In my case, because I had no power to fix the situation, as I was a child, the way I learned how to deal with it was not to sleep at night. I don't want to see you get to that point.
I think there are layers of problems here. But first and foremost, you just need to take some time to decide for yourself if you are going to stay in your marriage. If you decide you want to make your marriage work, then to have a successful one, you are going to have to get over your anger, and learn how to forgive your H.
There have been times in my past when my H would be doing his thing and I'd be laying beneath him with tears streaming down my face, and he never noticed. I thought the same way you did... how the hell could he not notice that? How could he go ahead and have sex with me when he KNEW I didn't want to.... how could he do that and claim to love me? That just did not, in any way, shape, or form, compute in my head.
I know exactly how you feel. Believe me, I do. All I can tell you is, if you want to, there is a way through all of this. I know there is, I made it through, and it was the damn hardest thing I've ever done in my life, and it was worth it.
But first, take all the time you need to decide if you want to be 'right in regard to your views and feelings on this matter,' or do you want to solve the problems you and your H are having and save your marriage. You can't have both.
This isn't about people agreeing with you on whether or not you were raped by your H. This is about you and your H finding it in yourselves to work together to save your marriage. You can forgive each other of anything, if you are willing to forgive. It's not a bartering operation -- "if you become a certain way, for a certain time, then I'll forgive you."
It doesn't work that way... it can't. You must first decide to forgive, then work everyday at being a forgiving person. Your feelings and resentments are not going to fade over night. You have to remind yourself daily that you are going to love your husband in spite of your feelings. Some days you'll be better at it than others. Some days he's going to piss you off so bad that you could give a hoot less if his pecker dried up to a shrivel and fell off his body.
In the meantime, continue to see your counselor so you can work through your feelings of anger, resentment and hurt. I think it is important that your H understand just how deeply he has hurt you, and how violated and betrayed you feel by that. But conversely, you also need to understand that in his own way, he feels exactly the same way you do. I'm not saying what he did to you is right, but try to see that what he was feeling drove him to make some very poor choices.
The two of you will get no where in your marriage if you can not set the resentment and power and control issues aside. That's a tough thing to do, because often times we are not even aware of the fact that we are doing that to each other. It takes practice... you know that saying 'a good marriage takes a lot of work?' That's what this is. This... this is the work part, and it is really, really f%#cking hard.
Do you see where I am coming from? I understand your feelings. I understand your anger. They all are completely valid. Now all you have to do is decide, do you want to be right, or do you want to solve the problem? Once you make that decision, then we can help you. Until that time, you just have to sit up there on the fence by yourself.
Quote: You are really stretching the definition of rape
All I can say is I did not come here to debate whether or not I was raped! I came here for support and guidance in being able to put it all behind me and moving forward positively. Just the name Divorce Busting sounds like a group of people who are fighting to save their marriages. Instead, I've been having to defend what is very valid and real to me. Can't you see by my having to defend myself that it's not helping me move forward? I am not stretching any definitions. If and when I say no to H, he waits until I am asleep, usually dead of the night at 3am, and rapes me. Rape does not have to be violent! It says right on the website that if the person is unconscious or asleep, that it's rape. Rape is nonconcentual sex for God's sake! You are NOT in my bed... so please, just accept what I'm saying and stop bashing me. It's only prolonging my anger towards my H.
Quote: What do you make of all the people who wrote in and said that they did not mind being fondled while they were sleeping, or being woken up with sex, etc? I think the two of you are in desperate need of joint counseling.
I think it's wonderful that there are many out there who aren't plagued with my sensitivity to sex. It's truly wonderful that so many spouses love to be woken up, as my H loves it as well. For the first few years of our R, I welcomed his touch and initiations to wake me up! However, once he crossed the line, which was the first time he proceeded when I didn't want to... things dramatically changed in our bed. I believe my therapist will be seeing us jointly as soon as she has had a few sessions with H and I have calmed down and welcome it. The last few sessions for me have been fairly intense and would not have been with H sitting there.
Quote: You are going to have to get over your anger, and learn how to forgive your H. Decide if you want to be 'right in regard to your views and feelings on this matter,' or do you want to solve the problems you and your H are having and save your marriage. You can't have both. This is the work part, and it is really, really f%#cking hard.
Thank you Corri, you know just what to say! I am trying to get over my anger and to forgive him. In fact, I think I must have already forgiven him or else I couldn't lie next to him at night. H has already agreed that I am right and acknowledges that what he was doing was sexual abuse. We are working on saving our marriage... and yes I couldn't agree more with you that this is really hard work.
Thank you everyone for your posts. They've helped me. Can I just ask one thing?! If you want to voice your opinion of whether or not you enjoy being woken up or find it offensive, could you PLEASE post in the Let sleeping dogs lie? forum, under Sexual Issues? That would be appreciated! I need this thread to be as positive as possible. Thanks for understanding
Okay, believe it or not, I think I can offer up to you some useful advice as we've had similar experiences. I'd be more than happy to chew on it with you.
So, you've decided to save your marriage, and I believe you are right when you say that you have started down the path of forgiveness just by making that decision.
I'm going to ask you some questions, not because I want you to defend yourself, your position, or because I want you to understand him. I'm going to ask you these questions so that you may begin to find a process that will work for you to leave it all behind.
1. You have had some terrible sexually related traumas happen to you in your past and with your husband.
How does that make you feel about yourself? Not THEM, about yourself? Are you angry? Sad? Powerless? Keep this in the context of you, not the perpatrators.
What makes you feel love? What do you mean when you say that someone needs to honor and respect you? How? What is your expectation in regard to this?
Thank you Corri, you are someone I hoped would respond to my plea for help. I can see that you have come along way and I can only hope to progress as you have.
How do I feel about myself?: My ability to trust 100% is handicapped. I feel lonely, misunderstood, betrayed, scared and unappreciated. Yet, I still feel strong, determined, proud, and independent.
I feel loved when: I am shown appreciation and affection. I am romanced and wanted, trusted, listened to, and my feelings are validated.
Quote: What do you mean when you say that someone needs to honor and respect you? How? What is your expectation in regard to this?
Hmmm, I mean that when and if I object to doing something, that my decision not to participate is accepted and final. I am treated as a woman and not a possession. My expectation in regard to this is that it should not have changed when I accepted his proposal.
I hope that is what you were looking for. So I guess now I need to come up with ways that my H can make me feel loved so that I will feel like ML? I also need to find out what makes him feel loved, so I can give him those things. This is where my scared feeling comes in - this is alot of work!
Read that Five Love Languages book by Chapman - very easy read - talks about the different ways people express and like to receive love - and how if you aren't speaking your spouse's "language", they can't hear you. Deceptively simple but powerful concept. For instance, the guy who expresses his love by Acts of Service - washing your car, bringing you coffee in the morning - married to the woman who prefers to receive Words of Affirmation. She's mad because he's not saying ILY all the time and sending her gushy cards, while he's showing his love every day with his actions and she's missing it.
I have a freelance project I have to finish up today, and just wanted to let you know I will be responding to your post... but I gotta get this stuff done first. It might be a day or so, so please be patient with me.
You may want to read my thread in the meantime, if you haven't already:
It's an honest outpouring of what, I bet, your H would love from you. No criticisms there, just honest heart-felt responses. It may clue you in on what is going through your H's head. I have found in my pursuit of finding my own answers that the best way to get what *I* want is to make sure my H is getting what HE wants first.... I just had to figure out what that was. Once you begin, you can't really figure out who is doing what first, and it becomes a moot point.
Anyway, I'll be back in touch soon. Hang in there, girl. You'll get through this.
