Last night, W was sitting outside and I had just finished watching a movie. I decided that I'd go talk to W about how she's been treating me the past few days.
I started by telling her that I realize we are done. She has told me that numerous times. She wants us to remain friends and for us to co-habitate and raise our kids. I got it...message recieved, loud and clear. Then I told her that I have felt over the last few days that she doesn't want to be a friend - or even be around me at all. This^^ implies that a 'friends only' r is okay with you, but that you want her to be a "nicer friend"....but I thought you wanted a marriage?
She acknowledged that it is hard for her to be around me for extended periods of time (i.e. when I have days off from work), because she feels like I have these expectations of her. you mean where she's not rude or self absorbed and interacts like she's part of the family? THOSE expectations? OMG, get Sandi on here... ------------------------------------------------------
Then we got to talking about the "vicious cycle" that we are in. We both agreed it was happening. Here's how it goes:
1. She constantly feels like she has to do certain things or act a certain way to prevent me from getting upset and to keep me "pacified", so we don't get into an argument. I think this started 4-5 years ago.
1a. When a friend (or W) doesn't talk to me, or avoids me, is short with me, or needs to drink to be around me, I naturally wonder what I did that made them not want to talk to me. My dear NavyGuy, THIS^^^ belief is a problem...b/c YOU are not the reason she acts this way.
Does it really happen w/a lot of others in your life? At work or church, are there a lot of folks who avoid you? Really?
Why must you assume you are the cause? You just aren't.
She's not active or happy elsewhere, is she? REALLY? And I don't mean after 2 bottles of wine...I mean genuinley content.
You assume you are the cause and I don't buy it. BUT I DO BUY That a root of your issues is you assuming far too much responsibility for HER happiness...and it has backfired on you.
2. I start trying to figure out what I did wrong and/or what is bothering W. By doing so, I start "trying" too hard. I become needy/clingy/etc.
so how is this belief system and the path it creates, wherein YOU are the "be all" of HER happiness/sadness pattern, and how YOU MAKE HER behave certain ways, working out for you?
Is it helping/working well? Is it even accurate? IS it possible you just need to own YOUR STUFF and not one bit of hers?
There's got to be a statute of limitations on how long she gets to blame you for, 1) like crap that happened long ago; and
2) or has stopped already or
3) that you were not truly responsible for anyhow...
This makes W feel even more like she has to act a certain way to keep me from getting upset, which in turn makes her more upset and makes her pull further away (i.e. walking around the house with the headphones, sitting out on the deck by herself, drinking, etc.). so ALL of ^^^ this is still your fault? Wow, Navy I can't decide if it's self centeredness or a martyr complex but my friend, you have to get the blinders off...
3. Her behaviors make me even more upset, and on top of that, I still have no idea what I did that is causing her behavior. Eventually I get to the point where I "need" to talk to her about how she is treating me. No you do not really "need" to talk to her. She knows she's mean to you! She does not care to change...which means she's not going to be kind.
SO Just don't tolerate it anymore and get the heck out of Dodge. But dont' hold your breath about her "Waking up."
Even if she does get it, it may simply be too hard for her to look inward. She says she has been miserable for 6 years but hasn't done a thing to improve HER LIFE, let alone the marriage.
Do you have Asperger's? Are you a fool or unhygienic? What is it that is so odd and annoying about you? My GUESS is that it's not you and that you do a lot of false analysis based on your premise that HER behavior is caused by you.
And btw, even for a roomate, she's just a drag. She's rude. And for a woman who is technically your wife, she and you are setting a bad example for the kids. For the life of me, idk how it can be better to live the way SHE wants to and say that is best for the kids?
4. I initiate a talk with her. These talks used to have the overarching theme of "W, I don't understand why you are treating me like this and why you don't want to work on our M". Lately, they have had the theme of "W, I can't continue living this way. If you are so miserable that you feel you have to treat me the way you are and/or avoid me, then we need to start working on ending our M". To W, there is no difference between these themes. All she hears from me is "W, change your behavior to please me, or get out of the house". So, words alone are not helping? So, what does that tell you? I get that she cannot hear what YOU say. So what are you going to DO about that?
5. Our talk ends up going nowhere, and we both get upset and defensive. She ends up pulling all the skeletons out of the closet, and I tell her that those things happened 5 years ago, I owned & apologized for them, fixed the things I was doing wrong, and don't understand why she can't accept what she has in front of her today. What she hears: "W, I have done all this work to fix our M, and you continue to do nothing except dwell on the past...I am right, you are wrong".
even though I agree with the CONTENT of that assessment, it's not helpful to have these discussions. Your words are not getting thru to her, period.
I felt the same way when my h was being kind of crazy selfish. My wonderful loving arguments, AND OR my brilliant insights and cogent articulate points, made no difference. The words did not matter. He could not "hear" me...
my actions were a lot more noticeable.
6. The talk/argument eventually ends, but I have just further reinforced the idea in W's head that she needs to act a certain way to keep me happy, and she resents that.
ever think she just wants a carte blanche on how she can treat you?
b/c no matter how you mask it all, or word it, in effect, that is what she wants...and no one thinks you are off track by expecting more. Needing and wanting more are normal reactions to a lousy situation. You've been at this a LONG time... Both of us are stressed, all the time.
nightmare for all--kids included
7. --- This has been happening to us over and over and over. I wanted to post this because I think it could help someone out there. This is "what not to do" - and if you take a hard look at the basic principles of DBing, they exist to stop this cycle. I bet a lot of people are doing this same thing - but it's so hard to see it happening when you're caught in the middle of it.
I don't blame W for this cycle, and I don't blame myself either. It's just been happening, and we're both caught in the middle of it. You CAN change your life, Navy...you CAN change this situation. Don't keep giving her all your power and the power over the family...
Yes, I have made myself a better man, father, and husband. I am a good person that deserves to be loved and respected. But when this cycle is happening, none of that matters...[b]in fact, it probably worked against me, and caused the cycle to get worse.[/b]
WTH??? Stop that wacky thinking. You are NOT to blame for her actions. You can stop "needing to tell her" THE OBVIOUS=
Having endless talks about her being a witch to you, but you "expecting more" is not helping. You seem to think that you wanting a real marriage, or even friendly behavior, needs explaining. It doesn't.
The talks that suggest you need to get her to get that, are a bit odd and clearly counter productive. So snap out of it my friend.
STOP THE CYCLE ---------------------------------------------
After W and I had defined and agreed on the vicious cycle, we started to talk about what we could do to break it and make our living situation acceptable for both of us. Neither of us had an answer - so I asked her if she would be willing to go talk to someone with me to help figure it out. She said yes.
I have IC today - so I plan to go over this with her and see if she has a recommendation for someone that can help us.
I don't have any hope of saving our M at this point - this counseling will strictly be to see if we can come up with a plan that works for both of us. It may even cause us to realize that the "plan" is unfeasible and that we need to D. I told W that I can either get some names of counselors and she can call them and find whomever she's comfortable with, or I can set up the appt. She told me to set up the appt.
small example of you, again, taking on the job of getting HER a c appt. I mean, really? This is part of your cycle. You take on HER needs and never fill your own, which you resent, but deny.
And that denied need converts into overt neediness and clingling and she pulls farther away. BE a tad indifferent. Let her make her own dang appointment and if she does, good. If not, so what?
You go to yours...that's it. From there, see what develops but get out of this cycle.
While I think a good mc is usually a positive,
I do not expect a c to help this b/c you want a marriage but imo, your wife wants a roof over her head, a clean house with bills paid, and a babysitter...sorry
I said ok, and then went to bed. W came in a few minutes later and asked me if I was ok, then she said "sorry I've upset you". It was a real apology - unsolicited and without sarcasm. I told her that she didn't need to apologize...it's not her fault...it's nobody's fault. let her apologize. It means she owns something. Don't deny her that bit of adulthood-the part where she starts to see her own issues and owns them.
Do not stunt or prevent her growth in the misguided belief that you are being forgiving. You can forgive her - but hold her accountable.
Then I said I was sorry for making her feel like she needed to act a certain way to make me happy, and I went to sleep.
hang in there...
Navy, there is PURE GOLD in 25's detailed post to you. I hope you'll print that out and read it often, and pray that you'll begin to take this stuff to heart and decide to being to slog your way out of this mess. YOU WILL BE OKAY, with or without your wife, Navy. As a wise poster around here used to say, "You can handle it."
