Thread #7 - What goes down, might come up.

[scaredsilly]

Navyguy, it might help you both to look at the book, "codependent no more". It has helped me see that I was letting too much of my H's moods and happiness (or lack thereof) effect my happiness.

[25yearsmlc]

Last night, W was sitting outside and I had just finished watching a movie. I decided that I'd go talk to W about how she's been treating me the past few days.

I started by telling her that I realize we are done. She has told me that numerous times. She wants us to remain friends and for us to co-habitate and raise our kids. I got it...message recieved, loud and clear.

Then I told her that I have felt over the last few days that she doesn't want to be a friend - or even be around me at all.

This^^ implies that a 'friends only' r is okay with you, but that you want her to be a "nicer friend"....but I thought you wanted a marriage?


She acknowledged that it is hard for her to be around me for extended periods of time (i.e. when I have days off from work), because she feels like I have these expectations of her.

you mean where she's not rude or self absorbed and interacts like she's part of the family? THOSE expectations? OMG, get Sandi on here...
------------------------------------------------------

Then we got to talking about the "vicious cycle" that we are in. We both agreed it was happening. Here's how it goes:

1. She constantly feels like she has to do certain things or act a certain way to prevent me from getting upset and to keep me "pacified", so we don't get into an argument. I think this started 4-5 years ago.

1a. When a friend (or W) doesn't talk to me, or avoids me, is short with me, or needs to drink to be around me, I naturally wonder what I did that made them not want to talk to me.

My dear NavyGuy, THIS^^^ belief is a problem...b/c YOU are not the reason she acts this way.

Does it really happen w/a lot of others in your life? At work or church, are there a lot of folks who avoid you? Really?

Why must you assume you are the cause? You just aren't.

She's not active or happy elsewhere, is she? REALLY? And I don't mean after 2 bottles of wine...I mean genuinley content.

You assume you are the cause and I don't buy it. BUT I DO BUY That a root of your issues is you assuming far too much responsibility for HER happiness...and it has backfired on you.


2. I start trying to figure out what I did wrong and/or what is bothering W. By doing so, I start "trying" too hard. I become needy/clingy/etc.


so how is this belief system and the path it creates, wherein YOU are the "be all" of HER happiness/sadness pattern, and how YOU MAKE HER behave certain ways, working out for you?

Is it helping/working well? Is it even accurate? IS it possible you just need to own YOUR STUFF and not one bit of hers?

There's got to be a statute of limitations on how long she gets to blame you for, 1) like crap that happened long ago; and

2) or has stopped already or

3) that you were not truly responsible for anyhow...


This makes W feel even more like she has to act a certain way to keep me from getting upset, which in turn makes her more upset and makes her pull further away (i.e. walking around the house with the headphones, sitting out on the deck by herself, drinking, etc.).

so ALL of ^^^ this is still your fault? Wow, Navy I can't decide if it's self centeredness or a martyr complex but my friend, you have to get the blinders off...

3. Her behaviors make me even more upset, and on top of that, I still have no idea what I did that is causing her behavior. Eventually I get to the point where I "need" to talk to her about how she is treating me.

No you do not really "need" to talk to her. She knows she's mean to you!
She does not care to change...which means she's not going to be kind.

SO Just don't tolerate it anymore and get the heck out of Dodge. But dont' hold your breath about her "Waking up."

Even if she does get it, it may simply be too hard for her to look inward. She says she has been miserable for 6 years but hasn't done a thing to improve HER LIFE, let alone the marriage.

Do you have Asperger's? Are you a fool or unhygienic? What is it that is so odd and annoying about you? My GUESS is that it's not you and that you do a lot of false analysis based on your premise that HER behavior is caused by you.

And btw, even for a roomate, she's just a drag. She's rude. And for a woman who is technically your wife, she and you are setting a bad example for the kids. For the life of me, idk how it can be better to live the way SHE wants to and say that is best for the kids?


4. I initiate a talk with her. These talks used to have the overarching theme of "W, I don't understand why you are treating me like this and why you don't want to work on our M". Lately, they have had the theme of "W, I can't continue living this way. If you are so miserable that you feel you have to treat me the way you are and/or avoid me, then we need to start working on ending our M". To W, there is no difference between these themes. All she hears from me is "W, change your behavior to please me, or get out of the house".

So, words alone are not helping? So, what does that tell you? I get that she cannot hear what YOU say. So what are you going to DO about that?


5. Our talk ends up going nowhere, and we both get upset and defensive. She ends up pulling all the skeletons out of the closet, and I tell her that those things happened 5 years ago, I owned & apologized for them, fixed the things I was doing wrong, and don't understand why she can't accept what she has in front of her today. What she hears: "W, I have done all this work to fix our M, and you continue to do nothing except dwell on the past...I am right, you are wrong".


even though I agree with the CONTENT of that assessment, it's not helpful to have these discussions. Your words are not getting thru to her, period.

I felt the same way when my h was being kind of crazy selfish. My wonderful loving arguments, AND OR my brilliant insights and cogent articulate points, made no difference. The words did not matter. He could not "hear" me...

my actions were a lot more noticeable.

6. The talk/argument eventually ends, but I have just further reinforced the idea in W's head that she needs to act a certain way to keep me happy, and she resents that.

ever think she just wants a carte blanche on how she can treat you?

b/c no matter how you mask it all, or word it, in effect, that is what she wants...and no one thinks you are off track by expecting more. Needing and wanting more are normal reactions to a lousy situation. You've been at this a LONG time...
Both of us are stressed, all the time.


nightmare for all--kids included

7. ---
This has been happening to us over and over and over. I wanted to post this because I think it could help someone out there. This is "what not to do" - and if you take a hard look at the basic principles of DBing, they exist to stop this cycle. I bet a lot of people are doing this same thing - but it's so hard to see it happening when you're caught in the middle of it.

I don't blame W for this cycle, and I don't blame myself either. It's just been happening, and we're both caught in the middle of it.

You CAN change your life, Navy...you CAN change this situation. Don't keep giving her all your power and the power over the family...


Yes, I have made myself a better man, father, and husband. I am a good person that deserves to be loved and respected. But when this cycle is happening, none of that matters...[b]in fact, it probably worked against me, and caused the cycle to get worse.[/b]


WTH??? Stop that wacky thinking. You are NOT to blame for her actions. You can stop "needing to tell her" THE OBVIOUS=

Having endless talks about her being a witch to you, but you "expecting more" is not helping. You seem to think that you wanting a real marriage, or even friendly behavior, needs explaining. It doesn't.

The talks that suggest you need to get her to get that, are a bit odd and clearly counter productive. So snap out of it my friend.

STOP THE CYCLE
---------------------------------------------

After W and I had defined and agreed on the vicious cycle, we started to talk about what we could do to break it and make our living situation acceptable for both of us. Neither of us had an answer - so I asked her if she would be willing to go talk to someone with me to help figure it out. She said yes.

I have IC today - so I plan to go over this with her and see if she has a recommendation for someone that can help us.

I don't have any hope of saving our M at this point - this counseling will strictly be to see if we can come up with a plan that works for both of us. It may even cause us to realize that the "plan" is unfeasible and that we need to D. I told W that I can either get some names of counselors and she can call them and find whomever she's comfortable with, or I can set up the appt. She told me to set up the appt.


small example of you, again, taking on the job of getting HER a c appt. I mean, really? This is part of your cycle. You take on HER needs and never fill your own, which you resent, but deny.

And that denied need converts into overt neediness and clingling and she pulls farther away. BE a tad indifferent. Let her make her own dang appointment and if she does, good. If not, so what?

You go to yours...that's it. From there, see what develops but get out of this cycle.

While I think a good mc is usually a positive,

I do not expect a c to help this b/c you want a marriage but imo, your wife wants a roof over her head, a clean house with bills paid, and a babysitter...sorry

I said ok, and then went to bed. W came in a few minutes later and asked me if I was ok, then she said "sorry I've upset you". It was a real apology - unsolicited and without sarcasm. I told her that she didn't need to apologize...it's not her fault...it's nobody's fault.

let her apologize. It means she owns something. Don't deny her that bit of adulthood-the part where she starts to see her own issues and owns them.

Do not stunt or prevent her growth in the misguided belief that you are being forgiving. You can forgive her - but hold her accountable.


Then I said I was sorry for making her feel like she needed to act a certain way to make me happy, and I went to sleep.

hang in there...

[25yearsmlc]

My thoughts...in reverse order.

When she apologizes, I think a lot of time the tendency is try to help her alleviate the need for apologizing. So you say ... "you doesn't need to apologize." Stop that. Just say, "thanks for saying that or something like that." By saying she didn't need to apologize you just minimized things and it is PART of your cycle. It takes the wind our of her sails and the reason for doing it is to try to keep the peace. You turn what she said and make it about you. Maybe she feels the need to apologize....by all means let her.


Well said...

You are still looking at someone else to make the D choice for you. You have presented your situation here and even people like 25 say it might be time to move on. yet you are looking for someone else to help push you two along.

As for the cycle. It starts and ends with you, unfortunately. Because of expectations and "just wanting to know" but your Wife is taking an immature approach to it.

She is being conflict avoidant. Conflict isn't deadly to a marriage, but how you fight can be. I mean a lot of people here say "we never fought." what you are really saying is that we never resolved conflict.

the 2 couples who told me they "never fought" both got divorced and the person who said "we never fought" was shocked by the WAS. I was not shocked.

One of the few helpful things the priest who married us said, was

"the number of conflicts in a marriage isn't important. Life throws more curve balls to some couples. But HOW you resolve those conflicts will be a HUGE FACTOR in whether your m is a happy one."

In a healthy relationship, you should be able to express your needs to your partner, and the partner should be able to answer you.

In your case, You W assumes your needs or you don't articulate them. Then your W reacts to that by not addressing what's going on but assuming. She then acts out. You react, etc. she reacts, etc. You see the cycle.

You can break it, but her going to IC isn't the whole part of it.

i know this gets asked all the time, but how did you guys meet? how were you different?

i wish I had more answers for you.

just wanted to add the .02 about conflict resolution and problem solving approaches. How does your wife solve problems when you are not around?

And when you are together, what does she do differently, if you know?

[Starsky309]

Last night, W was sitting outside and I had just finished watching a movie. I decided that I'd go talk to W about how she's been treating me the past few days.

I started by telling her that I realize we are done. She has told me that numerous times. She wants us to remain friends and for us to co-habitate and raise our kids. I got it...message recieved, loud and clear.

Then I told her that I have felt over the last few days that she doesn't want to be a friend - or even be around me at all.

This^^ implies that a 'friends only' r is okay with you, but that you want her to be a "nicer friend"....but I thought you wanted a marriage?


She acknowledged that it is hard for her to be around me for extended periods of time (i.e. when I have days off from work), because she feels like I have these expectations of her.

you mean where she's not rude or self absorbed and interacts like she's part of the family? THOSE expectations? OMG, get Sandi on here...
------------------------------------------------------

Then we got to talking about the "vicious cycle" that we are in. We both agreed it was happening. Here's how it goes:

1. She constantly feels like she has to do certain things or act a certain way to prevent me from getting upset and to keep me "pacified", so we don't get into an argument. I think this started 4-5 years ago.

1a. When a friend (or W) doesn't talk to me, or avoids me, is short with me, or needs to drink to be around me, I naturally wonder what I did that made them not want to talk to me.

My dear NavyGuy, THIS^^^ belief is a problem...b/c YOU are not the reason she acts this way.

Does it really happen w/a lot of others in your life? At work or church, are there a lot of folks who avoid you? Really?

Why must you assume you are the cause? You just aren't.

She's not active or happy elsewhere, is she? REALLY? And I don't mean after 2 bottles of wine...I mean genuinley content.

You assume you are the cause and I don't buy it. BUT I DO BUY That a root of your issues is you assuming far too much responsibility for HER happiness...and it has backfired on you.


2. I start trying to figure out what I did wrong and/or what is bothering W. By doing so, I start "trying" too hard. I become needy/clingy/etc.


so how is this belief system and the path it creates, wherein YOU are the "be all" of HER happiness/sadness pattern, and how YOU MAKE HER behave certain ways, working out for you?

Is it helping/working well? Is it even accurate? IS it possible you just need to own YOUR STUFF and not one bit of hers?

There's got to be a statute of limitations on how long she gets to blame you for, 1) like crap that happened long ago; and

2) or has stopped already or

3) that you were not truly responsible for anyhow...


This makes W feel even more like she has to act a certain way to keep me from getting upset, which in turn makes her more upset and makes her pull further away (i.e. walking around the house with the headphones, sitting out on the deck by herself, drinking, etc.).

so ALL of ^^^ this is still your fault? Wow, Navy I can't decide if it's self centeredness or a martyr complex but my friend, you have to get the blinders off...

3. Her behaviors make me even more upset, and on top of that, I still have no idea what I did that is causing her behavior. Eventually I get to the point where I "need" to talk to her about how she is treating me.

No you do not really "need" to talk to her. She knows she's mean to you!
She does not care to change...which means she's not going to be kind.

SO Just don't tolerate it anymore and get the heck out of Dodge. But dont' hold your breath about her "Waking up."

Even if she does get it, it may simply be too hard for her to look inward. She says she has been miserable for 6 years but hasn't done a thing to improve HER LIFE, let alone the marriage.

Do you have Asperger's? Are you a fool or unhygienic? What is it that is so odd and annoying about you? My GUESS is that it's not you and that you do a lot of false analysis based on your premise that HER behavior is caused by you.

And btw, even for a roomate, she's just a drag. She's rude. And for a woman who is technically your wife, she and you are setting a bad example for the kids. For the life of me, idk how it can be better to live the way SHE wants to and say that is best for the kids?


4. I initiate a talk with her. These talks used to have the overarching theme of "W, I don't understand why you are treating me like this and why you don't want to work on our M". Lately, they have had the theme of "W, I can't continue living this way. If you are so miserable that you feel you have to treat me the way you are and/or avoid me, then we need to start working on ending our M". To W, there is no difference between these themes. All she hears from me is "W, change your behavior to please me, or get out of the house".

So, words alone are not helping? So, what does that tell you? I get that she cannot hear what YOU say. So what are you going to DO about that?


5. Our talk ends up going nowhere, and we both get upset and defensive. She ends up pulling all the skeletons out of the closet, and I tell her that those things happened 5 years ago, I owned & apologized for them, fixed the things I was doing wrong, and don't understand why she can't accept what she has in front of her today. What she hears: "W, I have done all this work to fix our M, and you continue to do nothing except dwell on the past...I am right, you are wrong".


even though I agree with the CONTENT of that assessment, it's not helpful to have these discussions. Your words are not getting thru to her, period.

I felt the same way when my h was being kind of crazy selfish. My wonderful loving arguments, AND OR my brilliant insights and cogent articulate points, made no difference. The words did not matter. He could not "hear" me...

my actions were a lot more noticeable.

6. The talk/argument eventually ends, but I have just further reinforced the idea in W's head that she needs to act a certain way to keep me happy, and she resents that.

ever think she just wants a carte blanche on how she can treat you?

b/c no matter how you mask it all, or word it, in effect, that is what she wants...and no one thinks you are off track by expecting more. Needing and wanting more are normal reactions to a lousy situation. You've been at this a LONG time...
Both of us are stressed, all the time.


nightmare for all--kids included

7. ---
This has been happening to us over and over and over. I wanted to post this because I think it could help someone out there. This is "what not to do" - and if you take a hard look at the basic principles of DBing, they exist to stop this cycle. I bet a lot of people are doing this same thing - but it's so hard to see it happening when you're caught in the middle of it.

I don't blame W for this cycle, and I don't blame myself either. It's just been happening, and we're both caught in the middle of it.

You CAN change your life, Navy...you CAN change this situation. Don't keep giving her all your power and the power over the family...


Yes, I have made myself a better man, father, and husband. I am a good person that deserves to be loved and respected. But when this cycle is happening, none of that matters...[b]in fact, it probably worked against me, and caused the cycle to get worse.[/b]


WTH??? Stop that wacky thinking. You are NOT to blame for her actions. You can stop "needing to tell her" THE OBVIOUS=

Having endless talks about her being a witch to you, but you "expecting more" is not helping. You seem to think that you wanting a real marriage, or even friendly behavior, needs explaining. It doesn't.

The talks that suggest you need to get her to get that, are a bit odd and clearly counter productive. So snap out of it my friend.

STOP THE CYCLE
---------------------------------------------

After W and I had defined and agreed on the vicious cycle, we started to talk about what we could do to break it and make our living situation acceptable for both of us. Neither of us had an answer - so I asked her if she would be willing to go talk to someone with me to help figure it out. She said yes.

I have IC today - so I plan to go over this with her and see if she has a recommendation for someone that can help us.

I don't have any hope of saving our M at this point - this counseling will strictly be to see if we can come up with a plan that works for both of us. It may even cause us to realize that the "plan" is unfeasible and that we need to D. I told W that I can either get some names of counselors and she can call them and find whomever she's comfortable with, or I can set up the appt. She told me to set up the appt.


small example of you, again, taking on the job of getting HER a c appt. I mean, really? This is part of your cycle. You take on HER needs and never fill your own, which you resent, but deny.

And that denied need converts into overt neediness and clingling and she pulls farther away. BE a tad indifferent. Let her make her own dang appointment and if she does, good. If not, so what?

You go to yours...that's it. From there, see what develops but get out of this cycle.

While I think a good mc is usually a positive,

I do not expect a c to help this b/c you want a marriage but imo, your wife wants a roof over her head, a clean house with bills paid, and a babysitter...sorry

I said ok, and then went to bed. W came in a few minutes later and asked me if I was ok, then she said "sorry I've upset you". It was a real apology - unsolicited and without sarcasm. I told her that she didn't need to apologize...it's not her fault...it's nobody's fault.

let her apologize. It means she owns something. Don't deny her that bit of adulthood-the part where she starts to see her own issues and owns them.

Do not stunt or prevent her growth in the misguided belief that you are being forgiving. You can forgive her - but hold her accountable.


Then I said I was sorry for making her feel like she needed to act a certain way to make me happy, and I went to sleep.

hang in there...

Navy, there is PURE GOLD in 25's detailed post to you. I hope you'll print that out and read it often, and pray that you'll begin to take this stuff to heart and decide to being to slog your way out of this mess. YOU WILL BE OKAY, with or without your wife, Navy. As a wise poster around here used to say, "You can handle it."


Starsky

[StubbornDyke]

Navy, I'm reading along and cheering you on from the sidelines. My heart sinks every time I read that you decided you had to "talk to W about" something.

I see that you can't stand your discomfort and you attempt to alleviate it by talking things out with her. I think that does two things. One, it drives her further away. Two, it temporarily alleviates your discomfort so you avoid taking appropriate actions.

Others have noted that you're throwing WAYYYYYY too many words at her. What happens if you sit with your discomfort when you have the urge to have R talks?

Maybe it's time to invest in some duct tape. Remember, loose lips sink ships!

[Navyguy]

Can't sleep. Had a rough Sunday.

I had a soccer game in the morning. It was fun. We won 3-2 and I scored 2 goals. One was even called "messi-ish".

Shortly after I got home, the doorbell rings. It was our landlord coming by to pick something up and look at a few things. He had emailed me on Saturday to say he was going to try to come by on Sunday, but I forgot to let W know he was coming. An honest mistake.

After he left, W was obviously pissed that I hadn't told her. I apologized...she stayed mad and said nothing.

Then I took the kids swimming. W didn't go because she "needed a break".

I got home before W and fed the kids dinner. W got home around 7:00.

When she got home, I asked her if she wanted dinner. She said no, she already ate. I asked what she had, and she said chic fil a. Then, realizing it was Sunday, and that I had immediately caught onto her lie, she said something about no, it was macaroni grill.

Knowing she hates macaroni grill, I asked if she went there alone. She said did not. She met the guy from the FB saga there.

More to follow tomorrow. I need to try to get some sleep now.

[25yearsmlc]

to HER, perhaps

all the talks that "make her feel bad" (b/c you comment on her mistreatment of you) are such a drag....but you pay the bllls and help with the kids...


but FB listens and validates and blah blah blah (and has no idea of the baggage she carries, what a drag she is around you, or how rude she can be or how "overworked" she feels based on...whatever)

and THIS silly stupid "BOY", may be what finally tips you over. It's ironic but frankly, at this point,

if losing your "downer of a roommate" to OM is what it takes for you to see how far off track she is from becoming a wife to you in this decade, then so be it.

I'm truly sorry. I'm sure it'll hurt and your ego will take a wallop

EXCEPT

you already know what the lucky LBSers know, and or have done.

You know in your heart of hearts you have given your best. Never forget that.


You have to leave the results up to God and stop "trying too hard," and all the rest of the crazy stuff SHE causes.

i saw this prayer in a book by Marianne Williamson on "The Gift of Change".
I thought of you. I hope it'll guide you in this time of pain my friend.

"Dear God,

I lay this problem on your altar and ask that you shed light on this trouble.

Please interpret this situation for me.

Please guide me so I can see what I need to see.

Please strengthen me w/courage & faith, to do what I need to do.

Help me to forgive and raise me above my fears,

so I may move towards you and a happier more loving life."

Go be happy Navy, you deserve it. You may not believe that, deep down, but it really is true. I hope your IC helps you see that. And check into "Essential Experience" as a long weekend workshop. You may only need to take one day of leave. IT's Quite profound and not for couples, per se. Mostly it's individuals who go and it's life changing.

You'll feel better about yourself and act w/more clarity and intent than you ever have before. It's on the east coast and it's not cost prohibitive given what THIS life is costing you, it's drivable and housing is offered...(I've attended flying in from Alaska...h went, after he saw MY changes...) Just give it a shot. I want to shake the fog from your eyes and restore your heart and self esteem. Not sure an hour a week, even with a good t, will do that quickly enough.

I think you need it to clear your head and see this for what it is my friend.

Again, I'm so sorry.

[Starsky309]

When she got home, I asked her if she wanted dinner. She said no, she already ate. I asked what she had, and she said chic fil a. Then, realizing it was Sunday, and that I had immediately caught onto her lie, she said something about no, it was macaroni grill.

Knowing she hates macaroni grill, I asked if she went there alone. She said did not. She met the guy from the FB saga there.

Navy, what's the point of these accusations and confrontations? It's already a GIVEN that your wife lies to you, and is in contact with this guy. You know it; she knows it; she knows that YOU know it.

So what's the point, other than to get into cheeseless tunnels with her fogged-out self, and make yourself feel like KRAP in the process? What is your goal in these confrontations?


Starsky

[Navyguy]

Harrier, thanks for stopping by. You are right...I should have just said "thank you for saying that".

The cycle is killing me - it's just causing both of us so much pain. I know that I can stop it...I just don't know how.

The proposed counseling is going to be with a MC with both of us there. It's not IC for W.

W and I met at a party at a mutual friends' house. We were different because I hadn't ever hurt W and she didn't view me solely as a person that hurt her. Over time, that is how she has come to see me. I think I have become a better person than when we met...she only sees the person that hurt her for years. There's nothing I can do about that...I have spent the past 3 years trying to fix our M (and inherently, fix W). It is a losing battle and I need to come to grips with that.

[Navyguy]

This^^ implies that a 'friends only' r is okay with you, but that you want her to be a "nicer friend"....but I thought you wanted a marriage?

I do want a real marriage, more than anything. But, TBH, I have been bouncing back and forth with being ok with a "friends only" R and not being ok with it.

you mean where she's not rude or self absorbed and interacts like she's part of the family? THOSE expectations?

Yes, those are the expectations. I don't think they're ever going to go away - even if we just live as friends. If she can't handle them, this isn't going to work. Hopefully our upcoming MC provides some clarity on that for both of us.

THIS^^^ belief is a problem...b/c YOU are not the reason she acts this way.

Does it really happen w/a lot of others in your life? At work or church, are there a lot of folks who avoid you? Really?

Why must you assume you are the cause? You just aren't.

She's not active or happy elsewhere, is she? REALLY? And I don't mean after 2 bottles of wine...I mean genuinley content.

You assume you are the cause and I don't buy it. BUT I DO BUY That a root of your issues is you assuming far too much responsibility for HER happiness...and it has backfired on you.

No, it doesn't happen anywhere else in my life. W pretty much doesn't have a life outside of our home. She blames me for that. She is not content with any aspect of her life, and she has told me that. I have assumed a lot of that responsibility and I know I need to stop.

so how is this belief system and the path it creates, wherein YOU are the "be all" of HER happiness/sadness pattern, and how YOU MAKE HER behave certain ways, working out for you?

Horribly. Absolutely horribly. I have tried to lift W's pain off her shoulders through my actions, and it just doesn't work. Like you said, it just backfires on me.

Is it helping/working well? Is it even accurate? IS it possible you just need to own YOUR STUFF and not one bit of hers?

That is a tough one - in her eyes, everything falls into the "your stuff" category. Maybe I am being self-centered here, but anytime she's upset about anything, whether I caused it or not, she takes it out on me and nobody else.

so ALL of ^^^ this is still your fault? Wow, Navy I can't decide if it's self centeredness or a martyr complex but my friend, you have to get the blinders off...

I don't know. I guess I just need to end our conversations and walk away when she starts blaming me for her actions. I get it beat into my head that I did all these terrible things and then I start trying to explain myself. I have to stop that.

No you do not really "need" to talk to her. She knows she's mean to you!
She does not care to change...which means she's not going to be kind.

SO Just don't tolerate it anymore and get the heck out of Dodge. But dont' hold your breath about her "Waking up."

Even if she does get it, it may simply be too hard for her to look inward. She says she has been miserable for 6 years but hasn't done a thing to improve HER LIFE, let alone the marriage.

Do you have Asperger's? Are you a fool or unhygienic? What is it that is so odd and annoying about you? My GUESS is that it's not you and that you do a lot of false analysis based on your premise that HER behavior is caused by you.

And btw, even for a roomate, she's just a drag. She's rude. And for a woman who is technically your wife, she and you are setting a bad example for the kids. For the life of me, idk how it can be better to live the way SHE wants to and say that is best for the kids?

Yeah...talking has gotten me nowhere. If I'm unhappy with the situation, I need to change it. I know that. I'm still not sure what stops me from doing so.

Lol. No Asperger's or being unhygenic that I know of. One might be able to make an argument that I'm a fool though.

IDK how this sitch is better for anyone. Hopefully MC will clarify that for us.

The words did not matter. He could not "hear" me...

my actions were a lot more noticeable.

By actions...you mean when you filed for D?

WTH??? Stop that wacky thinking. You are NOT to blame for her actions. You can stop "needing to tell her" THE OBVIOUS=

Having endless talks about her being a witch to you, but you "expecting more" is not helping. You seem to think that you wanting a real marriage, or even friendly behavior, needs explaining. It doesn't.

I agree...and I guess my actions need to reflect that. I have to choose not to be treated like crap.

small example of you, again, taking on the job of getting HER a c appt. I mean, really? This is part of your cycle. You take on HER needs and never fill your own, which you resent, but deny.

And that denied need converts into overt neediness and clingling and she pulls farther away. BE a tad indifferent. Let her make her own dang appointment and if she does, good. If not, so what?

You go to yours...that's it. From there, see what develops but get out of this cycle.

While I think a good mc is usually a positive,

I do not expect a c to help this b/c you want a marriage but imo, your wife wants a roof over her head, a clean house with bills paid, and a babysitter...sorry

The C is for both of us, together. Since I am already working with an IC, I offered to ask for us to be referred to a MC. If W wants IC, she knows the phone # to call.

I also don't think that this MC will save our marriage. I told W that last night. We may find out that what she wants is impossible, but I'm willing to go see if we can find a way.