"you said there wasn't anything we couldnt fix. I agree. You said you wanted for your family to still be together, I agree with that too. What steps do you think we need to make that would allow that to happen?".
And then leave it at that and wait. Thoughts?
I think it's worth a shot.
Every sitch is of course, unique. While we can look at a sitch and based on general info, apply certain DB methods. Also, DB really is about doing what works, so a specific DB method can and should be modified to our specific sitch if it works.
And, when something that we are doing is not working, do something different.
I suspect that LRT is not the method for you right now and I do think that asking him to make a statement as to what he wants (which will likely be based on how he feels right now) is appropriate.
Let's see what's on his mind.
Then we can look at possible course of actions and DB methods to apply.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
So consider that I say I'm not sure I want to be M to my W.
That's how I feel... right now
And that is likely how my W feels... right now
That can change for us at any time and then change again. And we may not verbalize that to each other and / or the feelings are polar to how the other is feeling, at the time.
While my W has not yet said she'd like to try, she DID go to counselling with me about Nov of 2010. It lasted three sessions and I gave up, as I felt she really was on a path to use counselling to convince me that we were better apart. Who knows? Maybe if I would have stuck to it... again, that's the past and no point me dwelling on it.
The point is, as I mentioned in my previous post, there was a time when I DID want to be M to my W, regardless of any negatives that I knew about her. No doubt it was the same for her.
As they say... If I knew then, what I know now...
Things could be very different for us if we had applied DB to our sitch, 5 years ago...
Statistically, it appears very common that both spouses do regret a D at some point in time, after the fact. That they regret not trying harder to work things out. What is almost equally as common, is that it appears many people will never openly admit that.
I think what I'm really trying to get at is, "when" I finally have the thought that maybe I would like to be M to my W, and it does not mean to say that option would be available, well... I don't want any regrets...
She COULD change. The traits that I feel are negative might be rationalized as positive. Or those traits might disappear completely or "be fixed" by her. Just as could be, for me.
I certainly don't want to live out my life thinking that I made the biggest mistake in my life M my W. And I sure don't want to live the rest of my life rationalizing that I made the best choice to D her... "...and here's the reasons why..."
~~~~~~~~~
So, let's see what he has to say...
And from there we can look at what you might do. What GAL and 180s you might want to do. What things in yourself you can change...
That will make you a better person than you already are...
A person that only a fool would leave...
And maybe your H might end up being a man that only a fool would leave...
I had a suprising reaction! I was so turned off. I didn't say anything. My perception of him changed in that second. I saw him as a young boy who was unable to stand up for me or our family. No judgement, this is his life too. I'm just not interested in pursuing a R with someone like that. The person he has developed into is not the person I want to share my life with.
And here's the funny part! After having that "no hope" feeling, I would cry, pace, cry, beg to God...but none of that happened. Felt weird. I tried to cry, felt like I was supose to-but my mind nor my heart cared to go there anymore. I felt...fine, great and serene even.
I have a pic of us on my night stand, we are hugging each other. I use to look at it and would wish to feel his arms around me. This time when I saw it I had a different reaction. I looked at it and smiled. I recognized him as a man that I had great memories with and was once madly in love with. And then...I just put it away. No anger, sadness, remorse, anything! I appreciated that time in my life for what it was and then released it.
Guys I feel great! Did I just move on?
I know it is only a matter of time 'till those texts start again, and I know what my reaction will be. For the first time ever it will be "I am no longer interested in a relationship with you". I don't feel the slightest tinge of ANY negative emotion when I type or think that! I just feel...happy.
I have no desire to act in anger in any way. I don't have the desire to see or speak to him either. I'm just done, ready to move on.
This experience has allowed me to grow so much that his negative drama/situation is no longer attractive to me.
KD, I really have to thank you for the peace of mind that I have right now. You gave me the courage to ask that question, and his answer has freed me in so many ways. Thank you so much <3
Me-31 H-24 D3,D2 M 4 yrs WAW(me) 12/2011 role reversal 03/2012 (H)PA 3-6/2012 (H)D filed 6/2012 D deemed "inactive", closed 8/2012 I've moved on 9/2012
First, don't assume that you just drop the rope and you will be emotionally fine. It COULD be true, although it's certainly likely that those emotions will roll a few more times for you...
Second, I'm going to point at the following statement you posted:
Originally Posted By: jamiegarcia333
I have no desire to act in anger in any way. I don't have the desire to see or speak to him either. I'm just done, ready to move on.
The bold part...
Why not?
Because here's the thing...
If you don't "feel" anything... no animosity towards him...
Why would you not want to speak to him or see him?
Because truth be known... I've spent a LOT of time trying to convince myself that I didn't care... yet would not speak to my W... did not want to see her...
Because I was angry at her...
I've been working on being friends with my W, now...
Because I don't care...
I do know that my D9 cares... and she likes that we are being "friendly"... and I think my D14 does too, but she'd never admit it...
I know you don't have kids, so there's no motivation...
I have three very good female friends who I KNOW have my back... Yet, I had dated and been intimate with these woman back in my late teens / early twenties. And the break ups weren't necessary happy and mutual...
They liked me, I liked them... as people... as friends... and the Rs may have not worked, but ultimately, we still like each other... and can be friends... no problem seeing each other and talking to each other... do it often... like daily... bff's... without the benefits...
There are things about my W that drive me crazy... and I'm pleased as punch that I don't have to deal with them every day, now... I can imagine meeting her on the street and chatting... talking with her at parties... maybe even going for coffee... with her and her new H... or bf...
So I'm working on that... 'cause I really think that's OK... because at the end of the day... I ain't going home with her... and I'm not gonna M her...
Like you, though...
My W still has different plans...
She SAYS there's "no reason to be angry and bitter with each other"... says that she is "pleased that we can get along with each other for the sake of the kids" (emphasis mine, and I do so because it certainly DOES emphasise that's the only reason) and also stating some boundaries about HER friends and MY friends, as though never the two shall meet... or maybe more specifically, that her friends are off limit to me...
I'm doing a bit of speculation and mind reading, of course... or even elaborating a bit...
What I'm saying there is... it is very clear, she wants nothing to do with me...
And I'm guessing... that's anger speaking...
If we don't want to see someone or speak with them... that means there's probably something there...
I am slowly socking the money away that I need to file D.
But... like these ex-GFs that I am really good friends with... I say... why not...?
I'd urge you to learn to embrace some ambiguity. You've changed your mind and heart several times in a short span.
both of you have and even though your last post sounded at peace, so did the one with the opposite message before.
Just take some breaths. You do NOT need to decide anything so fast OR with such finality,
If you still see him as a "boy" you don't want to be married to, in a week, and in a month and in 6 months, THEN you can decide to decide.
No need to know for certainty this second. That "certainty" is an illusion when you force it anyhow. You're so determined to know one way or the other
that you are pushing and pulling.
No wonder he is afraid. The anger you feel is just under the surface and I think he senses it a lot. I don't know how he mistreated you but both of you seem to be escalating things when anger flares, which is often.
Have you considered going to Retrovaille? Look into it. It's a very healthy thing for marriages in trouble.
even if you do end up divorced, you're likely to get along a lot better and to see things his way more. OR at least not interpret his actions so negatively.
For instance, I thought his interest in meeting the daycare providers was totally reasonable. I'd have been concerned and hurt if my h showed no interest in that decision.
Just another point of view.
Do look into Retrovaille though.
It has worked miracles, and I know we got a lot out of it in just one weekend (but do the follow up program too).
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
I appreciate the both of you walking with me through this. Such patience you have!
KD I did give myself time to think about what you said. Oh, and we have two daughters, ages 2 AND 3. Yes, you were right, that bold part had anger running through it, which is a stronger version of pain. My innability to let that go will only hurt the situation for everyone involved, esp our daughters. So yes, I do need to gut check my pride at the curb and work on being friends for our daughters. I did a great job of that today (more on that in a min)
25 I totaly get what you are saying. What I really really needed to do was let go, my every thought was wrapes around the sitch. I think that's where my inner peace has come from, knowing that I can be happy in this moment regardless of what is going on. Have I totaly hung up the M? Hmm, I love the man, but it is in God's hands. No I'm not pushing for divorce or begging to reconcile. I'm actualy proud of my ability to maintain an inner calm despite the world around me. Been pretty darn good about staying centered lately.
With that being said, I have some interesting updates. Just a quick glimpse of the past real quick...
June 1st-H opens up about wanting family back together June 2nd-H does 180 June 17-H openly loving/flirtatious, says ILU June 25-discover he and OW are over July 2-initial status confrence at court July 3-H opens up about wanting family back together July 5-H does 180
Talk about a lot of flip flopping. During this time I had maintained the status of being there, waiting. I really felt taken for granted. His last 180 a few days ago contradicted everything he had said 2 days prior. I really had enough of his emotonial rollar coaster. Our last convo did end on a positive note. Although I felt detached I kept those feelinge sto myself and maintained a neutral position.
Today it started up again. He sent me a text asking what I would do differently if we were to try it again. We have had this talk a million times, he knows that answer. The following is our conversation:
H-hey if we decided to do this again what would change?
Me-Are you asking me to convince you to be with me? Me-Cello I'm not about to commit myself to someone that does not love me and is not willing to put me first
H-No I'm not I'm just asking bc I wouldnt want you talking to anyone
Me-I'm not in a R with anyone. I would rather be single for the right reasons than in a R for the wrong. I'm single bc I dont want to be in a R right now.
H-So that means you wouldnt want me either?
Me-Why would I want to be with someone that only wants to string me along? Besides, in a few days you'll be saying things like "idk"
H-sorry I bothered you
Me-At one point in my life I was madly in love with you, but that chapter in my life is over now. I have no desire to be in a relationship with you. The girls have parents that love them and thats all that matters now.
H-ok
Now, don't go throwing stones at me. I am proud of standing up for myself. 25 I feel like you are going to ask me if I was trying to punish him . Honestly, no. I deserve someone that will commit to me and I feel good for standing up for myself. It wasn't said to get him back, make him suffer or anything like that. I really meant it.
Two hours pass... H starts sending me pics and videos of us and our daughter's milestones (1st steps, 1st bdays...)I thanked him for the pics.
And then he starts to open up, but in a different way. He begins by talking about how happy we were, where did that go, he wishes he tried harder. I place myself in the friend position, as if I were an old friend he were opening up to. I'm proud at my ability to be friendly, supportive and not affected by the conversation.
He then talks about how he thought he was happy but that he isn't. He thinks he knows what he has to do to be happy but doesnt know if it's too late. Do I assume he is talking about us and manipulate the conversation? No. For all I know it could be a number of things. But I did tell him this:
If I could give you any advice, it would be this: On your death bed, what would be your biggest regret? And then live your life so that you wouldn't have that regret.
Again, am I assuming he is refering to me? Nope. I would tell any friend that. Yes KD, I said friend. I did a good job of being his friend tonight. What if his regret is leting OW get away? I would treat it as if his regret was not owning a snake, or going sky diving.
He did end the conversation in a unique way. He said goodnight Mrs. Garcia, sweet dreams. (our last name is Garcia) Interesting....
But still remaining peaceful, focusing on being his friend and not basing my emotions on his life decisions.
Two hours passed
Me-31 H-24 D3,D2 M 4 yrs WAW(me) 12/2011 role reversal 03/2012 (H)PA 3-6/2012 (H)D filed 6/2012 D deemed "inactive", closed 8/2012 I've moved on 9/2012
My highlighter isn't working so I can't point out the way I see you go off track at times.
Over all you know your anger is a huge issue for you, even when you don't see it as anger. Even when you rationalize it or mask it'
but I know that intellectually, (although maybe not emotionally yet)
you get how bad the anger is for YOU and your d's, not to mention what it does to your marriage.
When your h asked you what would be different if you were to reconcile
I thought he asked the most reasonable & mature question ANYONE could ask,
It means HOW WOULD THE MARRIAGE BE BETTER/DIFFERENT THAN BEFORE?
and you instead took it as a challenge. Why not tell him how YOU would have changed? What your work is on you...how YOU feel you have grown and how you would approach things or problem solve differentlyl...b/c if you cannot think of one change YOU have made or would make
then what is the point of his efforts?
There is some sort of competititve thing going on I can't wrap my brain around.
Like each of you wants the other one to "Change first" which I see often enough. It's is partly ego, partly youth (sorry, you both seem to do the yo yo thing a lot, for a couple with two kids)
and partly b/c you BOTH FEAR BEING HURT AGAIN...
Do you feel as if you are the only one of you two, "entitled" to fear rejection?
Don't just blurt out "of course not!" --really think about it and see if you don't harbor a double standard deep down. OR a few...
Look, I think you are making headway internally, but it's NOT manifesting outwardly in your interactions with him....and isn't that important?
Also note how much of your last post concerned HIS words and HIS behavior.
Honey, you gotta take the focus off of him and your "score keeping" and measuring what YOU think of HIS PERSONAL INNER WORK,
and keep the mirror up on yourself to make the changes YOU can make b/c
again,
you are the only person you control.
And please slow your clock down. You look for changes and patterns in hours and days, and that's not how it works.
Also the progress and growth we hope you both will experience,
is Not linear. Okay?
2 steps forward, one or 4 back, and then 6 steps forward, etc
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
I appreciate that stern talking to. Felt like I needed to be shaken/waken up.
I want to report on a few interactions, but first some changes I have become aware of.
In the past I was a little flashy with my body. Not embarrassing or inappropriate, but I would choose tops that were possibly a tad bit too tight or low cut. I am proud of my body, but in honesty I was using it to attract attention. In my M I felt empty, and so unconsciously I sought attention from males to fill me up, give me a sense of worth. I was the mom at the kiddie pool in the string bikini, if you feel me.
Even worse, my affair. I was unhappy, and instead of looking inward I turned to another man's arms. Of course someone else can't fill you up with love, esp in an A type situation.
It was never a conscious decision, but at some point something changed inside of me. In thinking of what I want in a M, I realized it was a soulful connection, not one based off sexual chemistry. I saw the signal that my behavior was putting out, and did not want to continue attracting the same reactions. I don't want to be wanted for my body or appearances, I want to be loved for me, Jamie. I want to be in a relationship who values waiting to be intimate, and takes the time to foster a R with me first. My R desires have matured from fake instant gratification to appreciating real love. I respect the "true love" concept so much that I don't mind this limbo sitch.
My clothing and mannerisms have changed so much. I'm actually modest now, wanting my body to be private. I want people to see ME, not below the neck. I focus on making heartfelt interactions with everyone that I come into contact with. I even have a new tan line from wearing shorts and tank tops at the kiddie pool . There are many opportunities for me to have a man at my home, but I'm incapable of feeling good about any aspect of a sitch like that. Life even gave me the opportunity to express my beliefs with 2 males that tried to "go there". I was polite, but stated how I really felt about it. And these 2 males have even more respect for me. I've learned how respecting yourself is the best example for you expect others to treat you. I'm feeling really good these days _________________________________________________________________
Ok, so here are my updates...
25, I opened the door for intimacy with H, and this Monday it happened. H was at my home waiting for me when I came home from my night shift. It was an amazing powerful connection. Like this sitch didn't even exist. Afterwards we fell asleep in each other's arms for an hour. I stayed in bed while he got ready for work. He woke me up to tell me goodbye and kissed me twice. No real interaction since, but I know that is expected. I'm not affected by his distance, didn't knock me off my PMA platform. Again, I'm feeling pretty darn good.
This is where things get a little iffy-remember how I said I wanted to be in a committed R before being intimate? Um it applies here too. It was a great moment, and nice to see that we still have that connection. BUT, I don't really feel lined up with the thought of doing it again. Yes, we are M, but the reality is he really isn't any different from any other guy right now. I really really need to be in a committed R before being intimate again-including H.
I have also set some boundaries. This has less to do with the sitch and more to do with me making decisions that would need to be implemented after the D. For example...
H sent me some sexual pics today. I let him know that I valued our friendship and wanted to keep our relationship at that level. Told him I felt it was innapropiate to continue to act in a sexual way with someone that I am not in a relationship with.
H showed up out of no where today grabbing himself (before the pics). I let him know that it is innapropiate for him to show up unnanounced at my home, and there wasnt really a reason for his visits. Hinted at the future and that one day someone else will be in life, and pointed out how innapropiate this would be.
I use to give H a check for my half of the debt. This was mainly to see him/make my responsibility visible. I have contacted the creditors and am paying them directly for my share of our debt. I'm am doing this bc I like being responsible, not for any other reason.
Turned down his offer to watch the girls on his week. He wants this life, he gets to live this life. If my girls really needed me I would be there in a heartbeat. But I'm not helping him make his new lifestyle easier for him to live.
I would list more but we don't have much interaction. I only reply to his texts, I don't initiate them. I treat my responses as if he were a friend. I don't get mad if I don't hear from a friend for a week, and I don't do it with him either. I don't keep score cards or act in a manipulative way, so I have stopped doing that with him too. I appreciate my friends for their positive traits and do not harp on the negative ones, and I made the choice to treat him the same.
I feel amazing, I feel strong, I feel happy. I'm proud of myself and the amazing woman that I am. I know I'm not done growing (are we ever?) but I AM done shrinking away. For the past few weeks I have had no desire to work on the M or even think about being in a R with H. And that's ok. That's how I feel right now, and I know things can change in the future. But what feels amazing RIGHT NOW is getting out of his way, living my life and appreciating all of the amazing things in it.
sry this was so long!
Me-31 H-24 D3,D2 M 4 yrs WAW(me) 12/2011 role reversal 03/2012 (H)PA 3-6/2012 (H)D filed 6/2012 D deemed "inactive", closed 8/2012 I've moved on 9/2012
Me-31 H-24 D3,D2 M 4 yrs WAW(me) 12/2011 role reversal 03/2012 (H)PA 3-6/2012 (H)D filed 6/2012 D deemed "inactive", closed 8/2012 I've moved on 9/2012
1. You are the prize 2. You are a good woman that any good man would want 3. You can't change the past 4. If your H is unhappy that is his problem to deal with 5. If you have issues, fix them but not for him 6. There is always someone else who will apprcieate you 7. There is always someone else in worse shape than you 8. If you want to be happy fix YOU first. You can't fix him. 9. Decide if you want to be married to the alien that has become your husband..If so, why in the world would you want that??? 10. The sooner you get your head on straight and realize you can handle life without your current husband. The sooner you will get the husband you want and deserve. That may or may not be your current husband. 11. The pain will not go away or lessen until you face these things and take action. 12. It is all up to you. You decide how long you suffer. This is not negotiable.
Me-31 H-24 D3,D2 M 4 yrs WAW(me) 12/2011 role reversal 03/2012 (H)PA 3-6/2012 (H)D filed 6/2012 D deemed "inactive", closed 8/2012 I've moved on 9/2012
Obviously the hospital has been slow tonight. Just wanted to post some of my thoughts on my sitch, 7 months in...
Now I understand why the detaching is so important. Detaching can take a loooong time. It seems to me that the longer that time period, the longer it takes for the WAS to really start their journey. For me, it means giving myself the space to mourn the loss of the M, of that special relationship that you cherished. That's why everyone says the old M is dead. I thought everyone was being mean, but now I get it. It has to be dead to you. You cannot have any hope that anything you do will bring about a change. It's hard to come to grips with that. It almost felt like an identity crisis-waking up to a life that you don't understand.
It doesn’t mean hating your S either or acting in ways that would cause them to justify why life is so much better without you. You really have to let them take that road, and you have to love them enough to get out of their way. There is also a great amount of respect for someone that is able to do this while respecting themselves and acting with dignity.
I can also see the beauty in this gift of time, as they say. No one is perfect, and we have all adapted certain habits that we would rather not have. This time is a precious gift-the time to reflect on ourselves and make any adaptations. There aren’t any excuses anymore, no one holding us back. It's time to get back in touch with US, fall in love with ourselves again. I'm pretty sure that just like me everyone else has put the family first. Nothing wrong with that, but now is that precious time to dust ourselves off and get some much needed me time. And when everything falls back together (it will for everyone, even if the picture is different than before), we will all be so much wiser, ready and complete.
ps I think everyone here is so amazing, you have been so inspiratonial. I hope our S realize how beautiful everyone here really is.
Me-31 H-24 D3,D2 M 4 yrs WAW(me) 12/2011 role reversal 03/2012 (H)PA 3-6/2012 (H)D filed 6/2012 D deemed "inactive", closed 8/2012 I've moved on 9/2012
. Honestly, no. I deserve someone that will commit to me and I feel good for standing up for myself. It wasn't said to get him back, make him suffer or anything like that. I really meant it.