I don't think walking away was enforcing your boundary because you didn't make it clear to H why you were walking away.
He knew why I was walking away. I didn't say he was an idiot.
Originally Posted By: Adinva
He sounds like a big goofball. He snores and eats everything in sight, can't do fix-it projects but tries anyway, attends counseling and really wants to get better and just can't get it right. Even though we only hear your side of things, CV, the sense I get is that more of the people who read you sympathize with him. Why is that?
I don't know, perhaps you could tell me? But it reminds me of "Everybody Loves Raymond." Just not as funny.
Originally Posted By: Adinva
I have noticed you're extremely smart. You back up your opinions with examples, and you really seem to have given this a lot of thought and effort. Yet you come across as unpleasable, inflexible, and a bit mean. Why is that?
Because I'm the WAS. I might just be all those things. I think maybe I've just been trying for too long. Like I said, we've done counseling the better part of our M, with several good counselors. We've done books, seminars, weekends away. We've discussed things between the two of us for countless hours. I really feel like I've done it all. I am every one of your WAS's that just decided they couldn't deal anymore. I suspect a lot of what I'm saying is things other people have had said to them by their WAS.
I get that I'm in the wrong forum, but I knew I wasn't looking for people to back me up and tell me to D him. I can already get that from my BFF/mutual friend that knows both of us intimately (er, in a healthy way.) She tells me she doesn't know how I do it, says she would have killed him long ago, calls me about stuff that he does to her. But I wanted to be among people that wanted to save their M's, people with ideas of what would work.
I tried. I'm happy with that. I wasn't expecting a miracle.
Originally Posted By: Adinva
You and H have a fundamental disagreement. He thinks he is fine and you think he is unacceptable.
I agree. But I would add that I'm also tired. I could do what you suggested with the fan. I HAVE done that. But I would have to be willing to commit to doing it every single time we had a discussion, and I just don't have it in me. M shouldn't be THIS hard. It's easier to let him be as he is and me just walk away.
I heard a saying once that said, "It's easier to drag a person downhill than it is to drag a person uphill." I'm too tired to carry the R. I'm not sure I really even have the desire anymore.
Quote:
What makes your side so unsympathetic, to me, is that you rigidly stand by your opinion as though it is fact, even when your H doesn't agree. The fan is an example. It's going to flatout ruin your idea of the deck because you're so set on some other kind of fan. You don't want to shop because the deck's no good for three months but H is trying to implement something to make it usable now. You just seem unwilling to look at him as anything but completely, obviously, totally wrong. At least in the examples you gave.
You can see it that way if you'd like. It isn't that way, but I'm not sure it's worth explaining. Does it matter that the deck will be done in about 2 weeks, but the fan can't legally be installed for 3 months because of building permits? Does it matter that he has completely bailed on the expense of the deck because he can't afford it, but then wants to purchase a fan 3 times the amount of money I budgeted? Does it make any difference that when we were picking the ceiling boards, that all he had to say was he didn't like it and I would move on to the next option? Does it matter that he was completely fine with the discussion about the fan because I did it in a pleasant, friendly, joking manner? It's the reason I don't like to give specific examples, because you can't possibly know all the intricate details. The fact that you're inserting the details that you are says more about your perspective than mine.
H knows where I stand. He knows my plan. If nothing is done in the next 6 years, we share the burden equally. I'm no worse because I choose to do nothing just like him.
I'm feeling like my time here has run its course. Most everyone has been absolutely wonderful and I can't express how much I appreciate the time and effort spent on my threads. I'll take away a few words of wisdom and apply as I have the energy. And I'll still check on a few posters that I feel I've come to know. But when this thread locks, I think that will be it for me. I've consumed far too much time on this board with my sitch and need to wrap it up.
I wish all of you the best in your own sitch's and thanks again for stopping in.
CV, I wish you the best and I do hope you stick around one way or another.
While many appreciate insight into "the other side", I have an analogous situation with a housemate. He's a kind hearted guy with some ADD and a touch of Aspergers. I've decided that getting beyond wanting to kill him or kick him out is a personal growth issue for me. Or maybe just getting to the point of not feeling bad about kicking him out...
I thoroughly identify with your frustrations and I've found the discussion on your thread helpful.
Thanks, SD. If you ever "grow" beyond wanting to kill him or kick him out, to the point of actually enjoying him and wanting him to stay, I would really love to know how you achieved it. THAT would be the book I would want to read. Also, I'd love to hear anything that you pulled from my thread to help you with your roommate sitch and how it applies to you.
Me too, hate to see you go -- I do like trying to help although admittedly I don't think my feedback has been that useful to you. I have a feeling that if I moved in for a few weeks I may offer very different commentary and side with your BFF!
That said, I think everyone here wants the best for you. We are as a group not inclined to tell you it's ok to be angry and leave because most of us have been a victim of that.
No one knows your sitch better than you. If you want to come on my thread and vent now and again you are welcome to it.
Accuray
Married 18, Together 20, Now Divorced M: 48, W: 50, D: 18, S: 16, D: 12 Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 7/13/11 Start Reconcile: 8/15/11 Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 5/1/2014 (Divorced) In a New Relationship: 3/2015
Thanks, Accuray. I've always appreciated your insight! Plus, you have a very concise way of putting things. I'm sure I'll be around occasionally. A lot of people's sitch's have touched me and I'd like to keep up with them, yours being one of them. Plus, I think I've been able to throw in a valuable nugget occasionally, once in a while anyway. I'll probably keep my venting to my BFF, though. Who knows...
I get that no one would be inclined to tell me it's ok to leave. I wasn't looking for that anyway. It is somewhat comforting to know that I have tried most everything suggested, multiple times, the most significant being letting H know how I feel before just dropping a bomb and running. I'm still left with the fact that he is a grown man, he can make his own informed decision, and that I don't have a right or obligation to demand something different, including regarding how he treats me. I accept that. Likewise, he needs to accept that I'm a grown woman, I can make my own informed decision, and that he doesn't have a right or obligation to demand something different, including my staying M'd to him.
My H and I going our separate ways doesn't have to be painful or bitter or angry. It's the choice we're making, and a choice we've been making for many years already. We didn't get here overnight. But no one gets to choose to have their cake and eat it, too.
Thanks, SD. If you ever "grow" beyond wanting to kill him or kick him out, to the point of actually enjoying him and wanting him to stay, I would really love to know how you achieved it. THAT would be the book I would want to read. Also, I'd love to hear anything that you pulled from my thread to help you with your roommate sitch and how it applies to you.
Just hearing all the different perspectives gets me thinking. Lots of people have lots of ideas of things to try (offline, too). In my sitch, since it's a housemate, it's not too long before I hit the line where I don't want to have to work THAT hard on it. I'm not his mom. I'm not his GF. I'm not willing to go very far down the road of leading him by the nose and training him.
At this point, the value to me in this irritation is that it gives me needed practice in identifying my limits and clearly and kindly conveying them. I also get practice in setting reasonable limits. Even though I'm irritated and every thing he does bothers me, it's not reasonable to complain about everything. So, I get to practice choosing my battles and letting go of the rest.
There's the prevalent idea that there's some as yet undiscovered effective method of getting the other person to hear and understand. I see the value of making the effort to find that. Some posters claim that only the blunt threat of leaving (or in this case having to leave) will wake the other person up. I tend to think the latter is true in many cases. My recent example is that a mutual friend just told me that Housemate completely overlooked the content of a couple of my carefully worded email requests and interpreted them as me being grumpy because P is gone. So, he's trying to be understanding and extra nice to me (he told her), but he's basically ignoring my specific requests. He can't imagine that it might actually be about him.
In some of the tapes I've been listening to, Pia Mellody talks about getting beyond some of the long term aggravations she had with her H (and I can identify with her examples). She claims that it was the hard work of healing from codependence that made the difference. Specifically, that's about building self esteem, setting boundaries, accepting reality, and taking care of oneself. She particularly emphasizes that taking care of oneself makes the biggest difference. So, I'm trying that.
I have noticed that when I'm focusing on GAL and taking my bike rides then I'm actually able to have some moments of enjoying my housemate. That has nothing to do with what he is or isn't doing. It also helps if he's doing something useful and productive and hasn't broken or killed anything in the process. But that's a much riskier proposition.
You have your S who factors into your equation. I merely have rent, cat-sitting, guilt, and last but not least - P thinking I'm a mean person (because she never minded picking up after Housemate or any of the other things that I mind). Hence the motivation for this attempt at personal growth.
There's the prevalent idea that there's some as yet undiscovered effective method of getting the other person to hear and understand. I see the value of making the effort to find that. Some posters claim that only the blunt threat of leaving (or in this case having to leave) will wake the other person up. I tend to think the latter is true in many cases.
We say on this board, "actions, not words".
Which in many ways, IMHO, is the same as DB saying to change ourselves to change the sitch. We don't use words to change ourselves... even though we may use words (self talk) to convince ourselves to change... rather... we DO to change ourselves...
And with DOING, it is consistency over time. We don't DO once (or twice, or ten times) and expect results, or results that will last. What we DO must become a habit, so we are no longer counting how many times we've done something... rather, we focus on the actual, long term results of that change...
And we need to accept that no matter what we do... the other person may or may not... "wake up"... and that is OK. Because we do... we practice... we become better than we already are...
For us... regardless of any other external outcomes... what ever they may or may not be...
I am definitely pulling away from this some things I can work on for me. I will say they're not quite the same as yours, SD, but I suppose most people don't need to work on the same things.
Accuray posted something on your thread way back about the Darma Triangle. I had read on it before but just refreshed myself with some articles. I believe I have a tendency between rescuer and victim, H has a tendency to be the persecutor. So I don't think my need is to learn how to accept and tolerate the actions of the persecutor, but rather to remove my self from the role of victim/rescuer. In the past, I believe I would peak at the victim role then switch places with him, which is apparently part of the dynamic. I can see that as the persecutor, I would take out my frustrations and pummel him with my need for his changes and punish him for his behavior, putting him in the victim role. After I cooled down, I would feel bad and skip into rescuer role, try to "help" him, he would resume the role of persecutor and I would shift back into victim, and nothing would change.
I believe I need to remove myself from that cycle and step out of both the victim and the rescuer mentality. I believe one necessary step to accomplishing that is to stop exposing myself to known dangers. (aka enforcing boundaries.) I've already done that in some areas and it's very freeing. It's very good for me, though not necessarily good for the M, because H is still operating fully from the triangle, shifting back and forth between victim and persecutor because I'm not filling the opposing role. If he never steps off the triangle, I doubt we have any chance. But that simply isn't my focus since I presume we're finished anyway.
I need to stop focusing on the M. I focus on it frantically, reading books, seeking counsel, looking for solutions, while H is seemingly unbothered. He certainly puts no effort into addressing issues. Whenever I approach him with an issue, he's put out by the conversation. 2x4 received! It's not my job to rescue this M. And to make it worse, I assume the victim role whenever my obsessive efforts don't pay off.
So I'm done with that, though I think it will take a little time to perfect it. Recognizing it is the first step. It helps that I'm completely exhausted, plus feeling like I've neglected myself/my needs too long. I actually need to see a doctor next week because the stress I put myself under is making me feel unwell.
I think all of that subconscious realization culminated at the same time as my desire to end this thread. Or perhaps it caused my desire to end it, I don't know. I hope I didn't offend anyone with my frustration with that. I'm still of that mindset though, need to GAL and stop focusing on the M. I think I'll schedule some personal counseling, having nothing to do with my M, but just to help me find me again.
Thanks again to everyone. There's probably a few "I told you so's" due, but I never said I was quick. Better late than never.
