Continual Struggle

[Breakdown]

Journaling...

Pretty good week so far, though I could sense some irritation creeping up as we talked last night. Wed I usually play golf with friends, but due to the heat, I decided not to. Instead, I went to a late lunch (sushi!) with my brother. W called and asked if I was at happy hour, saying she'd stop by if I was. I said no, but could make it happen. She said she still had to work, so no rush. So instead of rushing home, I went to my B's and watched a movie. I kick myself because I always make myself available to her...this was a little better than normal so I'll give myself kudos for the baby step.

Last night we went to happy hour for an hour or so and it turns out she was irritated about me taking 3-4 hours to get home Wed. I don't think this is really negative, because I rarely leave the house (pretty sure I'm taken for granted for this), and I was available via phone. She explained she had maybe 1 hr of work left, and fully thought we'd be hanging out and I explained my side and we both left it at that.

The stuff I don't like is that even when we're out trying to enjoy each other, she'll look at someone and say "is that the kind of girl you'll be with if you leave me?" I don't like how the idea of us not being together has creeped into everyday conversation and seems ok. It's the last thing I want. I really think she's insecure with the idea that I'll be with someone, and that seems weird to me since she's the one that keeps saying she's leaving.

When we had our conversation about separation last weekend, she had said she had a huge fear that I was going to be very vindictive and try to make her miserable. I said that if she chose to separate, I would spend all my time trying to make me happy, trying to be a better me....hurting her feelings, or being mean to her would be the last thing on my mind. That too seemed to upset her.

Baby step on her side....I had a stressful time with the kids yesterday and she told me this morning, she would take care of dropping them off and picking them up so I could have a free morning. Very cool! I made a point to text her (I was sleepy when she left) that she looked great in the dress she wore. She did, and I thought it, but actually telling her is a 180 I've been working on this year....and recently I figured out that this is her love language, so I am working a bit harder at voicing these things.

Anyway, we agreed to try to do our dialogue hw today and we have retrovaille tomorrow, and then family vacation with her side of the family next week.

[Breakdown]

Journaling....

W text that she be home around 6 last night, but didn't get home til nearly 9. Didn't pick up my calls, and didn't text or anything. I went ahead and did dinner for the kids and her, had a few beers and watched a movie.

When she did get home, she apologized and said her phone died. We're getting ready to go on vacation for a few days and she's trying to close a couple of deals before we go. Honestly, I was fine that she worked late, but it does grate on me that somehow it always involves beer and for some reason, she can't borrow anyone's phone to let me know what's up. Yep, I've still got trust issues, but I am trying to have faith and not worry so much about it. I can't control her.

I will say, the fact that she took ownership of it, and apologized was a baby step. Most days she'd just stroll in and act like it was fine. She was even a little frisky, though I didn't respond.

Oh, this week's retrovaille post session was just ok. It didn't affect me nearly as much as the last one. Next time it's about forgiveness and trust, which I think is huge for both of us, but we have a conflict so will have to do that one over in October. I guess on the bright side, W has agreed not to leave until we finish the program, so I've extended it a few months

[labug]

Hi Breakdown, I don't think I've ever posted to you before but wanted to share something with you. I was reading your Boot Camp thread because I try to read everything Mach writes and came across your mention of sarcasm. I, too cultivated sarcasm, and did a pretty good job or it. People thought I was funny, I got attention and validation. Then I was taught by a wise man in Al Anon what sarcasm really was-malice and anger.

I was definitely taken aback by that realization and have been working on correcting that character flaw. It still occurs but not nearly so frequently.

I too am a judgmental, controlling fixer with a touch of passive-aggressive. But recovering.

[scaredsilly]

^^^bug is right about sarcasm. it hurts.

[Breakdown]

Thanks folks.

I posted an update in my bootcamp thread....took a turn for the worse. We're on to filing and figuring out living arrangements.

I think the only thing I've really asked for in the last year is a decent level of respect when it comes to parenting....let me know when you'll be home so I can plan on dinner, or getting kids to activities or whatever. She continues to ignore my calls (I really don't bother her until after 5-6pm, and then I'd kinda like to know), comes home hours late, and clearly been drinking most of those times. On one hand, I know I'm not giving her complete freedom, but on the other, I simply refuse to be continually walked on while she figures it out. We do have 5 kids and they do have to be taken care of. I'm not asking for a magic bullet, just co-parent with me. This has been going on off and on for the last year or so and I've tried to be patient, but this just seems to be her deal....happened again Monday and S12 missed his swim meet due to it. Last night she said she had dinner, but when I got home at 7pm, she wasn't home and kids hadn't eaten. I didn't say anything about it, but it's just the same behavior over and over.

[cat04]

Breakdown,

I have been reading along in your bootcamp thread. I wanted to chime in but didn’t want to do it there so I am dragging some stuff here, to your other thread.

I see one of your W’s major complaints was that you were controlling (join the club).

Something that happens when we hear that, is that we begin to look at every action as either controlling or not.

While that is good in some respects, there is the other side, and we begin to not set or enforce our own personal boundaries in order to not be seen as controlling.

The problem that this presents is that we can begin to view ourselves as doormats. It can erode our self-esteem further.

I see you doing that and I see your frustration with knowing what to do or not to do growing.

You guys did RV, which is wonderful when two people actually want to work on the relationship, but I don’t know that it works if you both aren’t committed to it, and it doesn’t seem to me that your W is committed to it at all. (Just say so if I’m wrong).

Right now, I see you doing everything you can to please your W, and nothing for yourself and unfortunately, that isn’t going to change her mind.

I pulled these from your bootcamp thread.

The availability thing is something I've struggled with…

The problem I have run into on GALing is that it becomes 20 questions with her, and complaining. For example, if I do something for me, she goes on and on about where were you, who were you with, are you looking for someone, etc. I struggle to create mystery when she's like this. And should I be busy 2 of 3 times, I can see her complaining "you never make time for me." I'm not sure where that goes from there.

Are the things you are doing things that you want to do? Things that make you happy?

If you are spending all of your free time away from home, I could see her complaint as valid. If it’s one evening a week, and you spend the other six with her, then I see no reason why you should stop what you are doing.

Something my BF does, as he truly understands that I need quality time with him, is to recognize when we have been busy, when we have let life get in the way, and he makes a point of telling me, “we have shows that we watch tonight and tomorrow, but on Friday, we shouldn’t watch anything. Let’s just do something together.”

Initially, I kind of let her do her own thing with minimal complaints but after a while, I really started saying "this isn't working for me."

This would have been a boundary if you had had a concrete idea of what you needed to change and let the option of changing be her decision.

Of course, that would have meant that you would have had to live with the consequences of whether she changed her behavior or not.

We have to be prepared when we set boundaries to have things not be necessarily what we would like them to be, and still enforce that boundary.

You weren’t prepared, it went the other way (see below), and you waffled on your boundary.

At that point, I started pushing for some change. I justified it by saying I wasn't asking for much, and it was a level respect I would ask for even in divorce. From one point of view, I still think that is accurate. But, the problem has been that she sees this as controlling, and I can now see that control is her #1 issue. So for probably 6 months now, she sees me trying to control her. When we talk about R, I think when we talk about her issues, I try to help her fix them...again, she sees "my way" or control.

.

How did that make you feel?

She had never admitted to having an emotional affair with the guy...I'm not even sure she'd agree with me on what an emotional affair was (unless I started having one, and then maybe we'd come to some agreement).

She probably isn’t going to admit to it, however, it appears to be one based on how you described it. Or it simply could be a good friendship that you feel is destructive to your R.

Regardless of whether she admits it or not, it bothers you and affects how you relate to her.

I’m going to ask some hard and personal questions and you may or may not choose to answer them here, that is up to you, but I hope you answer them for yourself.

Another woman has called your W a whore based on her R with this woman’s H. Do you feel that way?

Because if you do, it permeates into your interactions with your W.

How will you handle it if you reconcile and your W continues the R with this man?

What are your W’s LL?

What do you want your M to look like in the future in comparison to what it looked like in the past?

What are your LL?

Do you want to keep having a R with someone who is having an R with someone else?

I am not trying to convince you to act one way or another. However, I have been around here long enough to see when someone is struggling with something because they are afraid of changing the status quo but aren’t happy with themselves because of that. It is why most of us struggle in these situations.

Right now, you guys could go on like this indefinitely. Her doing her thing, you being there when she wants you there and being miserable when she doesn’t want you there.

Yes you have issues that you are struggling with and patterns of behavior that you are trying to change.

I don’t get the feeling that you really understand why you are trying to change them other than to make your W happy.

The changes have to be for you. Things that you don’t like about yourself or they are not going to stick and they aren’t going to work to make either of you happy.

So go back to your list that you started with Mach and really look at that stuff.

Work with him and others to figure out who you are and what you want.

And then see where you are…

[Breakdown]

Thank you so much Cat...I really appreciate your input and you make some really good points.

Something that happens when we hear that, is that we begin to look at every action as either controlling or not.

While that is good in some respects, there is the other side, and we begin to not set or enforce our own personal boundaries in order to not be seen as controlling.

The problem that this presents is that we can begin to view ourselves as doormats. It can erode our self-esteem further.

I see you doing that and I see your frustration with knowing what to do or not to do growing.

I have really just started looking at things I'm doing that could be considered controlling (and it seems like everything!). Mach made a point to me the other day that really helped me with this. But I can see where you are going with this and it's a pitfall I need to be aware of.

With that said, I do think I've been walking on eggshells for most of the last year. I think I've really only set one boundary....let me know what's going on in the evenings so I can plan accordingly. If plans change, please let me know. My wife sees that as controlling (of course!) so she has blown thru that boundary again and again.

You guys did RV, which is wonderful when two people actually want to work on the relationship, but I don’t know that it works if you both aren’t committed to it, and it doesn’t seem to me that your W is committed to it at all. (Just say so if I’m wrong).

I tend to agree. Even though they ask you when you register "Are you committed to working on your marriage?" and she said yes, I think she has just gone along with it so that she doesn't rock the boat. She participated, and continues to do so, but I question whether she takes it seriously. For example, we had to answer a question like "Why do you want to go on living" and I wrote a long time about improving myself, being a better father, a better husband, growing in my faith, etc etc. She wrote "I still want to travel to x and y." We actually got into an argument about it during our sharing period because she is not that shallow. I was simply shocked at what she wrote...I think she was too afraid, or simply unwilling to share her true thoughts.

I have chalked up the experience to an error on my part because I was expecting something different. But on the other hand, is it wrong to expect honesty and effort when that is what we're there for?

Are the things you are doing things that you want to do? Things that make you happy?

If you are spending all of your free time away from home, I could see her complaint as valid. If it’s one evening a week, and you spend the other six with her, then I see no reason why you should stop what you are doing.

I have really been struggling with GAL honestly. I have been working out this year, but in the last 3 months, I've been doing insanity at home rather than going somewhere. My hobbies have always been things in and around the home, so I'm always here. I have been playing golf on Weds and then usually going to dinner after, and I've been trying to get together with either my brother or friends once per week as well, but otherwise, I'm just here. And since I work from home, that's about 95% of the time.

I don't necessarily think being here is a problem....we have 5 kids and they are all active. It's a chore just getting them to and from stuff and making dinner. But, I totally believe she takes me for granted. She expects me to pick up the slack when she decides to grab a couple of beers with someone (without even telling me). A few times I just decided to do my own thing regardless of what she did, but the kids ended up getting the shaft and I felt so guilty no one made them dinner. They're old enough to make themselves something if they have to, but I still felt guilty.

Another woman has called your W a whore based on her R with this woman’s H. Do you feel that way?

Because if you do, it permeates into your interactions with your W.

No, absolutely not....that's not the woman I married, nor the mother of my children. But, with that said, there is a deep seeded fear in me that maybe I don't truly know my wife. When I found out about the sexting thing, it destroyed me. I was already insecure...and then my worst fears became reality. Add to that the fact that over the last year, she has not really acted like herself. She has chosen to hang out and drink with people she works with rather than be around her family. She has explained that it's me she had chosen to avoid, not the kids, but the result is still the same. So yeah, I guess I still have a strong fear that I don't know her. What I'm trying to do now is trust that she is who I've known all these years, though confused and frustrated, and not let her behavior control mine.

How will you handle it if you reconcile and your W continues the R with this man?

I think it depends on the form it takes. If it's all business, I think I can live with it. If it's having 3 beers with him after work and then lying about it, I can't do that.

What are your W’s LL?

Words of affirmation. I actually talked to her about this a few weeks back. I am really ashamed of my behavior as I look at my past. Instead of feeding her her LL, I let my insecurity constantly tear her down. Not only did I not feed her love bank, I was constantly making withdrawals.

I've made progress in addressing my insecurity and not letting it control me, and I've made a conscious effort to voice my thoughts. For example, there have always been times I thought my wife looked great, but I just thought it. Now, I try to voice it when it pops in my head.

Unfortunately, after years of me being one way, she doesn't trust that I really mean anything I say nice. She thinks it's a ploy to keep her. I've struggled with this because saying what I feel is a change I want to make for me, and I know it's a change she wants as well, but it's definitely viewed as pursuing and she doesn't trust it.

What do you want your M to look like in the future in comparison to what it looked like in the past?

I want a partnership full of laughter and trust. I can honestly say, she wants the same thing. She has just given up thinking it can happen.

What are your LL?

My LL is quality time. I think that's always been my LL, but early in our marriage, I let other things get in the way. I wouldn't allow myself to have that.

Do you want to keep having a R with someone who is having an R with someone else?

No, certainly not. But I want to make sure my insecurities and controlling behaviors aren't getting in the way here.

Right now, you guys could go on like this indefinitely. Her doing her thing, you being there when she wants you there and being miserable when she doesn’t want you there.

Yeah, I think if I didn't say anything about anything, she'd just putt along and neither of us would truly be happy. She'd rather pretend it's ok and get her needs fufilled elsewhere than actually try to make our marriage fufilling to each other.

I don’t get the feeling that you really understand why you are trying to change them other than to make your W happy.

The changes have to be for you. Things that you don’t like about yourself or they are not going to stick and they aren’t going to work to make either of you happy.

I don't totally agree with that. I started thinking a little different about 2 years ago, started thinking about how I wanted to be, and why I felt certain ways. My changes were in their infancy but were slowly starting to develop. Unfortunately, my insecurity wasn't the first thing I addressed and that pushed my W to drop the bomb 6 months later. That accelerated my changes, but I still think they are for me.

I used to be unhappy and mad all the time. Even when I wasn't, it was simmering below the surface. I never really took a hard look at it. My priorities were work and success (defined as making more money). Sure, I wanted certain things for my kids and certain values for them, but it was like I was looking thru a pinhole instead of seeing the whole picture.

I've stripped away that anger, forgiven my parents for their mistakes, forgiven myself for mine, forgiven my wife for hers, and tried to take a view of "how do I want things...assuming a clean slate" and work towards that. I've torn down most of my internal walls and let my family in. My definition of success has changed to the quality of my relationships, including my relationship with God. I'm becoming who I want to be, not existing as the broken person my parents created.

And my W thinks it's great. She is almost brought to tears when she talks about how great my relationships are with the kids now. She had a deep need for me to be a spiritual leader for our family that I didn't know about (though I probably wouldn't have done it years ago even if I did honestly), and I am meeting that now. She likes that I've changed from being judgmental to understanding (mostly...still working on it). She says, "you'll be great for your next wife" and then is angry that it wasn't that way for her. She says that I don't really want her, it's just comfortable, or easier than finding someone new. That breaks my heart, because as we all know, this isn't easy!

So go back to your list that you started with Mach and really look at that stuff.

Work with him and others to figure out who you are and what you want.

And then see where you are…

Yep, I am going to keep working it. I have told my wife, hey, this is a livelong process that I feel I've just started. I've changed completely, and I'm going to continue to change, to become who I want to be. I've committed to retrov even if she doesn't want to go....it helps me grow as a person. And I'm not giving up on her....even if she goes thru with the D.

[Breakdown]

Posted this in my bootcamp thread, but I would like some other folks to have a look and input. W moved out Friday and I'm struggling a bit with the aftermath.

Interesting day so far...W shows up to take S17 to orientation. Friendly banter, then she looks at me and says "I'm have a hard time" and then hugs me. I'm like, yeah, me too. The hug was awesome. I told her she looked great.

She wanted to go look at a car after orientation so we went and kept it friendly. When we get back to the house she ask if I'm going to be gone Wed night so she can see kids. We talk a little and she says, if you're not uncomfortable, you are welcome to join us for dinner. OK, great.

Then she asks me if she's going to be able to stay at the house next week. Wow, I guess she forgot she told me she would pick them up for next week. I think my BIL must have nixed the entire family deal. I said "I'm not planning on leaving the house" and she said "so I have to see them when you say until I get a divorce decree?" Sheesh, wth just happened. I said, "No, you can take them...your visits don't have to be here." There's some silence and then I say "I think there are clearly a number of things we need to discuss going forward" and she agrees to set up some time with me to discuss later this week.

I was trying to keep it upbeat and friendly, but she took my head for a spin there at the end. I don't think the discussion is going to go well, and she's going to be p!ssed when I tell her I'm not going to agree to swap weeks. Any advice on how to do this gently??