My point is, you said you couldn't care less about the fan. So why don't you respond in that manner? Not flippantly but graciously leaving it up to him.
Why have this struggle if you really don't care?
M:63 H:53 S:41, SS:28, SS:25, SD:23 M:15 T:16
Bomb:12/17/11, "I think we should go our separate ways." H moves to his mother's house, 4/1/12 12/21/12: H moves back home, piecing
I think I get it. You're saying that in some cases H will seek to involve you in some decision, or you will involve H by asking him for help with something, or suggesting something you want to do together.
If you make your opinions or desires known, in whatever way that happens, H will either refute your views on the spot, or disregard them later.
In short, whatever you say or request just doesn't seem to matter to H in the details, and that makes you feel disrespected and disregarded.
Do I have that right? I can see why that would be horribly frustrating.
WRT the fan example, here's a suggestion -- you got into an argument about technical details. What would happen if you said "I don't like that fan, there's just something about it I don't like." How is he going to argue with that? You're not telling him *what* you don't like, only that you don't like it. Then, look at the fans yourself, and suggest some alternatives, and let him select from your choices.
If he keeps pushing you about *why* you don't like it, just say "I don't know, why does it matter? You can't convince me that I DO like it, I just don't"
What would happen in a scenario like that, where you didn't give him any details to argue about, and engaged in suggesting alternatives?
It does seem to me like there are a ton of things about H that bother you, but that if you felt respected and listened to, I would bet many of them would become non-issues. i.e. if he has impulse control problems, but defers to you when it matters, you may not care when he brings home some inexpensive trinket you don't like. In the context where you feel disrespected however, you're just looking for things to be annoyed by.
I was interested as well that you referenced a parallel to my sitch. I've been thinking about that for two days -- what do you think the parallel is?
I did like your lemonade example because I agree that people get caught up in the details versus the dynamic. At the same time, the details are so illuminating, I particularly like it when you quote dialog.
Accuray
Married 18, Together 20, Now Divorced M: 48, W: 50, D: 18, S: 16, D: 12 Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 7/13/11 Start Reconcile: 8/15/11 Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 5/1/2014 (Divorced) In a New Relationship: 3/2015
But she said she didn't care about the fan. Why not respond that way? She also said she didn't care that he would screw it up and yet, that's not how she responds. There's an incongruity here.
M:63 H:53 S:41, SS:28, SS:25, SD:23 M:15 T:16
Bomb:12/17/11, "I think we should go our separate ways." H moves to his mother's house, 4/1/12 12/21/12: H moves back home, piecing
I get that Scaredsilly, if she truly didn't care about the fan, she wouldn't have offered any comment at all -- so she at least cared a little -- but I don't think the fan is the issue.
The example I saw highlighted here was that:
1) She didn't think they needed to buy a fan *yet*, but H insisted they go to Home Depot anyway -- CV is disregarded
2) She tells H the fan is too big / won't fit / whatever, and H doesn't engage in a discussion with her, just insists he's right -- CV is disregarded
3) They get home and H measures out the mounting area to prove to CV that the fan WILL fit. CV says that according to his measurements, the fan will have to be hung too low. H says "no it won't, that's not too low" -- CV is disregarded
I think we can argue all day that the fact that they're doing the deck project together is a good thing, the fact that H wanted CV to come to Home Depot with him is a good thing, the fact that H did not buy the fan on the spot is a good thing and at least went home to measure first, the fact that H bothered to tell CV that the fan WOULD fit before just going back to buy it is a good thing, etc. etc. etc. There's a lot of silver lining here, but to me the example of what CV thinks is wrong with her marriage is the triple-disregard up above.
I would imagine that if your opinion is asked and then constantly dismissed that's going to get on anyone's nerves.
I think the only two ways out of that are:
A) You teach yourself to care less by changing your perception and focus
and/or
B) You dig in harder and do not ALLOW yourself to be disregarded -- in effect you make your marriage WORSE in the short term to make it better in the long term. That's boundary setting and enforcement which has been discussed on this thread before. To do this, you have to be ready to take it up a notch and make a scene, and be comfortable with finding your own way home. It might mean making some irrational short-term decisions. i.e. if H buys you a van without rear A/C, you sell it and go buy a car yourself, if you take a loss you don't worry about it. If you tell H not to install a fan you don't like and he does it anyway, you hire an electrician to take it down and dispose of it. It gets worse, but when he sees that you're serious and what the consequences are, then it gets better.
Accuray
Married 18, Together 20, Now Divorced M: 48, W: 50, D: 18, S: 16, D: 12 Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 7/13/11 Start Reconcile: 8/15/11 Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 5/1/2014 (Divorced) In a New Relationship: 3/2015
I'm thinking it would have to be some of each (A and B). As in let go of the little things (and avoid the many little traps), choose your battles wisely, and then mean what you say about the important things.
I think it would be very hard, if not impossible, for her to do this. At this point, I don't think she wants to. And, that's ok. She just have to live with that choice.
M:63 H:53 S:41, SS:28, SS:25, SD:23 M:15 T:16
Bomb:12/17/11, "I think we should go our separate ways." H moves to his mother's house, 4/1/12 12/21/12: H moves back home, piecing
My point is, you said you couldn't care less about the fan. So why don't you respond in that manner? Not flippantly but graciously leaving it up to him.
Why have this struggle if you really don't care?
Scared, I was trying to get off of the details again. I DO care about the fan. I'm spending one heck of a lot of time and money on this deck for H to stick some obnoxious fan on it. When I said I didn't care, I was speaking to KD about the point I was trying to make, that it didn't have anything to do with the fan or about what process H has to go through to figure out his idea won't work. What you're suggesting, I do. All. The. Time. There are many times that I do exactly what you're suggesting when I only mildly care about something, because I care more about avoiding the exchange with H than getting some thing I only sort of care about besides. Where to eat, what to eat, when to eat, what movie to rent, how many movies to rent, what he wears, what time his kids come over, what to do with them when they come over, should we give them gifts, what to get them for gifts, how much to spend on the gifts, when to give them gifts, which car to take, whether now is a good time to fill the gas tank, which gas station to go to, what kind of gas to put in, should we bring the dog, should we bring s, should we stop and get milk, what are we doing tomorrow, what are we doing this weekend, what are we doing for vacation, what are we doing for Christmas, etc. In fact, I've started saying, "Whatever you want, dear" so much, H is getting aggravated by it.
In fact, the ONLY time I offer an opinion anymore is when I really care or have a personal vested interest.
Now, can you answer my question? What do you suggest I do when I DO care about something.
Originally Posted By: Accuray
If you make your opinions or desires known, in whatever way that happens, H will either refute your views on the spot, or disregard them later.
In short, whatever you say or request just doesn't seem to matter to H in the details, and that makes you feel disrespected and disregarded.
Yes.
Originally Posted By: Accuray
It does seem to me like there are a ton of things about H that bother you, but that if you felt respected and listened to, I would bet many of them would become non-issues
Or better said, the fact that he doesn't respect and listen to me are the only problems, and all the other things are just manifestations of that.
Originally Posted By: Accuray
WRT the fan example, here's a suggestion -- you got into an argument about technical details. What would happen if you said "I don't like that fan, there's just something about it I don't like." How is he going to argue with that? You're not telling him *what* you don't like, only that you don't like it. Then, look at the fans yourself, and suggest some alternatives, and let him select from your choices.
If he keeps pushing you about *why* you don't like it, just say "I don't know, why does it matter? You can't convince me that I DO like it, I just don't"
What would happen in a scenario like that, where you didn't give him any details to argue about, and engaged in suggesting alternatives?
I used to do that. That's why I developed the approach of telling why I don't like something, because my opinion held no validity whatsoever. My opinion can be argued against and disqualified. Facts are external to me have and some inherent value.
Quote:
I was interested as well that you referenced a parallel to my sitch. I've been thinking about that for two days -- what do you think the parallel is?
Accuray, I believe your reference is to: "he's got a great attitude, a very positive and empathetic approach to his W's shortcomings. But...." I meant that although you're interacting in a very positive way, doing everything that you can regarding understanding and accommodating your W's shortcomings, I think you're not happy. I know you want more. I'm not sure that you're sure it's enough, long term.
