Thread #7 - What goes down, might come up.

[25yearsmlc]

what Kaffe said^^^...

((( )))

PS

maybe, just maybe, her drinking is a blessing in disguise.

I mean, It does clarify a few things doesn't it?

[Navyguy]

She took it easy today...only a full bottle of wine before I got home. Definitely tried to hide it too.

25...I know this should be clarifying things...but im having trouble finding that clarity.

[~ kd ~]

Navy, your W is hiding it. My mom, I think by best guess, has been hiding it for 30+ years. That's about when her and my dad stopped going out socially (I think about the time he had his affair).

I will not advise you what to do. There IS nothing you can do. I mean I will not tell you to get out and get on with your life for your sake and your kids. That is a choice you will have to make... every day...

Just as she will make the choice, every day, whether she will or will not drink... or whether she will or will not admit she has a problem, seek help, and continue to choose not to drink.

[heartbrokeinsd]

navy-
kd is right. it is her choice. one she and she alone will make. there is absolutely nothing u can do.

[25yearsmlc]

She took it easy today...only a full bottle of wine before I got home. Definitely tried to hide it too.

25...I know this should be clarifying things...but im having trouble finding that clarity.

for me in your sitch, it'd be the last straw. But I'm not you.

So, perhaps try Al Anon? You might be pleasantly surprised - and it cannot hurt.

It also sends a real message to your w, without any words.

[Navyguy]

Hey everyone.

It's been a heck of a week. We, along with most of the DC/Virginia area lost power Friday night. Ours didn't come back up until Monday. I was home with W the entire time, and we actually got along pretty well through it. We spent a lot of time sitting outside on the deck together and going places with the kids to keep cool.

On top of that, S4 caught Hand Foot and Mouth disease. On Saturday he had a fever in the 105-106 range, so I took him to the ER. We had given him tylenol, and of course, by the time we got there, he was down to 99 and the triage nurse was looking at me like I was crazy. Oh well, better safe than sorry.

Power came back on around dinner time on Monday. Since then, W has gone back into her shell...not talking to me, sitting outside FB'ing and smoking for 3-4 hours a day, and walking around in the house with her headphones in. She's so much fun to be around.

I started my new IC last week. The initial session was good. I explained the story with W in 2 hours, and then we set some goals for my IC. My #1 goal: come to grips with the fact that my M is over. #2 goal: start the process to move on from this M in the way that is best for my kids and I.

IC gave me a couple books on D to read - one for me that talks about the emotional and legal issues, and one for how to handle things with the kids. I've finished a few chapters of both books. They are both good and I think they will serve me well.

We also discussed the possibility of W and I living together like this for the next 7-8 years (until I can retire from the Navy) as W has proposed. We pretty quickly came to the conclusion that that's not going to work for anyone. I really think W is planning on that...and I don't even know if she's looking for an "escape" anymore. A couple times in the past week, she has mentioned some long-term plans that made it sound like we'll keep doing this for years to come.

It's looking more and more like I'm going to be the one to file here, probably sometime in the next couple months. That'll give W a year to finish her degree and get on her feet...seems fair to me....she tells me she's been unhappy for over 6 years now, but hasn't done much about it.

[Starsky309]

Navy,

Why are you concerned about being "fair" with your wife at this point? If you decide to go the D route, I'd suggest treating it like the business/legal transaction that it is, and look to protect yourself and your kids.

Your only obligation to your wife at this point is to be kind, civil and courteous.


Starsky

[Navyguy]

Starsky - Not sure that I agree that a D is just a business/legal transaction. For me, the emotional impacts of D are going to far outweigh the financial impacts. Yes, I need to make sure that my kids and I are taken care of - but again, I am more worried about the emotional impacts to us than anything else.

Last night, W was sitting outside and I had just finished watching a movie. I decided that I'd go talk to W about how she's been treating me the past few days.

I started by telling her that I realize we are done. She has told me that numerous times. She wants us to remain friends and for us to co-habitate and raise our kids. I got it...message recieved, loud and clear.

Then I told her that I have felt over the last few days that she doesn't want to be a friend - or even be around me at all. She acknowledged that it is hard for her to be around me for extended periods of time (i.e. when I have days off from work), because she feels like I have these expectations of her.

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Then we got to talking about the "vicious cycle" that we are in. We both agreed it was happening. Here's how it goes:

1. She constantly feels like she has to do certain things or act a certain way to prevent me from getting upset and to keep me "pacified", so we don't get into an argument. I think this started 4-5 years ago.

1a. When a friend (or W) doesn't talk to me, or avoids me, is short with me, or needs to drink to be around me, I naturally wonder what I did that made them not want to talk to me.

2. I start trying to figure out what I did wrong and/or what is bothering W. By doing so, I start "trying" too hard. I become needy/clingy/etc. This makes W feel even more like she has to act a certain way to keep me from getting upset, which in turn makes her more upset and makes her pull further away (i.e. walking around the house with the headphones, sitting out on the deck by herself, drinking, etc.).

3. Her behaviors make me even more upset, and on top of that, I still have no idea what I did that is causing her behavior. Eventually I get to the point where I "need" to talk to her about how she is treating me.

4. I initiate a talk with her. These talks used to have the overarching theme of "W, I don't understand why you are treating me like this and why you don't want to work on our M". Lately, they have had the theme of "W, I can't continue living this way. If you are so miserable that you feel you have to treat me the way you are and/or avoid me, then we need to start working on ending our M". To W, there is no difference between these themes. All she hears from me is "W, change your behavior to please me, or get out of the house".

5. Our talk ends up going nowhere, and we both get upset and defensive. She ends up pulling all the skeletons out of the closet, and I tell her that those things happened 5 years ago, I owned & apologized for them, fixed the things I was doing wrong, and don't understand why she can't accept what she has in front of her today. What she hears: "W, I have done all this work to fix our M, and you continue to do nothing except dwell on the past...I am right, you are wrong".

6. The talk/argument eventually ends, but I have just further reinforced the idea in W's head that she needs to act a certain way to keep me happy, and she resents that. I walk away thinking that she now understands that she can't treat me like crap. She then feels like she is walking on eggshells around me. I feel like I am walking on eggshells around her. Both of us are stressed, all the time.

7. Eventually an event happens (lately it has been our slew of May/June holidays) which trigger my expectations and/or W to start to pull away again...and we're right back to step #1/1a.

This has been happening to us over and over and over. I wanted to post this because I think it could help someone out there. This is "what not to do" - and if you take a hard look at the basic principles of DBing, they exist to stop this cycle. I bet a lot of people are doing this same thing - but it's so hard to see it happening when you're caught in the middle of it.

I don't blame W for this cycle, and I don't blame myself either. It's just been happening, and we're both caught in the middle of it.

Yes, I have made myself a better man, father, and husband. I am a good person that deserves to be loved and respected. But when this cycle is happening, none of that matters...in fact, it probably worked against me, and caused the cycle to get worse.

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After W and I had defined and agreed on the vicious cycle, we started to talk about what we could do to break it and make our living situation acceptable for both of us. Neither of us had an answer - so I asked her if she would be willing to go talk to someone with me to help figure it out. She said yes.

I have IC today - so I plan to go over this with her and see if she has a recommendation for someone that can help us.

I don't have any hope of saving our M at this point - this counseling will strictly be to see if we can come up with a plan that works for both of us. It may even cause us to realize that the "plan" is unfeasible and that we need to D. I told W that I can either get some names of counselors and she can call them and find whomever she's comfortable with, or I can set up the appt. She told me to set up the appt.

I said ok, and then went to bed. W came in a few minutes later and asked me if I was ok, then she said "sorry I've upset you". It was a real apology - unsolicited and without sarcasm. I told her that she didn't need to apologize...it's not her fault...it's nobody's fault. Then I said I was sorry for making her feel like she needed to act a certain way to make me happy, and I went to sleep.

[Starsky309]

Starsky - Not sure that I agree that a D is just a business/legal transaction. For me, the emotional impacts of D are going to far outweigh the financial impacts.

You misunderstand what I'm saying, Navy. I'm not saying a divorce isn't going to be an emotional event. I'm saying you would be wise not to let emotions guide your decision-making during the process.

Protect yourself, protect your kids, protect your finances, and be as emotional as you want about it. But don't try to placate your wife in the process, thinking it will score you some sort of "points." That's a recipe for long-term disaster.

99.9% of the people who do, report regretting it.


Starsky

[Harrier]

My thoughts...in reverse order.

When she apologizes, I think a lot of time the tendency is try to help her alleviate the need for apologizing. So you say ... "you doesn't need to apologize." Stop that. Just say, "thanks for saying that or something like that." By saying she didn't need to apologize you just minimized things and it is PART of your cycle. It takes the wind our of her sails and the reason for doing it is to try to keep the peace. You turn what she said and make it about you. Maybe she feels the need to apologize....by all means let her.

You are still looking at someone else to make the D choice for you. You have presented your situation here and even people like 25 say it might be time to move on. yet you are looking for someone else to help push you two along.

As for the cycle. It starts and ends with you, unfortunately. Because of expectations and "just wanting to know" but your Wife is taking an immature approach to it.

She is being conflict avoidant. Conflict isn't deadly to a marriage, but how you fight can be. I mean a lot of people here say "we never fought." what you are really saying is that we never resolved conflict.

In a healthy relationship, you should be able to express your needs to your partner, and the partner should be able to answer you.

In your case, You W assumes your needs or you don't articulate them. Then your W reacts to that by not addressing what's going on but assuming. She then acts out. You react, etc. she reacts, etc. You see the cycle.

You can break it, but her going to IC isn't the whole part of it.

i know this gets asked all the time, but how did you guys meet? how were you different?

i wish I had more answers for you.