When it's a one-way street...part 7

[adinva]

You missed my point on the pickiness. That's the trouble with hypotheticals that you made up and filled in all the details just so...they tend to lead only to your conclusion.

You built it so that he would ask your opinion, you'd state it and he'd ignore it. But you also built in that you were dreaming of caffeine and refreshing iced tea. So you had a preference for what you said you wanted, and you were prepared to be upset or mad if he did what you expect him to do and get it wrong. The correct answer in that scenario would have been, "hon, thanks for asking but don't worry about it." You knew he'd get it wrong, it's what he does. Either say "Whatever, iced tea would be nice but I don't care that much." or "Nah it's ok I'll get my own." You KNOW how he is and instead of using that info, you wallow in it and are continually offended by your interpretation of it (he's a narcissist, he doesn't respect your humanity, etc etc).

Give us more real examples and less constructed ones and we can possibly help more. You've set up an impossible sitch and you kind of push away any help as something you already considered and ruled out.

That's why to you the overriding is the important part, and I keep going to the details which you made up. Your offense is based on your perception of events that could be interpreted differently, and you can change your perception by considering the details on their own merits. Give us stories with real details.

You asked how I handled his dissatisfaction and what my goal was, and arrogance. Well first of all, I only had the tools I had at the time, which were imperfect. My way of dealing with unreasonable criticism came from my childhood, and it was primarily disbelieving the criticism, thumbing my nose mentally at the perpetrator, becoming either lazy/forgetful or flat out oppositional, and working to make myself happy regardless. I didn't see it at first. I just wondered why I was feeling like a teenager/dad relationship with my H. I knew it wasn't right. I knew he was certainly being outrageously unfair and I just didn't understand why. He's a smart guy and my partner for life, why is he acting like this? I could not figure it out. All my foibles were justifiable, explainable, not really all that bad, or not as bad as his obvious foibles, in my mind. I was alarmed periodically and then would forgive and forget and carry on with my very busy life as a mom of small children, businessperson, and community volunteer as well as home maker. I kept my nose to the grindstone and sought appreciation outside the home. We bickered a lot and I felt that was good because I was standing up for myself, showing him how I wanted to be treated, and expressing my anger in a healthy way. I thought perhaps his personality changed, or job stress had increased, or he was depressed, or all of the above.

Above all, I did not arrogantly think he wouldn't divorce me, I thought we were perfect for each other. Because he was a bully and I could handle a bully without losing my self esteem (too much). I always thought he would do anything rather than divorce because he is so extremely cheap. Plus we made vows before God and everyone we knew. We'd had discussions about friends who divorced. I honestly thought life might have handed me lemons but we would always be married and should work it out somehow together. I also always believed we would get help when we needed it. I thought we were getting to that point but he kept refusing counseling and acting a little better for a while, so I knew we were ok. I loved him in a broad, lifelong, general way, in spite of sometimes feeling like I hated him in the details. I could not believe he would consider divorce. A couple of times in the really bad year I asked him if we were ok and he said we were. He flat out lied to me, and hid his real feelings from me, until he was ready and done. (I'm angry at the cowardice of that.)

My H would say he gave me a thousand chances too. When he walked in and barked at me that there was something of mine on the floor (right next to something of his on the floor that I chose not to answer back with), and stormed upstairs to bed, he would say he was communicating his dissatisfaction. It was such a passive aggressive and unreasonable-seeming pattern that I just plain did not see it until we were in counseling. Since the bomb I have learned a huge amount about how I come across, I have apologized, I have accepted my role in how things got this way, and I have made many changes in how I relate with him, perceive him, and respond to his needs. (and I'm a bit angry too that he has not seen any of this; he stated that we're getting along so well because of him and how he's handling this...)

I wouldn't have said "you'll never leave me because I'm golden" but I thought "you'll never leave me so I have the comfort to deal with my anxieties and overwhelming life responsibilities, and be imperfect because I know you love me forever no matter what" and I thought "I'm golden, a perfect wife for you because I'm so understanding and resilient in the face of your job stress, enormously unusual expectations of your spouse, paranoia and secrecy, complete about face about guns in the house when we had an agreement before, just a million little ways I grew and adapted as he changed over the years. I forgave him an affair! and never made him go to counseling! I really thought I was an outstanding wife to him and a good match for him.

The yes-but and no-buts, well, my best response is that it took this bomb to open my eyes. I know lots of people who got a bomb and did not open their eyes, and went forward with divorce and new lives full of bitterness and fighting their ex. I happened to choose to open my eyes and get help. It's taken GOOD therapy and a lot of effort on my part. But my H had to be at the point where he was ready to walk away. You say you're not there yet. Also, you've had counseling so it won't likely be the black-white about-face it was for me.

So your next comment was not knowing how to bold-face your message because I got caught up in the minutiae. I argued (above) that the minutiae matter. When you state your overarching theory, it is based on the details you provided. When I argue the details you're frustrated that I missed the overarching theory, and around and around we go. My H thought I didn't listen, and I thought he didn't say anything (reasonable, or that I could understand). I'm stumped for you.

So I'll say more why M is worthwhile, and it may not speak for you. With my faulty H, and my faulty self, we agreed before God and family to be together, to raise our family and make a home and love each other. I want companionship, love, affection, and as much of a guarantee that you can get in this world, that someone will be there for you when you're old or get cancer and your hair falls out, or you're cranky in the morning. Someone who KNOWS you deep down and inside out and you know them that way too. Someone to share life's joys and pains with, jokes and stories and history with. Someone to be on your side and think you're great. Someone to make babies with and raise them with. Together we were more than the sum of our parts. We have this great house and fun life and more than we could afford or do alone. I genuinely like who he is. I love the life we built. Marriage to me was the closest you get to a guarantee of all that and more.

You asked what you're missing in why I've been dbing for a year. Well, a year ago I was shocked and in denial that he could possibly really mean that he didn't love me, would never love me, and was going to split up our family and home. Not possible. If there was even a remote glimmer of a chance that he was mistaken, I'd turn the world upside down to make it possible to reconcile. It didn't involve him committing to change a thing...yet. The responsibility was all mine to show him marriage to me could be different and better. If he got that message and was interested, then the work would begin. I was not expecting him to change or want to change at the stage we were at, not until we were piecing, which only comes after he's had a change of heart. I'm disappointed that didn't happen (yet) but I knew the odds were bad. The odds are bad for all of us here. DBing isn't a trick to save your marriage...it's a way of preventing yourself from adding to the problem in case you have the ridiculous luck to have a spouse who is open to changing his mind.

You asked what I valued in my M the last couple of years or what I was getting out of it. A home, two parents for my boys, financial security, health insurance, the ability to buy Starbucks and go on vacations. An imperfect H who would always be there in spite of my own imperfections. A certainty that when our problems became big enough we'd get help and get better. A history that suggested to me that where we had slipped to was not set in stone - my H's personality did not match what I knew of him; I was confused and startled but never saw it as a permanent change or something we couldn't somehow overcome and get better.

I do not expect my H to db because he doesn't want to be married to me. His goal is to get divorced as painlessly as possible and move on. Why I'm DBing is I still have hope. I still think us together is better than us apart, for us and for the kids. I think we can get through this to a more mature vision of love and marriage. My parents made it through bad times, I expected I would too. I'm not the same person I was at 27 when we got married, or at 31 when we had kids, and neither is he. We were never guaranteed to have the same spouse we started with but it's a point of honor and commitment to me that I would love and honor whoever it was that he turned into, and he would do that for me.

Suxx for me that it didn't turn out that way (yet), but I have a lot more tools and knowledge, and mental/emotional skills, to bring to the project later if I get the chance.

[Crazyville]

Thanks again, Adinva. You've given me so much, I'm going to chunk this out a bit so that it's not so overwhelming a post. I'll try not to miss anything, but let me know if I do.

That's the trouble with hypotheticals that you made up and filled in all the details just so.

I used the hypothetical as a visual, something to put an example to the words behind it. The words behind it are simply, "My H invites me to share my opinion, my interests, about my life, then overrides my opinion/my interests with his own. I find it offensive." Honestly, it's hard to put it into words that actually get across what I'm trying to say. It's easier to describe in a word picture. I used to give real-life examples in my posts but that just came across as whining or complaining. Plus, a hypothetical example is less emotional for me.

For you, I'll give one. You can tell me if it helps.

Purchasing our last van a couple of years ago, the vehicle that I drove ...
CV: We should probably start thinking about looking for a new van. This one is getting a lot of miles on it.
H: Okay! Let me do it! I love shopping for cars!
CV: Okay, sure, but there's no hurry. I'm just looking ahead.
H: Got it! What do we want to get?
CV: I really don't care. My only requirement is that it have rear air-conditioning, with driving S around and him in the back all the time.
H: That shouldn't be a problem.
Two days later, H pulls in the driveway with a different van, all excited.
CV: What is that?
H: It's our new van if you want it!
CV: Does it have rear air-conditioning?
H: No, but... blah-blah-blah.
CV: I told you we didn't need to rush, and my only requirement was that it have rear air-conditioning.
H: I know, but ... blah-blah-blah.
I just walked off.

Is a real-life example somehow more helpful than the hypothetical? If it is, I can do that.

You knew he'd get it wrong, it's what he does.

He doesn't always get it wrong. It's really sort of a crapshoot as to when/where/how he will. Sometimes I think he's really just trying to be creative. Sadly, he's better when we're at odds than when we're amicable. I think he gets comfortable and lazy. He's training me that I need to be b@tchy to him if I want decent treatment. Weird. Besides, even if he was like that 100% of the time and made it simple, I don't know how to build a healthy M R with someone like that.

[adinva]

Thanks CV. I realized the point I was trying to get across is that your feelings are based on your perceptions of your observations. Your trying to paint a picture that sets us up to agree with your perception isn't working because to solve your problems you need to learn to change your perceptions and the meanings you attach to some of your observations.

For example, I thought you were saying he doesn't listen, he asks your opinion and then doesn't care what it was, and that's basic disrespect for you (I'm approximating and may not be getting it exactly right), and now you're saying he doesn't always, sometimes he does, sometimes he doesn't. It's hard to tell if you're responding unreasonably to his sometimes getting it wrong then.

The van example is great, thanks! I'd be pissed too. He sounds like he has ADD, does he? Or impulse control issues? Anyway, you mentioned that he specifically got the rear A/C wrong, but he was all excited about something you paraphrased as "blah blah blah" - did you listen to him or try to understand why he thought it was ok to override the A/C requirement?

It sounds like you immediately read this as a lack of respect (?) because your response certainly conveyed your lack of respect for him. You walked off? Was it to cool off so you could discuss it when you were more calm?

It should be appropriate in a relationship for you to hear his stuff and agree that in fact it does make sense to override the rear A/C, or hear it and say, no it doesn't so he'll need to return the car. He did say it's yours "if you want it." and you didn't. So did it get returned?

It sounds like you read into all of his errors or mistakes in judgement a larger message that is final and irrevocable. Like, he doesn't respect you as a human, or he is narcissistic. My H accumulated so much baggage that he did not deal with about me, that it colored our every interaction and made him look unreasonable.

One thing I think I see as a trend is that you sit passive with your resentment rather than taking a reasonable stand. Like causing a very small scene in a restaurant or sending back the new van (unless you did send it back) but you feel helpless because you don't like the alternative of dealing with it upfront. In my H I could see that that probably happened too and built up completely unreasonable resentment of me because you have to deal with things while they're still small.

[Crazyville]

but it's a point of honor and commitment to me that I would love and honor whoever it was that he turned into

Another thing I do with H. I hear what you're saying, but I don't see that mirrored in your actions. I heard resistance and disregard, even a little disdain for him and his behavior like you claim he had for you, thumbing your nose, being oppositional, etc. I don't think those things can co-exist with "love and honor." If you were really loving and honoring him as you say you are committed to, I don't believe any of this would have happened. Maybe it's just a different definition of love and honor.

Please don't take offense to what I just said. My H always does. I don't know how to address it any other way. I feel like people's actions should match their words. My H will argue adamantly that he values my opinion, two minutes after completely trashing it. I don't know how to sift through it to know the truth and I'm finding the same with what you just posted. Another example is "Above all, I did not arrogantly think he wouldn't divorce me" vs. "I was shocked and in denial that he could possibly really mean that he didn't love me, would never love me, and was going to split up our family and home. Not possible." Maybe it's just the words, maybe I listen/read too carefully (always thought that was a good thing.) Either way, I walk away feeling like I don't know which way is up. Our conversations can go on for hours because I can't make sense out of what he's saying, or I find inconsistencies and he can't connect the dots.

He flat out lied to me, and hid his real feelings from me, until he was ready and done. (I'm angry at the cowardice of that.)

It doubt is was cowardice. I suspect it was probably hopelessness, pointlessness, futility. When you feel like you've already done it a thousand times before and it didn't work, only a fool does the same thing over again expecting a different result. It might have been the easy way (bypass the effort of a pointless exchange) or the quick way (skip through the wasted time of the argument and get to where you're going to be anyway,) but I don't see it as cowardice. It's what I'm doing with H right now -- putting on an act so he gets what he wants because honesty and conversation is a waste of time with him.

Just noticed your other post. I'm going to wrap back to it.

[Crazyville]

Anyway, you mentioned that he specifically got the rear A/C wrong, but he was all excited about something you paraphrased as "blah blah blah" - did you listen to him or try to understand why he thought it was ok to override the A/C requirement?

Yes, I did listen. It was only x dollars, so it was a great deal; it had X thousand less miles on it, so it would buy us a year or two on the other one; we could drive it for a year or two and then still get a different one; it was in great shape; the dealer was going to throw in x, y and z if we bought it the next day; etc. His "excitement" was just the process of buying a new car. He's like some people with opening presents. It could have been a rusty piece of cr@p with 500k miles on it and he would have reacted exactly the same.

Thing is, I told him if he wanted it that badly, he could drive it and I would drive the car. He didn't want to do that because of blah-blah-blah (gas mileage, car seat, miles to work, etc.) He's not good with numbers, so he wasn't convincing me of anything regarding the financial savings. I did the numbers in my head as we spoke. I also asked him why he didn't call me from the dealership and asking me if my one requirement was actually a requirement, and he said it's because he wanted me to see the van.

I told him to take it back. I walked off because at that point I couldn't even stand to look at him.

My H accumulated so much baggage that he did not deal with about me, that it colored our every interaction and made him look unreasonable.

How would he have dealt with it? We did counseling. To the incident with the van, the counselor said, "This sounds just like the incident with the boat." What would you have expected your H to do? It sounds like I have that same pile of baggage. He and I could probably travel the world for a year and never have to wash an item of clothing.

but you feel helpless because you don't like the alternative of dealing with it upfront

NEVER a problem with me. Absolutely never. To the bad side of extreme. A problem I'm working on (aka. blunt, abrasive, etc.)

He sounds like he has ADD, does he? Or impulse control issues?

I don't know. A counselor once suggested that he did (ADD) but H didn't go anywhere with it. Like so many things, it's just not a problem for him.

It sounds like you read into all of his errors or mistakes in judgement a larger message that is final and irrevocable. Like, he doesn't respect you as a human, or he is narcissistic

If I strip all of my feelings and judgment about him, the questions still remain: How do I manage a healthy M R with him? How do I enjoy him?

[Crazyville]

It should be appropriate in a relationship for you to hear his stuff and agree that in fact it does make sense to override the rear A/C, or hear it and say, no it doesn't so he'll need to return the car.

I agree. I feel like I should be able to say, "Look H, this is the car that I drive. I'm responsible for toting S where he needs to be and I don't want it to be stinking hot in the back for him. Our current van is not dying, it's not urgent that we replace it right now. I don't want to have to deal with having to sell our current van and pay sales tax and all the other stuff involved for an interim van that doesn't have the one thing I want. Since it's my car, I feel like I should be able to have my one requirement met w/o argument from you."...

... without H responding, "Yeah, I know, but....."

That's when I walked away.

[Crazyville]

Oh, I forgot to add, "with the best of intentions, of course."

[Crazyville]

My way of dealing with unreasonable criticism came from my childhood, and it was primarily disbelieving the criticism, thumbing my nose mentally at the perpetrator, becoming either lazy/forgetful or flat out oppositional, and working to make myself happy regardless. I didn't see it at first. I just wondered why I was feeling like a teenager/dad relationship with my H. I knew it wasn't right. I knew he was certainly being outrageously unfair and I just didn't understand why. He's a smart guy and my partner for life, why is he acting like this? I could not figure it out. All my foibles were justifiable, explainable, not really all that bad, or not as bad as his obvious foibles, in my mind.

Don't have much to say about this except that I can completely relate this to my H. It's very unattractive in a 57yo man.

[Crazyville]

Sorry, I didn't want to miss anything in my chunking this out, so I'm pulling a few things from your earlier post.

I wouldn't have said "you'll never leave me because I'm golden" but I thought "you'll never leave me so I have the comfort to deal with my anxieties and overwhelming life responsibilities, and be imperfect because I know you love me forever no matter what" and I thought "I'm golden, a perfect wife for you because I'm so understanding and resilient in the face of your job stress, enormously unusual expectations of your spouse, paranoia and secrecy, complete about face about guns in the house when we had an agreement before, just a million little ways I grew and adapted as he changed over the years. I forgave him an affair! and never made him go to counseling! I really thought I was an outstanding wife to him and a good match for him.

You've paraphrased my version, but I would still relate your version to my H without any problem. This attitude is very hard to live with as a S. I think the problem is there's what's inside, which is what you see, and then there's what comes outside, which is what your H sees.

In reading this, and relating to your H if I were him, I would think, "Well, she's pleased with who she is. I'm happy for her. Unfortunately, I see it differently, and I don't feel like it's my right/job to "fix" her. At the same time, it's not what I want in a W and I can't be what she wants me to be. The best thing I can do is leave. Then she can continue on the way she has been, and I can be free to be me. Perhaps each of us will have an opportunity to meet someone that thinks more like us, and we can both be happy."

[Accuray]

This is an excellent discussion and I really appreciate both of your openness and honesty. It's so helpful to me to read and I appreciate it.

Accuray