Hi KD. You didn't chime in on my question before and I would love it if you did.
I asked:
What is the value of M? In other words, why does everyone do it? If someone doesn't feel like they're going to benefit from the decision in some way, why would anyone get M'd in the first place?
You responded to Accuray's post in a positive way. But his post seems to fly contrary to your position of "I'm not ready yet because I still want something out of M."
cv - i couldn't help thinking when i read your description about how your h hypothetically handles buying you a drink and what you presented your options as in terms of whether it would work towards improving your r with him.
do you think you could approach it from another perspective altogether? that maybe you could get your own drink, as you suggested, and that way get what you really want, but NOT see it as having anything to do with making your r better or worse?
i think we look too much, way too much towards our partners for satisfying those needs as proof that our relationships are in a good state. i know i did that in spades during my marriage with my h. and now when i look back, i see how i could have NOT used those little things as proof whether he cared about me or not.
you know this about your h - the way he deals with your requests, so if you simply just decide that you will not use those as proof of his feelings for you either way, you take a lot of pressure off yourself by having no expectations there. sort of a shrug it off - yeah he's like that but it doesn't have anything to do with how he feels about me, sort of thing.
i think we place too much importance on seeing how our spouses feel about us through whether they do things right for us or not.
the other thing that comes to mind is teaching by example - if you could show your h that you are willing to meet his needs (from his perspective, rather than yours), your own example may actually make him start changing something like that.
i think you've made a great stride towards that by agreeing to be intimate with him (you racknowledgment that he's happy to have that). warm feelings breed warm feelings - and you could actually take great advantage of that and use it as an opportunity to give him something he wants and work towards getting something you want. but it's only going to happen if YOU allow the warmth to grow.
you are lucky that you have this chance to have an intimate connection with him. many of us aren't allowed that with our WAS's and we would be so grateful to be able to build on that. so use the gift and chance you've been given to build on what you would like to work towards. i don't think you need to be just resigned to a "putting up with it fate" as you seem to think right now.
heck if you're going to "put up with it" until s grows up, you might as well just have fun doing it and grow closer to your h and have happy years together rather than miserable ones
hope you're doing well zig
me 46 H 38 M10yrs T 11 S10 BD ow 8/11 h filed 9/25/12
"if i could define enlightenment briefly, i would say it is the quiet acceptance of what is"
What is the value of M? In other words, why does everyone do it? If someone doesn't feel like they're going to benefit from the decision in some way, why would anyone get M'd in the first place?
You responded to Accuray's post in a positive way. But his post seems to fly contrary to your position of "I'm not ready yet because I still want something out of M."
In a literal sense, a M is a legal accord between two people to share their lives in some form in a financially responsible way.
Of course, that's my interpretation of the current condition of a legal M. It used to included some more strict moral aspects such as partner exclusivity, as well.
It seems to me that most people, while a formally, legal M is in some way desirable (even though many locations people who co-habitat and are physically intimate are legally M after a period of time, anyhow)... well, lets take the formal, legal and financial aspects out of this...
People have their own reasons to be in a intimate, mutually exclusive relationship.
So yes, we can certainly say that we do it because it serves us. Provides us with some benefit...
Which is an expectation...
Funny how our vows, if we formalize our M in a Christian forum, speak of no expectations... "for better or for worse, richer or poorer..." Well, then again, there is the expectation that we hold each other obligated to love and cherish, always, through both the bad and the good, or pretty much any time... THAT is a huge expectation that I am not sure the human condition is generally capable of...
Did I always expect that I would love my W? Or that she would always love me?
Why get M if we are simply going to dispose our relationships when the going gets bad or it no longer serves us. IOW, when we "chose" to no longer love our spouse...
I believe this is where people in the "love is a choice" camp make their assertion. We are happy with someone so we choose to be in love with them and act towards them in a loving way. And when we are not happy with them, we choose to NOT be in love with them and NOT act towards them in a loving way. So I suspect it's an assertion that we choose LOVE, without expectations... thus, love is a choice... vs. a way of being... as per those in the "love is a feeling" camp... an internal bucket which ebs and flows... yet still does include choosing to act in loving ways, even when the bucket is in an ebbing cycle...
Is one of the above right and the other wrong? Or is love really something bigger than what words can provide meaning for, having both a being / feeling AND a choice aspect to it?
BTW: My W played the "feeling" card first (ILYB) and then trumped it with the "choice" card... pretty much sealing the deal in her mind...
Back on focus...
Why do we assume that if it does not serve us NOW, that it may not serve us (with this same person) some time in the future?
Those questions in bold... they are questions that I feel people would do well to consider. What are our expectations going into a M? Or any type of long term, intimate R?
From a rational perspective, isn't M simply a socially irresponsible and misguided paradigm of human kind?
Or is it?
I got into a mutually exclusive R with my W because I wanted to.
I got M to my W because I wanted to be M to her.
I completely expected it to be an experience that I had not had before. And I completely expected it to have challenges... and values... many of which I had no idea what they might end up being...
And... I did NOT expect to be sitting on the threshold of D, even though I took my vows with the understanding that our current sitch would be part of the "for worse" assertion.
Kaffe, you seem to be extrapolating the no-expectations part of DB from the WAS situation to all marriage. I don't believe it's intended that way. There are expectations built into the marriage vows and there are expectations that are normal in a healthy married couple. You expect you'll have intimacy, you expect your spouse will care about you and love you, you expect that when problems come up you'll both try to deal with them.
When you have a WAS all bets are off because your odds are so bad that any expectations will hurt you and send the WAS running faster. But that doesn't mean people are supposed to go through life with no expectations of anyone. It's just a matter of having healthy expectations and being with someone who does likewise of you.
Adinva 51, S20, S18 M24 total 6/15/11-12/1/12 From IDLY to H moving out 9/15/15-3/7/17 From negotiating SA to final D at age 50 5/8/17-now: New relationship with an old friend __ Happiness is a warm puppy.
I guess there's a difference between expect as in "given my experience and what I understand of physics and the world and whatever else I know, this action will most likely have that result."
and expect as in "this action is going to have that result and nothing will stop it no matter what."
Mine is reasonable and the long-time concept that's been around seems to have the latter definition of expectation.
No one said there were guarantees.
I expected my husband to honor our wedding vows like I do, and all of a sudden he doesn't. [censored] for me. But to have gone 18 years not expecting him to, well I wouldn't have felt married and what would have been the point of it?
I expect to be at work tomorrow but a meteor could hit and we'd all be stardust. Should I plan on playing hooky?
Semantics, huh?
Adinva 51, S20, S18 M24 total 6/15/11-12/1/12 From IDLY to H moving out 9/15/15-3/7/17 From negotiating SA to final D at age 50 5/8/17-now: New relationship with an old friend __ Happiness is a warm puppy.
There are times when he is courteous. In fact, in the hypothetical, he's being courteous when he offers to get me something to drink.
Yes, this is kind of a tragedy, what is courteous and thoughtful in his world is not adequate in your world. You are looking at the same act from different perspectives and taking away two very different conclusions.
As you know, I have this problem in my own marriage. I tell W "it was great that you took our daughter downtown and out to lunch" and she hears that as a condemnation, a criticism, and a complaint.
So in that scenario, I'm your H -- I did something that I thought was well intentioned, sincere, and thoughtful, but I came away feeling like a jerk, and my W came away from the conversation hurt and angry.
We can play the game of "who is more reasonable" -- many of the folks I talk to about this tell me that the "average person" would not react to my comment in that way, so in the court of public opinion, I'm in the right on this one -- but that doesn't really win me anything. I still feel badly, and have a wife who feels badly from the interaction.
I brought her a lemonade -- she wanted an iced tea.
Originally Posted By: Crazyville
I think everything falls apart when his selfish desires come into play. If there was only one drink he was interested in, or he didn't want a drink at all, then he would get my drink as I asked.
He doesn't seem to see himself as selfish -- his self-image seems to be that he is a good husband who does his best to provide for your needs. Would you agree with that? I don't get the sense that he walks around saying "I'm going to take care of myself and too bad for you". When you complain, I don't get the sense that he says "yeah, so what? Too bad!" He truly seems to be surprised/confused by your reaction to him -- would you agree?
I guess his heart seems to be in the right place, he just fails in execution because he is oblivious or lacks some kind of "courtesy sense" that you think he should have.
Originally Posted By: Crazyville
BTW, I used my analogy with him previously and he immediately denied that he's like that, appalled that I would even suggest that he would act that way. I referenced an example for him, and he said that it was a long time ago. So he went from completely denying it to acknowledging it but discounting it because my example was a long time ago. So I gave him a more current example, and he went into his rationalization of why he did it. Bottomline, it's just not "real" a problem for him. It's either not true, not current, or justifiable.
So he's feeling like he keeps breaking rules that he's not aware of. Or he's aware of the rules, but he thinks they are silly or inconsequential, and that they shouldn't *really* matter.
It feels to me that his good intentions are a real asset for you. Without the good intentions you'd have a much worse problem. At the same time, the knowledge of those good intentions is probably what tortures you, because he'd be much easier to drop if he were willfully abusive or uncaring.
It feels to me that you only have two ways through this:
1) You need to align your perspective to match his version of reality -- this I believe is in line with some of what zig was recommending. Even though he brought you a lemonade, he still did something FOR you -- just not what you would have liked. This was still an act of service that you could appreciate for what it was. This takes some retraining on your part not to view the "lemonade instead of iced tea" as a slight or an offense. I don't know if you feel you can be successful with that or not, it's taking a glass half full perspective on everything, or assuming the best intentions. That's one path forward and doesn't require him to change anything.
2) The second path is to pursue negotiation with him. "You want to make me happy right? Here are some slight changes you could make that would make me happy. In return I will promise to X. Do you agree that you can make those changes? If not, could you propose something that might accomplish the same end?" On this path, you are working together. Your challenge is not to make the wall he has to hurdle over too high, and his challenge is to step up and hurdle it. Obviously this takes time, patience, and repetition, and you TRULY need to be happy when he makes progress and not just feign happiness and focus on everything else that's wrong.
I don't see another path, maybe someone else does. Does that help at all? You have raw materials, and you each have some blind spots that you need to help each other work around.
Accuray
Married 18, Together 20, Now Divorced M: 48, W: 50, D: 18, S: 16, D: 12 Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 7/13/11 Start Reconcile: 8/15/11 Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 5/1/2014 (Divorced) In a New Relationship: 3/2015
I got into a mutually exclusive R with my W because I wanted to.
By definition, this is an expectation of yours that your W will be faithful, though I'm confused enough by your response to not quite be sure if you settled on expectations are "good" or "bad." Your message to me seems to always follow my stating an expectation of mine, and you telling me I'm not ready, so I'm interpreting it as expectations are "bad" in your mind. If your W decided to no longer have an exclusive R with you, in spite of your expectation being based on the fact that she promised you she would, then by your conclusion, it is your responsibility to change your expectation that she will no longer be faithful, but that leaving the M would not be appropriate. You just have to redefine your M definition to be one where your expectation has changed to one in which she will cheat. On the positive note, no M would ever end because everyone would just do their own thing and their spouse would have to accept it and adjust their expectations to accommodate it. Of course, I can't really see any point to M at all then.
Your response is completely confusing to me in regards to your previous accolades to Accuray's post on the purpose of M. Accuray's definition was so direct and workable and something I could hope for, while yours was kind of a downer on M altogether, sorry. But I do appreciate your time and effort in responding. In any case, I am going to have some expectations of M. Period. With this H and/or the next. So it's not incredibly important that we understand each other. It may just be that we need to agree to disagree. By your definition, I'll never be ready. Unfortunately, I'm already M'd so I need to do something.
Zig, thanks for stopping in. I was watching your old post for several days with no action, and went looking for your update and saw that you had almost maxed another thread! You've been a busy girl! Catching up for me was like watching a whole season of a series back-to-back with all the ups and downs all packed together. I was exhausted for you!
Anyway, to your post, I've certainly had things over the years that I used to "measure" his love for me. This isn't one of them. I don't think he doesn't love me because he brought me the wrong drink, I just find it annoying that he overrides my wishes with his own. Overall, being with him is not a pleasure for me. I would feel the same way about someone that was not my spouse. I CAN get my own drink (figuratively) and I can do pretty much everything else, too. But with that being the answer to everything, it begs the question "why be M'd?"
As far as teaching by example, I believe I'm in that mode right now. I asked H if he was happy with the R for the last two weeks, since my change of behavior, and he said he was thrilled. I appreciate the confidence you have that he will learn by example. I wish I had the same confidence. That has never been my experience with him. But I'm doing it anyway for other reasons and I'll just see and let everyone know.
To the shared intimacy, I think you might be over-rating what we have. I've read your sitch and the "mistake" your H made. Ours is not like that, I assure you. If I had what you described with your H, sex would never be off the table. Short version, I've tried, I've asked, I've instructed -- it's still just all about H. I'm just saying, don't be jealous. Really.
