Hey Accuray, I didn't want to hijack Advina's thread, so I came back to mine to post an update. I don't have much to add to my sitch. Things are pretty much status quo for me, except that I'm dealing with it much better. I can't really say why, maybe just a resignation that this is how things are going to be.
I thought about venting about a couple incidents but just didn't take the time to dwell on it by posting. For one, I accepted H's invite to go out with him and his daughters on father's day, as an effort on my part to meet his needs. One of his daughters works at a country club and they offer a free event for members/family with food and fireworks. Well I didn't know you couldn't wear jeans at a country club, and none of them told me. I don't golf, I don't visit country clubs. They all do. I actually changed up from the shorts and flip-flops I was wearing beforehand to jeans and heels, thinking I was doing well for sitting on the lawn watching fireworks. When we got there, I wondered why everyone was looking at me, until I figured out it was because I was the only one out of 200 people that had on jeans. I just left and went home and changed. I really didn't feel much of anything. Perhaps disappointment. H thanked me for going, apologized for not telling me. All good from his perspective.
Then, I found a baby bird that had fallen from a nest a few weeks back, and S and I were raising it. We did it about 5 years ago and S remembers it fondly. Of course, while he was off at BS camp for a week, it was my responsibility. No problem, I like taking care of animals. The plan was to release it when it matured. Anyway, it had reached the point of setting it free, and H decides to do it with S when I'm not home. As if it's something I wouldn't like to be part of. He apologized, said it was a mis-queue. Again, I didn't really react, just felt disappointed. Plus, I hoped it would come back like the last one did, and it did later that evening.
I don't believe he ever did post anything on a board anywhere. I didn't go snooping, but I asked him about a week ago. He said he hadn't, that he was still reading, that he wasn't comfortable opening up in a public (albeit anonymous) setting like that. I'm guessing it has completely fallen off his radar by now.
Recently, he's been talking with his ex-wife's brother. This is someone we had a falling out with shortly after H and I got M'd. I know of it because I've been forwarding the calls/messages. H hasn't shared any of what they're discussing with me, why he called out of the blue after 17 years. I'm not sure if he's purposely hiding it or purposely excluding me or just thinking I wouldn't be interested or what. Understand, my H is someone that relays the one-liners he delivers at his 6:30 a.m. racquetball game when he sees me at 6:00 in the evening. Point is, he doesn't have a problem sharing unless he's hiding something. I wonder why he's not telling me, but again, it's just disappointing. I don't think I've actually been angry with him for two weeks. That's a switch for me.
But the biggest switch-up for me is that I've re-engaged with him sexually. Again, I'm not sure I can really say why, specifically. Part of it was reflecting on your sitch with your W. Part of it was a comment you made about me being someone that criticizes him and denies him sex, so that makes me lucky that he's engaging at all. Part of it was your comment about a spouse being solely responsible for meeting certain emotional needs. Part of it was the three bottles of wine we shared one evening with the neighbor across the street. It's not an emotional investment on my part, anyway, not this time. I think of your sitch with your W. I'm not doing it for me, I'm doing it to take it off the table. Sorry, I know it's something you're not happy with in your sitch. My H doesn't seem to mind.
My only concern about my sitch is that I feel like I'm stuffing my emotions so much that I have a hard time feeling anything at all, at least in regards to H. It's beginning to feel like it's just a role I'm playing, like I'm acting out a script. But H is ignorantly happy and I don't see any value in discussing reality with him. I don't have what you described I should have in a partner. I doubt I ever will. I've just stopped shooting for it. I don't know how you read the books you do and not get completely bent out of shape. I'm just having to let it go or I'll tear myself apart with frustration. In the meantime, perhaps until S is out of the house, I'll do my part, or "play" it as the case may be, to the best of my ability. I'm just not sure what option there is to improve anything.
Hmmm, I guess I did have a bit to update on afterall.
I don't know how you read the books you do and not get completely bent out of shape.
I read the books because I'm already bent out of shape -- I'm saying "what can I do to make this better?" The books do indeed often make it temporarily worse.
FWIW providing sex for H will probably precipitate a change in his behavior but not until he stops fearing that each time may be his last. Do you have some agreement on frequency or who initiates? In my sitch W always decides when but agrees to a certain overall frequency -- that seems to work well for her.
I do suggest you keep up your generous behavior in all aspects for 8 - 10 weeks and see if you aren't closer to what you want. Make it about him for now without expectations and try a fake it till you make it approach.
If 10 weeks down the line things aren't better then reassess. At that point he will have more to lose and may have different motivations. I know that doing this again for 10 weeks is going to be extremely hard and frustrating but you seem to be in a good place for it right now so why not give it a shot? Assume the best from H's words and actions for now.
I would be very happy if you can get this to a better place because you deserve it.
Accuray
Married 18, Together 20, Now Divorced M: 48, W: 50, D: 18, S: 16, D: 12 Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 7/13/11 Start Reconcile: 8/15/11 Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 5/1/2014 (Divorced) In a New Relationship: 3/2015
If H likes to have sex, and you've established a pattern of withholding it from time to time, he's going to develop some anxiety in that area. When you start having sex with him again, you might expect to see some gratitude on his behalf, or a willingness to do something for you in return, etc. etc. When you don't see that change, you might get resentful and decide to withhold sex again.
What I'm saying is that as long as he believes you may yank the rug, you probably won't see ANY change. That's the tough thing. Until he believes it's "here to stay" and a part of your marriage, he's going to be anxious and worry that each time might be his last for a long time, so he'll be tempted to "try new things", and may generally make the experience angst ridden for you. The fear of having it go away again creates dysfunction on his behalf, and that prevents him from thinking of you and what you're doing for him -- does that make sense?
In terms of the "change" I was thinking of, I wasn't thinking of anything specific, just a general improvement in your marriage. You started having sex with him again for some reason -- there was some driving force behind that. I'm just saying that whatever results you had in mind may be very possible, but they may take quite a bit longer to show up than you would reasonably expect them to.
Accuray
Married 18, Together 20, Now Divorced M: 48, W: 50, D: 18, S: 16, D: 12 Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 7/13/11 Start Reconcile: 8/15/11 Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 5/1/2014 (Divorced) In a New Relationship: 3/2015
I get the withholding thing and his not knowing whether it's going to end again. That just seems to make him want it more often, sort of stocking up just in case. Honestly, though, if he tries to get "creative" again, I'll shut it down. Not in total, but I'm not going there again. Only had to learn that lesson once.
I was wondering if you had something in mind in regards to change, but it sounds like it was just the DB principle. I think the thing that has gotten me to this point is that I don't believe he ever will change. He's not doing what he's doing to be mean. I don't even think he's doing it consciously. It's just him. Maybe it stems from his narcissism, if that's an accurate diagnosis for him.
We had a few more incidents yesterday. It's just so frustrating for me because he does things to me that are hurtful or disrespectful or burdensome, then acts as if it's no big deal. I could honestly see him accidentally cutting off my finger with the saw, then saying, "Oh, sorry. Could you hand me the hammer, please?" I'm relating this a lot to Advina's post, and how her H might have felt with her perpetual half-full attitude and his never feeling heard (reading in a lot, I know.)
My frustration comes from trying to understand. I relate it to a comment you made in Adinva's post, about NEEDING to know what was going on (different issue, I know.) But I just feel like I could maneuver things better if I understood the motivation, the reasoning behind it, the "WHY."
One of the things he does is ask me what I want, then do something totally different. For example, completely hypothetical, he would ask me what I wanted to drink, and I would respond that I wanted an iced tea. He would go to the counter, look to see what he wanted, notice there were two frozen lemonade options, couldn't decide if he wanted regular or strawberry, land on getting one of each - one for him and one for "me," so then he could share mine with me and have both, meanwhile I don't get my iced tea. Clearly, he got what he did because HE wanted both, but he would tell you he got it for me because he thought I would like it, and I think a part of him actually believes it. I don't believe that will ever change about him, because he doesn't even recognize it as a problem because he's convinced himself he was doing "a good thing."
So what are my options there? I could just throw out my preferences, drink the sugary cr@p that gives me a brain freeze, finish feeling just as thirsty as when I started, miss out on the caffiene boost. But I did that for years and that just builds resentment. Or I could just always get my own drink because I can't trust him to get what I specifically asked for. That would work to get me the drink I wanted, but it would do nothing for our R. For me, anyway. I'm sure it would work for him. Then I'm back to thinking what's the point of being M'd if I can't depend upon him to do something as simple as getting the drink I asked for.
Bottomline, I just don't see how his getting more regular sex is going to change that. I can't think of anything that will change that. In fact, to some degree, my reinvesting in the R makes him more comfortable to take more liberties (do things "he" wants "for me.")
It sounds like when Homer Simpson gave Marge the bowling ball for her birthday that had "Homer" engraved on it.
CV, all I'll say is this with your hypothetical: I've observed a trend in my own behavior. I like to think like I've got it all figured out, and I like to think I've evaluated a situation from all angles. I think it's pride, and fear of looking silly. Therefore, I will sometimes write up scenarios from my sitch so that the reader can arrive at only one logical conclusion, because that's where I've lead them. It's obviously far less pleasant to admit my own role in things, and to take a risk of being embarrassed by presenting a scenario I haven't evaluated from every possible angle.
The iced tea example you give above is horrible, there is no way for you to win in that scenario, other than ruthlessly setting and enforcing boundaries -- "if you give me a drink I don't like, I will pour it on the ground in front of you and buy what I like". If we're talking about things as trivial as buying you a drink, however, that would be exhausting, you couldn't set that many boundaries, remember them, and remember to enforce them.
Are you sure it's *as bad* as you're presenting above? Is he really that thoughtless and callous? Are there ANY scenarios where he really does have your best interests at heart? I really hope it's not as bad as your example.
Accuray
Married 18, Together 20, Now Divorced M: 48, W: 50, D: 18, S: 16, D: 12 Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 7/13/11 Start Reconcile: 8/15/11 Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 5/1/2014 (Divorced) In a New Relationship: 3/2015
Accuray, I know exactly what you mean by presenting a scenario where the reader will arrive at a conclusion. I can do that very well if I want to, but that's not what I'm looking for. And honestly, in the hypothetical about the lemonade, I was trying to focus on the fact that he isn't intentionally being thoughtless and callous. He actually thinks he's being nice, or at least rationalizes/convinces himself that he is.
As for my leading the listener/reader, H and I have discussed specific issues in the past with couple friends, where H was able to present his perspective, and the guy/H said to my H, "What the hexx were you thinking??!" So I don't think I'm just twisting it to make me look good. I will also add that most of our counseling sessions were focused on H's behaviors because the counselor had an issue with it, too, in spite of H presenting his defenses. The counselor would work with H, he would say/commit to all the right things, and the counselor thought progress was made. It just didn't stick for more than about two days, if he really ever got it at all. Plus, if it isn't exactly the same thing, (ie. lemonade/tea vs. sandwich/burger) H can't transition. "It's not the same thing," he always says. So even if I set a boundary for a drink, he wouldn't be able to relate it to a sandwich. He would be completely blind-sided and accuse me of over-reacting. BTDT.
What you're saying about it being an overwhelming task is where I am right now. I find myself spending all my energy trying to intercept the infinite number of possibilities of things he might do. I feel like I'm having to watch a two-year-old. Even if I am completely consciously aware of the fact that he's not doing things to be mean or vindictive, I carry the result regardless. Like the lemonade vs. tea. This is only if I'm trying to fully engage. It's not a problem if I'm off doing my own thing, which is why I tend to do that so much, as opposed to trying to punish him. (He knows this, btw.)
There are times when he is courteous. In fact, in the hypothetical, he's being courteous when he offers to get me something to drink. I think everything falls apart when his selfish desires come into play. If there was only one drink he was interested in, or he didn't want a drink at all, then he would get my drink as I asked. But how to predict when there might be a conflict?
I don't know how to answer if it's "as bad" as my example portrayed. I thought it was a pretty calm example, actually. That sort of thing happens all the time. I could use the same scenario and substitute the lemonade/tea with real-life van or boat or step-kid sitches, but I just used a hypothetical to keep it simple. I guess all I can say is that it's bad enough for me to want to leave my M.
BTW, I used my analogy with him previously and he immediately denied that he's like that, appalled that I would even suggest that he would act that way. I referenced an example for him, and he said that it was a long time ago. So he went from completely denying it to acknowledging it but discounting it because my example was a long time ago. So I gave him a more current example, and he went into his rationalization of why he did it. Bottomline, it's just not "real" a problem for him. It's either not true, not current, or justifiable.
Convincing people that he's wrong and I'm not doesn't help my sitch. It means there's nothing I can do. Regardless of whether he's right or I am, I would prefer that people tell me what *I* can do. But I'll be honest and say that I am looking for some sort of payoff ultimately.
It's not an emotional investment on my part, anyway, not this time. I think of your sitch with your W. I'm not doing it for me, I'm doing it to take it off the table. Sorry, I know it's something you're not happy with in your sitch. My H doesn't seem to mind.