Thread #7 - What goes down, might come up.

[zig]

navyguy - i'm sorry you are in so much pain.

what may help you to move through to the other side of this, is to let go of your own feelings about this guy on FB. if you keep focusing on that, then you take away your focus completely from finding out what works.

If I have to bring up the R with this guy again, I will use starsky's exact words.

And it will be accompianied by D papers.

that's anger, resentment, and all the piled up feelings of hurt that you feel from her. those are the things you have to focus on removing from within yourself - they emanate from you and that's what she FEELS from you - your judgement about what she is doing or not doing, your constant reminders that she's messing up.

so she feels all that negative stuff from you. then is it any surprise that she looks away and towards something ELSE for more positive feedback?

work through your stuff on your own and remove it from the energy between you and focus on how to give her positive feedback so that she has a damn good reason for wanting to get it from you. your above statement would be the exact opposite of that

love breeds more love. how much love is there in that statement you made?

it's hard for all of us to set aside our deep feelings that are so understandably there, as dbmod said - it feels agonizing to acknowledge them and STILL have to rise above them in order to reach our goals

but look at it this way - that is exactly what we are wanting our WAS's to do - rise above their negative feelings for us and make things good again. if we can't do that - how on earth can we expect them to?

i hope you can turn the focus towards what really is worth turning the focus to - the rest will take care of itself

zig

[LITB]

To be fair to Navyguy, he has made a lot of changes and an immense amount of effort to make his M works. He has been at this a long time. His W has not followed his lead.

She has played the victim this entire time and continues to do so. She doesn't realize how fortunate she us to have such a great H.

The only thing Navyguy hasn't tried is what Starsky recommended. I agree with Starsky's advice. How is she going to stop and look in the mirror to realize that her misery is self-inflicted?

That being said, I respect whatever Navyguy decides. I know he is a great catch and any woman would be fortunate to have him as their H.

[greenblue90]

To use DB terms giving more love, and trying to be fun is just going down another cheese less tunnel.

It's true that many newbies go dark too quickly but Navy has been at this for 2 years. It will take her hitting rock bottom with her depression for her to snap out of it.

If you use Starsky's words she will most likely leave, and that's not necessarily bad. She escape goats Navy at every opportunity so she can avoid the painfulness of working on herself.

If she leaves she'll have no one else to blame.

Look I don't have any kids, but I don't think you two are exactly building a good environment for them. You don't want your kids thinking this is normal do you?

[~ kd ~]

So I'm just thinking about this a bit and how it relates to me and DB and... stuff...

I relate it to the reality that no one learns until they are ready. Then... the teacher appears... The lesson and teacher could manifest in many different forms.

If the only option seems to be using words, and we know that words don't change someone's mind... well, I wonder...

When I feel I must have words with my W to express my feelings to her, then I take a moment to consider my own lesson. In what way have I not detached, enough?

When I'm at a party and some guy is being rude and an idiot, I don't go over to him and punch him in the head.

I might feel better about it for the moment, but I doubt that it will cause him to become a more respectful person.

No, rather I emotionally detach from him as much as possible and carry on with my life.

I totally get that your W's behaviour is making you anxious, Navy. I really wonder if you are detached enough.

IIRC, I don't think you are out of options and I'm pretty sure that dbmod's suggestion is an option you have not yet tried. You may need to be more detached to do so, and in either case, if you were only able to choose between flowing with or resisting... further detachment might still be in order.

I see how dbmod's suggestion might also be relevant in my own sitch. I do not know if I am detached enough, although I feel I am. Where my sitch is different is that my main contact with my W is during pick up or drop off of my D9. It would take some deft work for me to get to a point of engagement with my W that I could even bring forward the idea of doing something with my W.

At least I think so... it's been over a year and a half since I've last brought up that idea and at that time, it didn't go over too well. For all I know, that's all my W is waiting for is for me to open up more to being with her.

[Navyguy]

Well, things have calmed down over the weekend. Getting off FB seems to be helping me. W and I have been getting along ok....both of us are still recovering from the drama though.

Not sure what my next step is. Talked to my mom and she told me that I need to come to grips with my marriage being over. I plan to discuss that with my IC.

Then I need to decide how I want to live....keep living like this and accepting my M being over, or going ahead with a D.

[Navyguy]

Kaffe...you make some good points and since reading dbmods post, I have been considering the idea that I never really detached. I think that goes hand in hand with what my mom told me...accept that the M is over. So I plan to work on that.

[JustStunned]

Navy, in various threads Starsky has posted about the Stockdale Paradox. I presume you are familiar with Admiral Stockdale and how he spent a good deal of the Vietnam War. I suggest there is value to you in what the Stockdale Paradox professes. I think this complements what you are already considering.

A variant of this was taught to me long ago. Once I pulled my head from my backside and began to confront my reality those lessons were invaluable to me.

[25yearsmlc]

i know if a bug walked by while i was telling my H something, i would IMMEDIATELY stop talking about it and focus on the bug.

also, if i were just becoming a "friend" on fb with someone, i would probably look at all their photos and "like" them as a way of being friendly. he may have ulterior motives but it could all be innocent.

In this day and age...

not sure what that^^ even means DLS...

The bug thing I totally relate to. I'm a nut when it comes to bugs and I DO drop all conversations to destroy or remove one--meaning to have H destroy or remove one...It's neurotic, I know. But it's way down my list of what I want to work on, if you KWIM.

as for the FB stuff, I have gone thru maybe 10 guy friend's and 20 girlfriends' pictures and clicked on them...why?

BECAUSE THEY'RE INTERESTING and I KNOW I WON"T "CHEAT" by clicking, so it doesn't even cross MY mind that there's something off about it.

Flirtatious comments are one thing but "liking" the FB photos? Big deal.

Navy, you have REALLY HUGE issues to work out w/your wife. She's NOT kind or loving and she's a miserable person to be around.

She is using you.

Don't fuel her negatives by focusing on the minutiae that this FB crap is...

it's NOT important enough at all and when you have the BIG stuff that you two have going on, no sex, no affection, NOT wanting to work on the marriage

THAT is where you need to focus. This other stuff is like ink that a squid emits to get away.

Don't let the ink get in your eye and lose sight of what really matters here. Pick those battles wisely,

[25yearsmlc]

Well, things have gotten really rough again.

I feel like I did when W was with the kids in CO. Sick to my stomach.

This guy continues to Facebook stalk W. He "likes" every single thing she posts...even inside jokes that there's no way he knows about.

I confronted W on this 2 nights ago. I told her it is making me uncomfortable. This is a single guy who knows our marriage is on the rocks and is pursuing her. She says she has no intent of being anything more than friends with him and that he is cool and good to talk to. (how many times have I seen that on these boards?!?!??!!)

Here's our texting transcript from yesterday:

W started by accusing me of logging in to her FB account.

M: I have never been on your FB account...I swear on my life and everything important to me.  If someone else logged in, it wasn't me.  I believe you about this guy....I just think he has intentions to be more than friends and that makes me uncomfortable and threatened....but I know there's nothing I can do about that except tell you how it is making me feel, and that is what I did.

W: Well, I'm sorry you feel threatened. I have been trying really hard to keep you from feeling that way because I want you to be happy. It just feels like I afford you more respect and space than you have granted me. Messenger isn't working because I deactivated my account. I'm tired of being hassled about Facebook. If I have to miss out on my friends pictures and sharing in their lives to maintain some sanity with you than so be it. I'm sick and tired of drama. I can't handle anymore.

Then W deactivated her FB account. She had it back up about 2 hours later, after the rest of this chat.

M: I'm tired of drama too, and please trust me, I'm not trying to create it.  I was sitting at my desk at work shaking yesterday because of what I could see.  And thats why i got home early yesterday...my boss saw me and told me i needed to get out of here.  I realize me shaking seems like an overreaction and I know it was because if my insecurities with our situation, but what I saw was a guy who i was pretty sure knew our situation going after you, and that bothered me.  I wasn't seeking out any drama or trying to pick a fight...what I saw was upsetting me and I wanted to talk to you about it. I really do appreciate you wanting me to be happy, and I want the same for you.  There is no ill intent or alterior motive to my actions.  As I said last night, all I am trying to do is be a husband that is worth coming back to.  I know I have no control over whether you will ever want to do that or not.  Sometimes I find a glimmer of hope or a reason to think that might happen someday.  I know that is contrary to you having told me "we're done" and that you don't want to be married anymore.  I know it feels like an impossible situation for you.  On one hand, you don't want to be married and don't want to do anything that would make me feel otherwise, but on the other, we are still married and still living together and we have to co-exist somehow and things are just going to happen that give me hope that we can make things work.  I know you want me to give up on that, so you can be nice to me and not worry about how I'm interpreting everything you say or do.  I don't know if I'll ever be able to completely give up...even if we get divorced.  As i said, I think we have a nearly impossible problem here and I know the solution but for whatever reason (love, commitment, our kids, feeling that I owe you, to name a few) I refuse to accept that solution.  I don't know what can change that feeling inside me...and given what we've been through, I'm not sure that it will ever change. I think you'd agree that our marriage has been a struggle from almost the very beginning.   And we've been through so much more stress than most people go through in the beginning of their marriage....and I wasn't expecting that and obviously did not handle things even remotely close to the "right" way.   I failed in the worst possible way at the worst possible time. And for that I am and always will be truly sorry.  I do my best to control my feelings and not bring up things that will cause drama or cause you pain.  But there are times when I get overwhelmed by how I am feeling about something, and I don't think I can or necessarily should have to totally suppress those feelings.  Sometimes I am probably getting more spun up than I should about certain things.  I don't know.  But that's a part of me that I've worked on and don't think I can change entirely.  I need to be able to talk to people about things that are bothering me...otherwise they will consume me and I get to where I am no use to you, the kids, my work, and myself.

W: It kills me that you are attacking my friendships. My friends are the ones who helped me make it this far. I would have lost my mind a long time ago without them. This feels like another way to control me. Guy and Ohio Bff are friends that I feel close to. They are both kind genuine people who have been through the wringer themselves. They understand my feelings and manage to lift me up, not treat me like [censored]. They look out for me and just want me to be happy. Ohio BFF has always managed to make me laugh through the millions of tears I have shed and gives me the strength to go on. Guy, I have found, is the same as Ohio BFF. I have not gone crying to him, but during some bad days he managed to make me laugh and feel like life is not so bad. By attacking my relationships with those who are kind to me, you lower my view of you and make me that much happier to have them in my life. Your insecurities have been the wedge between us all these years...not my friends. While I do my best to avoid hurting you, it feels you manage new ways to hurt me. That's why I refuse to work on things with you. Nobody has hurt me as much as you have and it has never stopped. I would love to hang out with Guy. It would be great to get together with someone who understands me and doesnt hurt me. I am not looking for a relationship with him or anyone. I especially don't want to deal with the drama that would create nor has it crossed my mind. Relationships suck and im not anxious to jump into another one. I don't want to cut someone genuine out of my life that you think is interested in me and you are threatened by it. I have a say in my life. 

M: I am not attacking your friendships.  I understand and respect your need to have a life outside our home and marriage. What I said last night about Ohio BFF is that I feel that you have a bond with her that I wish we had with each other.  And that is hard for me to see and I am jealous of it at times.  I wish we could share things with each other.   I also said that i think she is a great friend and that i am glad she was there for you. I am not denying that I am insecure about Guy.  He knows our marriage is on the rocks and he is pursuing you, and i am not comfortable with that.  I understand he's a nice guy and that he's friendly and laid back and makes you feel better when you talk to him.  But you've met this guy twice, and his actions on FB clearly show his intentions.  It's not right for a guy to go through every picture on a married woman's page and like a bunch of them and even comment on pictures of her kids that he's never met.  I don't think you'd find a man anywhere that thinks what he is doing is ok. Even a man in an extremely healthy marriage would have issues with his actions.

I am not trying to hurt you, and I never have tried to.  Since I got back from Afghanistan, It seems like every time I hurt you it is when I am trying to talk to you about how I feel about something.  You've said it many times....we have reversed roles.  And I think the same exact thing is happening when I talk to you today as when you talked to me after D6 was born.  I didn't really listen to what you were saying, I got defensive, made you feel bad and wrong about your feelings, you'd feel guilty that you even brought it up and give in, I felt like the problem was solved, and you had to bury the problem again until you again reached a boiling point. Trust me, I now understand completely how it feels to be on your side when that happens. When I talk to you about something, it is a big deal for me, just like it used to be for you.  I don't take it lightly and I think hard and long about it before I do.  I am caring and genuine when I talk to you about things. The last thing I ever want to do is to hurt you, and I hope you know that. I know there has been a lot of drama lately and I wish more than anything that we weren't having to go through this...but the reason is there have been things (drinking, Guy) that I felt strongly enough about that i couldn't keep them inside.

I think I have said all I need to say about those things at this point. I am just as tired of the drama as you are and I am sorry for my contribution to it.  I have put in writing here how I feel and I will not bring them up again.

W did not reply.

When I got home from work, W was friendly. Not really what I expected.

Last night W was doing her usual sitting on the deck thing. I was exhausted from the night before. This morning I wake up to see 2 FB posts from W, one of which this guy could not have a clue what she was talking about. He liked both posts. Obviously W has not told him to back off.

I hate this. I am letting it eat me up. IC starts again this week. I think I am going to try to work on coming to grips that my M is over, and how to move on. That is what I need. I will not be with someone that hurts me like this.

ALL this^^^ trash is exactly what I meant. Forget the FB stuff!!!!

NOW SHE THINKS THAT'S AN ISSUE--like you are so controllig and jealous--OMG

the real issue is she wants out of the marriage- in every way but financial.


You need to be free of this relationship. Do you see that?

The marriage as it is is NOT worth saving...I rarely say that but Good grief...enough already.

Navy I worry that you really need more IC than you are getting.

Putting up with this horror of a m and all her depression and fightiong and blaming you

BUT THEN targetting the Facebook garbage is symptomatic of you wanting to point at SOMETHING ---ANYTHING

but the reality is your w checked out 3 years ago and you let her.

THAT IS THE ISSUE/PROBLEM and the rest of this is just a result...


Sorry but that's just what is.

[25yearsmlc]

Agree guys. 1st step to stopping the neediness was turning off my FB account. That is done. That has been the trigger of all my insecurities and it is removed. As of now, all I truly know is that this guy is FB stalking W.

The reason I backtrack is out of worry for our kids. No doubt about that...probably something to bring up with IC.

I don't think the reason you backSLIDE is out of worry for the kids. Or at least it's not the main reason.

You admit you have only been in r's with women who don't treat you well, correct? And you have a terrifying fear of being alone or not married to this cruel cold miserable woman.

if you are half the man I think you are, you ought to be running to the L's office.(God help me for saying that but THIS MARRIAGE is a real bummer for a very nice sounding guy...IDK- maybe you're a great liar or ugly as sin but I don't think so...) You are just afraid and it's paralyzed you for 3 years now.


If I have to bring up the R with this guy again, I will use starsky's exact words.

And it will be accompianied by D papers.

I don't think OM is important enough to bring up but you know how I feel. I think if there's anything beyond an hour of REAL THOUGHT that goes into it, I'd be surprised.

Why? Maybe your w is hot and gorgeous, and maybe when she's NOT around you, she's a fun partying friendly happy active woman...but ....really?


So she has no skills that pay well AND has 2 small kids. Um, you think she's that great a catch for a younger man to have a real r with?

sorry, I don't see it..

You are going to be fine, Navy. Really & truly. I don't disagree w/Starsky's advice so much as think OM's not worth it. At this time neither is your w. She is not a good partner for you Navy.

No more wordy letters, please. She probably felt it was an "ordeal" or "chore" to read through. Sorry but it's just way way way too long.

I skimmed it twice before I FORCED myself to read it all. Sorry, but that says something.

I cannot wait for you to get on the other side of this lake b/c you are going to be a man only a fool would leave

if you keep your strength up...it's like working out. Being a strong man.

make sense?
.