I'm a new person

[NLW]

Vero,
Just wanted to let you know that, like you and Busting, I am torn about the same basic issue.

H comes over every day and we seem to get along fine as a happy family.

And yet, he always leaves and shows no signs of coming out of his crisis (only 10 months though).
And he has told me not to have hope.

My gut says, and what I understand from DR and DB coaches is, that I am keeping the road home paved and smooth and showing him my changes and how M would be a very different proposition from this day forward.

OTOH, he is cake-eating, I am in denial about him really leaving us, and maybe going NC would be better for me and the kids.

All I do know is, I still want him around and so do the kids.

So, all in all, I have no help or advice to offer you, other than to say I really GET you - and hope that knowing others are going through the same is some sort of solace.

Best, NLW

[bustorama]

My gut says, and what I understand from DR and DB coaches is, that I am keeping the road home paved and smooth and showing him my changes and how M would be a very different proposition from this day forward.

This is not what DR/DB says. DR/DB says that if the spouses are physically separated and the WAS is not saying they are interested in working on things, that the LBS should adopt the LRT technique, which is giving the appearance of moving on, if not actually moving on.

[bustorama]

From the official blog:

It’s imperative that you begin doing the last-resort technique immediately if:[/q]

Your spouse has said to you in no uncertain terms that s/he wants to get a divorce and it appears as if s/he really means it. It wasn’t just said in the heat of battle.
[b] You and your spouse are separated physically.
You and your spouse still live together but have very little to do with each other. You may be sleeping in separate rooms, have virtually no communication, and little or no sexual contact.
Your spouse has filed for divorce

Step 1 – Stop the Chase

...you need to stop doing anything that your spouse might look at as pursuing behavior.

Step 2 – Get a Life

...you’d better pick yourself up by the bootstraps and get yourself together! You need to act as if you are moving on with your life. Otherwise, you don’t stand a fighting chance.

....

Focus on making yourself a better person. If you’ve stopped going to church or synagogue, go back. If you’ve been wanting to take a new class, go for it. Think about some old friends you haven’t contacted in a while. Pick up the phone and connect. Go visit a family member. Watch a sunset. Read poetry. Count leaves. Play golf. Go fishing. Do something that will put you back in touch with you, not just because your spouse might like you more if you do, but because it’s important to feel centered and love yourself. You deserve it. I know you do.

[NLW]

Hey guys, not to hijack - but I think this is the issue that vero was talking about.

I didn't express myself too clearly (or I am completely deluding myself) but I think it is possible to do LRT without going NC.

The key is one's POV/intentional state, as I see it.

That is, if you are not trying to do things to get H back, if you are trying to live your changes for you and your kids, if you have accepted that you need to move on with your life, if you are not pursuing H, if you GAL, then is it necessary to cut off the sort of daily contact that some H's seem to desire - when there are kids involved?

Some of them seem very much to want to remain in contact with the family unit.

If the LBS decides to 'teach them a lesson' about what wanting a D will mean, telling them not to come around anymore, isn't this the non-detached way to go - as much as trying to get them to come around in order to 'win them back'?

Of course if the LBS/kids don't want this sort of contact, it's a different thing.
But if it's an OK experience for everyone and keeps the road home paved??

IDK, I still see it as a dilemma, though. I could just be deluding myself. Maybe it is only when LBS makes it very clear that they want nothing to do with spouse/want to D too, that there is any chance of R.

From what I can read about DB coaches' suggestions, however, being nice (and yet detached) and giving H opportunities to see the family unit operating in its new mode as a warm and non-threatening environment seems like a reasonable thing to do.

But maybe it just promotes cake eating.

Over to you.

[bustorama]

but I think it is possible to do LRT without going NC.

Definitely.

The key is one's POV/intentional state, as I see it.

Yep.

That is, if you are not trying to do things to get H back, if you are trying to live your changes for you and your kids, if you have accepted that you need to move on with your life, if you are not pursuing H, if you GAL, then is it necessary to cut off the sort of daily contact that some H's seem to desire - when there are kids involved?

Before we get to the last part (H's behavior), let's tackle the first part:

V IS doing things in hope that H will come back. Of doing things with EXPECTATION/HOPE/GOAL that he will stay and being drained when he does not.

V is STILL hoping that H will come back without OW.

V is not clearly NOT detached from the situation because she is experiencing exasperation, emotional fatigue and INCREASING RESENTMENT from the circumstances, from the fact that she is allowing her H to cross her boundaries repeatedly (and that she is crossing her own boundaries).

The epitome of cake eating.

Here are V's quotes from earlier in the thread relevant to the above 3 issues.

However I can't stomach another 6mos like this or 4 or 2!

On the plus side, we are a lot closer than before. Every month we are closer BUT he's still in contact with OW and that's too much for me!

Before he left my place tonite he said, ok I'll see you guys in the morning. I had told him this morning he wasn't going to come tomorrow morning anymore. I didn't say anything. UGH! I don't initiate break-ups cuz I have abandonment issues. and this is a great example. HELP!

THIS is the person I would want to be with (minus OW). He appreciates me and values my input....BUT the presence of OW is getting on my last f-- nerve. KWIM?

H came over this morning. Early (6:45am). I can tell how much he LOVES his morning visits....This (con't to DB) is harder now than when I started.

But every night, after he drops off S4 and tucks kids in bed, he leaves. and we're a family of 3 again.

I'm emotionally drained but something in me keeps going and I wish it wouldn't. I wish I could just sever the ties and continue my life without him.

Seriously?? You have f-- benefited from me having patience and hope. It's BECAUSE I have/had patience and hope that you come and go as you f-- please. It's BECAUSE I had patience and hope that I haven't gotten an atty involved. It's BECAUSE I had patience and hope that I don't physically detach!

So don't f-- come to me and tell me as if you're wiping your hands clean of my frustrations!

This is not at all about teaching them a lesson. This is about respecting yourself and your own boundaries of how you want and deserve to be treated in a relationship.

[NLW]

Busto, I take your point.

My own experience with this sort of behaviour from H was that, in the beginning, I had too many expectations with it. After a while, however, I could see that it wasn't a sign of any impending 'turn-around' on his behalf.

I had my time-frame all wrong, and kept thinking there was something I could DO/SHOW him to change his mind.

Once I started to get it and came to accept that there was nothing I could do except work on myself and try to move on, I wasn't so wrecked by his 'incongruous' behaviour (of wanting to be in the home every day to 'touch-base').

My H is a classic MLC motivated by depression so I eventually figured it's not as incongruous as it seems that he needs this sort of contact to survive.

I feel for him and I want to show him unconditional love as the father of my children.
So I accept his desire to be with us each day and resist any attempts to control him.
It is what it is, however. No expectations these days on my part.

I guess Vero may be working through a similar process. But the nagging thought that one is 'doing the wrong thing', DB-wise, in letting H's eat cake is a real pressure.

I'm glad we've had the chance to air the issue a bit. The thought that I'm doing completely the wrong thing has had me worried for a while.

[2chiquitos]

Wow! That was great NLW n Busto! There was a lot of useful info on your feedback!

Like NLW, my DB coach told me to continue with the frequent visits; however she did say that if I didn't see any changes by now that I should do LRT.

My first goal is to take pictures of my house to list it for rent. I am not setting a specific time frame since I don't want to push myself. I want to do it at my pace. This is VERY hard. I reminded myself that I have moved numerous times and one learns to adjust to the new home.

Please pray for me.

Ques. What's NC and POV?

[unbidden]

NC = no contact and POV, I think, is point of view.

[BklynMom]

Busto really great - really clear post. It helped a lot

[2chiquitos]

So I did something big. Maybe not big for others but for me it was big.
I took pix of the house to post as a rental. All I did was take pix and all the while I was imagining myself moving out and living somewhere else. Getting myself comfortable with the idea.

Plus side, my kids are small and not entirely attached to the house or neighbors.

Next step, actually posting the house...