Going around in circles

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Thanks Angel, we certainly do have some parallels, I posted a summary too.

We started as friends, and our R developed along the way until we got married. No goo-goo eyes for us, no mushy stuff.

You didn't have goo-goo eyes either? I was definitely the romantic between the two of us, and I did feel "in love". I think I knew at the time she didn't feel as strongly but I ignored that.

Ultimately, he told me that he could not leave – he could not throw away our life together, and he could not hurt our D. Problem was, he did not feel anything for me. He did not know how we could exist that way. He told me that he feels he made a mistake in us getting married, that he married his best friend and that our foundation was not strong enough.

That must be very painful to hear. My W has not gone that far, she says that we are incompatible, it's more a "grown apart" argument than it was a mistake in the first place, although maybe she feels that way too. I don't think she's completely honest with me about what she thinks, I think it would be better if she were.

WE decided to go to Retrouvaille. It was a turning point, and I thought that things would be good after that. We started to ML again, and he said that he wanted to make the decision to love and commit to our M.

I don't think I could ever get her there -- in your opinion is it worth extraordinary effort to make it happen? It sounds like to helped in the moment, but that it didn't have a long-lasting impact.

However, that’s when I started feeling the same way as you are now. Although my H said he was determined to stay, he did not seem to be doing the work. I pushed, and he withdrew. He felt he was back, but I did not.

That's a little different, W doesn't feel there is any work to be done. She claims to be happy, and just wants to be accepted as is, with no expectations of anything.

We went through tough times all over again, more because he felt that instead of moving forward, we were backsliding, and that I was expecting that he become what he was not all over again, just like pre-bomb. That was what pushed him away in the first place – his perception of me being unhappy in the marriage.

You were unhappy though, right? It wasn't just his perception. Although you were unhappy, that didn't mean you wanted a divorce, you wanted him to work with you on it.

The last coach I spoke to said that it's a basic project management problem, if you're not working toward then same goal, then you can never reach it together. He said that W is in the "love me unconditionally, accept me for who I am, and be responsible for your own needs" camp, whereas I am in the "let's have a passionate, intimate marriage, let's work together to meet each others' needs, including changing whatever we need to change" camp. Those are two different philosophies of marriage, and unless those are reconciled, we'll be spinning our wheels.

The coach also said that W's view on this is flawed, and that she doesn't see the potential. He said that when you get married, you grant your spouse the exclusive right to meet some of your needs, including sex, affection, intimate conversation, etc. If they won't provide those things for you, you can't take care of that elsewhere and still remain true to your vows, so they're putting you in a no-win situation. He also said that improving the marriage is squarely in the reluctant spouse's best interest -- their happiness will ALSO be enhanced if you make things better, not just yours. If it looks like a tradeoff to them, they're not looking at it the right way.

Another interesting analogy he used: he said that pretend you and your spouse are athletes, but whatever you do impacts your spouse's body, and whatever he does impacts yours. If you eat really well, exercise, etc., it makes his body feel great. If he eats junk food and lays on the couch, it makes your body feel badly. He said that marriage is like this in many ways. The fact that he makes you feel badly makes you work extra hard to get back into shape, but the whole time that's just making him feel better and better, so he doesn't see the downside of his diet and lack of exercise, so he keeps doing what he's doing and you feel worse and worse. Marriage is very symbiotic in that way.

Now from your husband's perspective, he probably views you as insatiable, that nothing he does will be enough, that he will always fall short, that if he responds to one request, another will just follow it and he'll never get to the end of it. That makes someone feel very trapped and "unsafe", because they can never succeed.

The only suggestion I've gotten for how to deal with this is that you need to convince your spouse to try, and you need to find some little thing that doesn't represent a sacrifice for him, but would provide total satisfaction for you. If you can find that one little behavior change, you'll get a taste of success and find something to build on -- I haven't found that yet.

The rest of the story you will see here in piecing….. and this is where you will see my effort at self evaluaton, all this discussions about boundaries, tough love, etc. which I feel have merit but which I am not ready to implement as I still see changes happening in our sitch without me having to stir the pot.

Yes, I don't really think it's an issue of tough love and boundaries, because our spouses are not being willfully disrespectful or taking advantage of us. We're caught in a cycle where our spouse feels oppressed by the weight of our unmet expectations. The oppression inhibits any action on their behalf, which makes our situation feel even worse to us, we walk around with critical needs unmet. We can't hide this, and the fact that our spouse sees it makes them feel like a failure and keeps us trapped. I don't see how either boundaries or tough love are an answer to that.

I think really it comes down to motivation -- our spouses need to be motivated to "want to work". That motivation either comes from feeling in love with us, or from seeing some tangible way forward where their own situation is improved. I don't think either boundaries or tough love will provide that motivation. Personally I'm focusing on getting to the root of W's complex relationship needs and trying to be the best provider in meeting them.

I feel like my H is an emotionally unavailable person. Even with his family and friends. he knows this and even during our Retrouvaille sessions expressed his frustration at his being unable to convey his feelings in words.

Same thing with my W, when we started piecing I was writing her long e-mails that I'd spend half an hour on. She'd send me back two sentences and say that it took her an hour when she replied at all. I do question if there is really such a thing as an emotionally unavailable person however, I think they just need a certain set of conditions to draw them out, and our personality doesn't naturally provide for that.

However, the EA brought out a side of him that was really surprising. I snooped and read his emails to her, and his journal, was so shocked with how he was able to express his emotions to her, especially in his musings. I think t was that part that hurt a lot

Yes! Same thing, so many assumptions I had about what W was and was not capable of were violated by reading her affair correspondence -- I was like "who is this person?" I want that affection! I can't have it though, she can't provide that to me (at least not yet). MC told me that I should not believe for a minute that W was capable of sustaining what she was putting out there in the A, he said that it's a fantasy-land and none of the usual rules apply.

I do think that seeing the affection, emotion, openness and honesty, and the willingness to connect with OM in a way she never would with me will haunt me forever in this relationship, it's so painful to see that the potential is there, locked away, and that you have no means to tap into it despite your best efforts, so very very painful. It feels like the worst kind of failure, because I would LOVE for her to live with that kind of happiness forever.

Thats it for now, hope it wasn't too boring!

Not boring at all, you're a kindred soul.

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