This is not looking good! (Long post...)

[mab1]

I have sent a reply but it doesn't seem to have made it past the mods. Thanks footer the great advice. I am trying hard to follow it but it is really hard. I shoe r to her on Thursday regarding some mail which had arrived and she seems to be having some serious issues. She had been unable to work, Niue thinks people are avoiding her, and knows she is acting strangely. Has gone from wanting to be a super to seriously planning to withdraw from the world to live in a cottage with cats in 4 days. She is going to see an IC (although doesn't know when) but won't see an MC with me. She is worried that she is always trying to please everyone and is unable to be herself. As a result she is challenging herself to be single irrespective of my feelings. She also admitted that she had done something similar when she found out her last boyfriend was thinking of proposing. This time round it is the issue if children which had triggered it. I did point out we had been married and this was quite different which she took well. She now doesn't want to sell the house but now wants to live on her own to find her individuality. She is still not talking about divorce either. Again, she'd got it out we were chatting and then even flirting a little. I don't understand her at all and am really struggling to know what to do.

[mab1]

Oh yes, she is coming here in Sunday to collect the mail and is going to ring me beforehand. Should I be in and happy, just out or in and distant?

[mab1]

Dear mods. This is now my fourth message that I've tried to post to this thread please but let it through I need help and I think I may have just forced things to a head!

My wife came round to pick up her mail and we were chatting about the garden, friends, how she enjoyed teaching and all the regrets she had about school and uni. It was all quite pleasant for about half an hour. Then she started talking about the house and how we probably shouldn't sell it, how she'd found a flat etc etc. I pointed out we may have to change some insurance stuff if she was living elsewhere and things went very quickly downhill from there.

All the 180 stuff out of the window, we were talking about us! It did not go well. I still can't change, she is too far gone, she doesn't think she loves me anymore (but still isn't 100%, she may have made a mistake). By walking out she showed she had made her decision. She's lonely, on the edge of a nervous breakdown but still thinks it's the right thing to do. She doesn't miss me, I have undermined her, kept her from her friends, I did loads wrong during the marriage (some of which were true and I massively regret them. Things like not congratulating her properly when she got her grant). I was always unhappy because of work and she was a go getter and she didn't think I could cope with that. She wants to be alone because she is always pleasing others and thinks it isn't healthy.
She did slip at one point and said that my behaviour had forced her to someone, I mean something else (EA confirmation? Possibly).

She then went back to the night she said we should separate and found more things I said which I shouldn't have (eg belittled her current job), but I've already apologised numerous time for that evening so this time I stood up for myself a bit more. I pointed out that if she could change why can't I? That I regretted loads but that I wanted to move forward and prove myself in future. And then I said that the problem was that I didn't know how to show her. I said I didn't feel I could keep going the way were were for long, that I didn't want to stay here but if there was a even a 1% chance of saving our marriage I would do it. That I didn't want to convince her with words but show her with actions but couldn't see a way to do it, but I was desperately trying to save our marriage. Basically, I took the 180 rules and ignored most of them!

So when she asked me what I wanted to do I asked her to come to councilling for a few sessions. By this point she was really angry (presumably because I had shown some backbone) but agreed to come. Now I'm assuming if she does come it will only be to convince herself that she is right. Her parting words were along the line of by asking her to agree to councilling I was enforcing my will over hers and thereby proving I didn't respect her opinions and that I was forcing her into her pleasing everyone behaviours again.

The worst thing was she was just looking at me like she hated me! She grabbed her mail, got straight in her car and just said email me the time to meet. At this point I did cave a bit and said if she was so convinced then she didn't need to go but she just repeated email me and then sped off without a second look.

Help!?!

[dbmod]

mab-

I apologize. It is not your posts. We try to approve posts within 24-48 hours, but it isn't always possible. Hang in there, moderation doesn't last forever.

[labug]

Have you read the DR book, I glanced thru your thread and didn't see it mentioned. I apologize if I missed it.

I did notice that Accuray wrote you a very good post with good advice. You had no response to it. Read that and read it again. This is not easy but it is pretty simple.

Your wife wants space and time away from you. Give that to her.

You are pushing her, she is pushing back. Leave her be and work on you.

What are your GAL activities?

What is your plan for working on those things that your wife had complaints about?

Again, go back and read Accuray's post to you-you won't get any better advice.

[Accuray]

Thanks Labug! Mab1, you recognize that you're backsliding -- that's good! It takes a lot of strength to have faith in DB because it is counter-intuitive. You will make mistakes and that's ok, try to minimize them, and try very hard not to repeat them. When it happens, dust yourself off and get back on the horse.

When your W leaves everything in you says that you should chase her, get on bended knee and profess your love with everything you have. Your heart keeps telling you to do that kind of thing, but it doesn't work. It's like your W is behind a locked bank vault door and you're trying everything to get in there without the combination. Eventually you're just beating your fists on a steel door -- it just doesn't work.

You can't mindread what's going on with her, forget about hormones, birth control pills, cat lady, etc. etc. It's all a red herring. She was upset and dissatisfied for a long time, you CANNOT repair that quickly, even if you become the world's best super-husband over night. Even that is not good enough.

I agree with your suspicion that she got involved in an EA. If that's over, she's grieving it, she's in withdrawal, and she will be depressed and erratic. This is not the time for you to try to wedge yourself back into her life, she'll take out all her anger on you. Leave her be for now, she's very confused, and you cannot show her the way, she must find it herself. You have to have faith that you can make the changes in yourself that make YOU a good catch.

You need space for her, and time and repetition for you, there is no short cut. There is nothing you're going to say to convince her to do anything differently right now. Your advice and requests are not wanted! I know that is painful to hear, but it's true! Back WAY off, give her MORE space than she wants.

You saw what happened when you left her alone, she got scared and lonely and she reached out to you. That's the type of trend you want to foster. When she reaches out, be nice, be friendly, but resist EVERY temptation to say anything about the fact that this was her choice, that she can come home if she wants, that she put herself in this position, etc. etc. etc. Say nothing of the sort. Limit yourself to what you would tell a co-worker who you only kind of know. If someone like that called you all upset, you'd be polite and supportive, and you'd probably end the conversation first right? That's your plan right now. Apply a "friendly coworker" standard and no more.

Also, do NOT divulge DB strategy to your W. Don't talk about 180's, or any DB concepts. You don't want her to think you're running some kind of program on her. Don't talk about your "changes", don't talk about your effort, don't talk about at all. If you carry it out with actions, she will notice. Do NOT point it out to her, that will set you WAY back because it makes it seem like an act versus a permanent change and is therefore not credible.

I'm going to give you a radical suggestion, do NOT pursue MC right now. Don't send her that e-mail. Don't follow up on that suggestion at all. Just let it drop.

I suggest this for three reasons:

1) Doing MC with her right now is NOT giving her space. It's prying open her hood and messing around in an area where she doesn't want you right now.

2) Doing MC will force you to divulge how you're feeling, and she will RESENT you for that. See my prior post about resentment. YOU MUST RESIST ANYTHING THAT WILL ADD TO HER RESENTMENT. When you have a WAW, they need to WONDER what you're up to. You need to keep your cards close to the vest -- do NOT talk about what you're thinking and how you're feeling at all. MC will force you to show your cards and that will NOT help you right now. Later yes, not now.

3) Your suspicion is 100% correct -- 90% of the time, one spouse comes to MC unwillingly. That spouse is coming for one or more of the following 3 reasons (a) to help you find peace with the fact that they're leaving, (b) to have the MC take their side and show you how wrong you are, and/or (c) to work with the MC to try to "fix" you, because you are the one who is broken. For MC to succeed, both partners have to come to the table willing to admit their own issues, and willing to do some work to make things better. If only one spouse is willing, I believe MC generally does more harm than good.

I'm going to end here with a quote from "Love Must Be Tough" by Dobson, you may find this helpful in terms of "how to be" right now:

"[You must adopt] an entire change of attitude. Instead of begging, pleading, wringing your hands...you as the vulnerable partner must appear strangely calm and assured. The key word is confidence, and it is of maximum importance. Your manner should say, 'I believe in me, I am not afraid. I can cope, regardless of the outcome. I know something I'm not talking about. I've had my day of sorrow, and I'm through crying..."

"Not that you should say these things with words, or course. In fact, the less said about your frame of mind, the better. It's your private business. One of the great errors made by the vulnerable lover when things begin to deteriorate is to talk too much. His secure partner is noncommunicative, evasive, deceptive, and mysterious. She will not sit down and explain her inner feelings to the one who desperately needs that information."

"I'm recommending that you, the one who has sought to hold the marriage together, now choose your words more carefully too. It is as though you and your mate have been involved in a table game with her hiding her cards and you permitting yours to be seen. This has given the independent partner more information than she should have had, especially about the pain you are experiencing. It is time to be more discreet. No more should you reveal your every thought and plan."

"It is important during this time of crisis not to do predictable things. Having lived with you for years, your partner has you analyzed to a tee. She knows what bugs you, what makes you laugh, and what makes you cry. She has memorized all your little 'prerecorded' phrases that sprinkle your conversation. My advice is that you change these tapes. Don't offer suggestions when you would typically do so. Don't be predictable!"

"Your purpose, you see, is to convince this woman that events are swirling out of control and may take her in directions she has not anticipated. The old rules don't apply. And why is this new mystery advantageous? Because one of the reasons your lover has lost interest in the relationship is that the challenge is gone. It's become so monotonous and routine. Hence, you would be wise to turn the whole thing upside down."

Finally:

"An interesting thing happens when this kind of quiet confidence suddenly replaces tears and self-pity. Curiousity infects the aloof party, and she begins to probe for details. For the first time in months, perhaps, she's coming your way. She's saying 'You seem different tonight,' and 'I hope you're beginning to get over our problems'. She's baiting you to find out what's going on inside. It is uncomfortable for her to observe that changes are occurring which she neither controls nor understands. Tell her nothing. She *needs* to wonder."

It goes on to say that despite your partner's stoic appearance, she will be wrestling with feelings of guilt and self-doubt. There is still a tiny spark for you there, and you have to give it space to kick up into a flame versus smothering it and snuffing it out.

Hope that helps

Accuray

[mab1]

Thanks everyone,
Gal activities have included playing golf, learning to sail, lots of time in the gym (lost maybe 40lbs), not drinking, bought new clothes, new haircut, arranging time in a flight simulator, gardening (which I don't really like but needs doing), got myself an MC (who is IC'ing) and an IC and going to gigs. The hardest thing is knowing I am doing them to fill space left by her. I still feel a total wreck and am really lonely.
The worst thing is when she says she doesn't miss me and even despite her unhappiness she thinks she is doing the right thing. She has completely rewritten history so I caused every problem between us. I certainly want the man I wanted to be or that she deserved a lot of the time.
The MC question has made me struggle. She said she'd go, but when I thought about it her breakdown comment scared me so much I rang back and told get not to worry about it. However, her comments about not missing me are so scary that I'm desperate to try it just to try something. I just can't decide. If I leave it am I showing strength or giving up? If I pursue it am I doing more harm than good? I've had advice to follow both sides with the most appealing being to tell her the time of the appointment and then go dark. Its on Monday though so not really that much time for her to stop being angry. I'm so scared that she'll find someone else, she is doing a brilliant 180 on me which is leaving me floundering.

[bustingout]

Accuracy. I have no words to express how awesome you are.

I am saving that post.

Mab1 you have been given golden advice. Read, re read and read again. Become this advice.

[scaredsilly]

accuray, i'm an continually amazed at the time and effort you put forth for us on here. your post are lengthly and caring. you are a treasure.

mab1, every question you're asking yourself have been questions we have all asked.

right now, there's nothing you can do but FOLLOW ACCURAY'S ADVICE TO THE LETTER.

in the beginning, our WAS's are the best damn DBer's in the whole friggin' world! but that is when you need to pull back and let them figure things out.

they will say they don't miss you, they will rewrite history, they will go dark.

you will be afraid that they will find someone new. you will be afraid that they don't know how much you care and how much you are willing to change. you will be afraid that if you don't tell them x,y,z, that things will keep heading towards D when you could have stopped it.

you aren't in control of her. you are only in control of yourself now. take this time to focus on yourself and make yourself a better person. you will be surprised at how much better you feel about your sitch when you feel better about yourself.

i know you're scared. everyone on here is, to one degree or another. give it time, time, time. follow accuray's advice. he really knows what he's talking about and your sitch is not so unique.

good luck and keep the faith!

[Accuray]

Thanks Bustingout! That's very nice of you and makes me feel great!

The worst thing is when she says she doesn't miss me and even despite her unhappiness she thinks she is doing the right thing. She has completely rewritten history so I caused every problem between us.

She misses you, but there is NO WAY she is going to admit that while you are pursuing. Remember that 8 feet of space I wrote about? You've encroached on it so she is pushing you farther away. She knows just what to say to make you feel badly. The only thing to read into those comments is that you are crowding her with your pursuit.

I certainly want the man I wanted to be or that she deserved a lot of the time.
The MC question has made me struggle. She said she'd go, but when I thought about it her breakdown comment scared me so much I rang back and told get not to worry about it. However, her comments about not missing me are so scary that I'm desperate to try it just to try something.

The irony is that the best thing you can do is nothing. You told her what you want and where you stand. If she's not deaf she heard you. Continuing to repeat and rephrase diminishes your message.

WRT MC, what you focus on expands. You both need to focus on happiness and positives right now. An MC is like a doctor, they look for and treat problems. When you focus on the problems, they gain importance and further justify how she is thinking. If you could go to a marriage cheerleading session that would celebrate everything the two of you did well, I would say go for it. Not MC, not now, its not time yet.

I'm so scared that she'll find someone else, she is doing a brilliant 180 on me which is leaving me floundering.

You cannot control is she meets someone else. You must surrender to that. You are the incumbent, you are the front runner. You can't build a fence around her to keep others out -- surrender to that.

She will NOT meet Prince Charming in the next three months. Focus and work on YOU!

Accuray