Lost

[Brit45]

okay.....she is way confused. And she needs to sort that out herself. Maybe some old timers/vets can help you out here.

What I did learn is that A's are symptoms of the problem. it wasn't that you were a bad H, you both contributed to the problems and because she was equipped to handle that she had an A. I'm not saying you have to forgive her. But at this point you still care, and you would still like a R if she sorts out her confusion and is willing to work on it. Those are fair objectives.

I would say but this is just my opinion: Tell her that you care about her deeply and would like nothing more than to work on the relationship. But that right now, she is choosing otherwise. Maybe at some point you can work on things but until then, she can not drop in and out of your house as she chooses, she's got a new place to live. That she needs to respect your house. That you don't want to harm her r with d. That it's best that you two set up a schedule so that she has time with D.

[25yearsmlc]

So to follow up on my venting from a couple of days ago.

is the venting helping you OR keeping you stuck in your anger?

it's an important issue to address honestly. A lot of us get stuck...don't stay that way. Letting go of your pain is a step that is mandatory to your healing.

It does not matter if you don't think she 'deserves" forgiveness b/c it's not for her benefit, it's for yours...see,


Holding onto anger to punish someone else, is

like lighting yourself on fire to get smoke in their eyes...

your anger hurts YOU the most, your marriage next and her last, if at all.

In all likelihood it only confirms her choice to leave...anger isn't attractive and it helps fuel her choices, affirms & justifies them, and reminds her that she's glad to be gone.

so again, figure out how much the venting is "helping".



I think I'm at the point that I accept we will not be together. In the last two months I said I was sorry for the things I did wrong in our M and she has not accepted any of the issues that she caused.


This^^^ sounds a lot like score keeping. Score cards hurt marriages.

You pretended to make amends and be changing into a new more "aware" or loving h, but in reality you expected her to respond quickly AND in kind.

So your "amends" were given with expectations - and that more or less defeats the purpose of making them.

IF and when YOU are truly regretful for causing her pain, just express THAT and feel your regret so you don't repeat that mistake.

You have no control over her reaction. Just aim for feeling at peace with you owning your part and that's all. Period.

Not only that, but she continues to try and blame me for her A, and I'm done listening to it.

of course she blames you for pushing her into the arms of OM. How else would she feel justified in having an affair?

Did you want her to feel deep shame AND show it to you? Is that healthy or realistic?

Don't misunderstand me. I'm simply explaining to you that your w did not have the affair with the idea that she was being selfish or taking something she did not deserve.

While some men are serial cheaters, adultery is different for most wives. Almost all w's who have affairs have felt neglected, betrayed or even abused, long before the affair.

So IOW, they rationalize it...they feel entitled to the affair and there is almost always a certain amount of truth to their perception. Ponder that.

Arguing with her about the affair only makes her defend it more. And it makes her believe you are the same man as you were before, which is not what you want - b/c she left that man...

NOTE-- IF she does not believe marriage to you can be better or different than before - then it really is over.

But you would need to show her consistent change in YOU, and over time, in order for her to believe things could be better/different.

How have you done that? Consistently? Over how much time? B/C you sound like a man who wants to punish her 0r see shame from her, and if she isn't suffering enough for you, then you would rather end the marriage.

Self respect matters a lot - but don't confuse it with pride/ego. Don't confuse boundaries with punitive pettiness or vindictiveness either.

It's easy to confuse them b/c WE AE IN PAIN SO WE RATIONALIZE SHOWING OUR ANGER and call it something else...
Regardless of what you believe "really" happened, what matters is HER perception. That is hard to grasp but it's true.

I know that the things I did like, not give her more of my time, or show her how much I loved her where wrong,

did you try to work on things in the marriage? I mean BEFORE the affair? Your wording seems like you are minimizing the contribution you made to the affair.

What would SHE say you did or did not do?


but none of those gave her the right to have an A. If she felt that I did not give her what she needed and that I was a bad H,

more^^^ useless scorekeeping about how WRONG she is...okay we get it, but that blame game does not help you at all!!

Our 3 mc's told my h he was being "selfish" and "acting single" so I felt vindicated...but powerless. What was I supposed to DO with that insight?

So what if I was "right"? It changed nothing in my h's eyes or what he was doing.

I needed to change MY view and MY reactions...that changed the dynamic...

also, don't freak out, but to your w, well she may not have realized what she was missing til she had it with OM.

then she should had just told me she wanted a D, then we could have decided to either work on it with MC or just said OK to the D. The A is just a complete break of trust and to make it worst, to continue an A after I know about it is just a disrespect that I find hard to live with.

well, this ^^^is just more of the blame game from you and counting her sins over.
Seriously, do you see how you are glossing over your part in this big time?

As for her continuing the affair after you found out, here is some news for you. Sometimes the cheater feels that since the affair is out in the open, it's NOT dishonest or wrong. (That's one more reason I urge caution in exposing the affair if you can fix things without doing that-b/c you want the hiding more than you want an open affair)

AND second,

I'm NOT Defending her choices, but tell me why

she would end the affair if she is ending the m instead? Isn't that the choice she is making? How did you show her that you could get past this (and not throw it in her face every time you two fight or hold it over her head the rest of her life?

See, there are times that a WAW/WAH might want to come home but if she feels that she'll never be forgiven, then why bother trying? Sometimes it's way easier to blame the exh she chose to leave rather than try saving the damaged marriage...

While I'm said that my M is ending, at the end of the day I must be able to live with myself and be a good father to my D.

Thanks to everyone who has given me advice.

IF there is a chance at her waking up and wanting back into the marriage it will be ONLY b/c

*she believes marriage to you can be better/different than before.

* You are worth it b/c you are a good father and WILL BE a loving h to her

* you won't hold the affair over her head forever. You will let it go.

IMO, The worst choice in this scenario is probably not divorce. it's staying married AND staying miserable, showing resentment to your d the rest of her life...

So if you really want to be married, then make some changes

and know that if you become a man only a fool would leave,

and if she sees the loving interaction of her daughter with her father- she'll be moved. THEN She'd second guess her choice...she'd have to.

[25yearsmlc]

Get your divorce preparation done asap... seperate bank account, photos of all property... document all time W is away and not parenting, screen shot those messages from lover.... document everything, play it cool like you don't know, then if she brings up divorce, you can lay down the law.

at the risk of offending, I must say I take issue w/ advice like this^^^.

it's all about ending the marriage, reeks of punishing and shaming her, letting your pride, anger and ego dictate. And what is the rush?

The affair is NEW so she's in a heavy fog...and
This guy is here trying to save his marriage and he hasn't even been here ONE MONTH!

Effectively saying to give her an ultimatum too...did you read the DB books Peringo?

They urge against ultimatums and this man is nowhere near ready to just end it all, despite his words of today. He's brand new and raw to all this, still reeling. No way is a decision to divorce NOW, a sound one.

Peringo, How did your approach work for your situation?

My other concern in this man's situation is his daughter. I'd be the best damn dad I could be. I'd be there for my d like never before b/c right now the mother is in la la land. she may notice his improved fatherly behavior and that will help but it's mainly for the daughter now.

If the dad checks out emotionally too, b/c of his pain and anger, she loses both parents.

Why not have the best summer of her life with her dad, let her mom miss out on that? Plan a trip with ONLY your d. That will get your w's attention. Do NOT invite her. Act as if you assume she's working and you and your d take a FUN trip you both plan together.

(I took my kids to italy when I realized my h would miss our 25th anniversary...boy did that bother him. I didn't know it then, but he told me later how much it bugged him knowing we were having a blast without him. Guess it gave him something to miss.

From MY perspective, what mattered is that I showed my kids that we could still have fun with or without h around, we would be alright no matter what-

and we went to a place none of us had been before and we all LOVED...without any reminders of h not being around. That also helped me not obsess...very helpful to all of us.

If all he does is show anger and pain and misery (aside from how UNattractive that will be to the wife who will NOT miss that stuff at all)

it also stinks for their daughter. GAL and take a trip even if it's just a weekend at the beach or mountain or some new area. Show your d a good time and that her life and family may change, but it will NOT END.

IF divorce talk comes up with your d, make sure you reassure her you will be there for her no matter what(sounds like full time). When my kids asked where their dad was and whether he loved them (since he was gone) I told them my truth--which I firmly believed...

"your dad is confused right now but I KNOW he loves you, & he'd kill or die for you" and I believe that to have been true. I also think he was selfish and dishonest but did THEY NEED to know that? No...plus, who says I'm totally right anhow?

Reassure her of all the things that won't change in her life. So if she can stay in the house she's in now, that's really good to know. If she gets to keep her same friends, staying in the same neighborhood, same school ALL of that is good for her to know. IF NOT, then reassure her of how often she will be able to return to them.

But most of this, really MOST ALL OF THIS is way too early to discuss with her unless she asks.

Also my mc said "Until you KNOW with certainty-like legal certainty-that a divorce is imminent, don't tell your kids. Things change. Plus the sooner they know the longer it takes and the less hope they have and it's more confusing if any reconciliatory acts take place. So don't tell until if and when you KNOW it'll happen SOON..."

til then, try saying, IF SHE ASKS about a divorce and only if

"I hope not b/c I've loved your mom a long time"... and tell her you are "working on things" and or, that you "still have some tricks up your sleeve" and if she blames your w totally, don't let her.

Honor your wife's reputation for your daughter's sake. Grasp this...your d will see the truth of things soon enough. Protect her as long as possible. Besides, is this behavior of your wife's new? Seems like it.

She might be acting a bit off b/c she needs help...let's hope she gets some.

((( )))

[Brit45]

^^^^^ all of this is gold and wonderful. So happy you stopped by. And I agree with your comments re the other poster.

I read a quote that said if someone shot an arrow into your heart you wouldn't yell at the shooter you'd turn your attention to your heart. Heal first.

(I took my kids to italy when I realized my h would miss our 25th anniversary...boy did that bother him. I didn't know it then, but he told me later how much it bugged him knowing we were having a blast without him. Guess it gave him something to miss.

HA! I mentioned off handedly that we were going somewhere in the next few days (not even for fun reasons) and H said oh, I'm kinda jealous. I would have wanted to go. And I said you can if you want and he said I can't get off work that soon. oh well! Your life keeps going! They choose to not be a part of it.

[25yearsmlc]

I'm still playing catch up on your sitch...

so you had the DB books and were reading them but still confronted her and then STILL gave her an ultimatum? WHAT WAS YOUR GOAL??

She saw zero change in you before you forced a choice from her.

Do you see how your impulsiveness and anger/fury refusal to DB at all,

did NOT HELP YOUR SITUATION? Can you see this?

Hey I know you are hurting but can you process new information and take it in?
I need to know this or it's a waste of time to post to you before you are able to "hear" us.

So I could no longer take it. I txt the W and told her I knew. She txt back what are you talking about? I said I would not discuss it over the phone, with 30mins she was here. I ask her do you have something to say to me? She got very defensive and told me to stop playing game. I told her this is not a game, I reminded her that the last time we talked I asked her not to lie if she had feelings for someone else and you did. She finally said yes she was with someone else. We talked for about an hour about all our old issues I told her I knew we both mad mistakes but I wanted to fix them. I ask her if she lover the OM, she got quiet so I asked again, and then she said YES. I told her that she had to choose our family or OM. She said she needed couple of days to think about it.

INSTEAD you might have said "let me show you that things CAN be better between us" and then behaved differently....gosh this is unfortunate.


I said OK, seeing it was late and raining I could he she could stay in the guest room, and she said OK. I went to me room and sat in bed thinking about things
and then it hit me,

why are you not in the same bedroom? Do you both sleep in separate rooms normally? WHY? Wow that's a huge red flag to me.


why does she need a couple of days t think about family or OM?

WHY? B/C SHE IS CONFUSED....wow, do you see how your ego made this decision? And then she said "I choose OM"...so your approach needs to change asap.

I don't think it's too late but you must act now. Be less predictable and different.

Why I'm I given her this time and letting her sleep in our family house when she told me she loves OM? So I went to her room and told her I made up my mind. You either leave OM and commit to making our M work, or we can't begin to fix us. She told me she still needed a couple of days. I told her that it not an option, you either want to work on our M or you want to be with OM. She started with the ITLTL speak, and I told her we have not even tried to fix it and I did not want to be a plan B if the A with the OM did not work.


what was the rush? Geez...

She said then fine, I choose him. I then said OK you have to go and she left. I don't think it was fair to ask me her H of 10yrs to give her a couple of days to choose her family or some guy she has been with for a month.

Well, so, you don't think it was "fair" of her to want time to think? Your solution for "justice" was that when she fessed up like YOU demanded she do, and then she wanted time to think- late at night- you refused.

Giving her that time, could NOT have gotten a worse result than what you got by forcing her THEN & THERE.


Make no mistake. You forced her to choose b/c YOU could not handle any delay or uncertainty (which she has been living with for some time.)

Given that scenario, I can't imagine her not choosing OM. He sends love poems and expresses his love for her; you make demands, sleep in separate rooms and corner her late at night with lousy weather and kick her out when she's paying bills too. (Is the house ALL yours?)

As much as you hold her demanding job against her, I have to say it stinks to be a working mom with a tough job that requires travel b/c it's LONELY and if your h isn't attentive, it is a set up for failure.

Also, Don't assume her affair is one orgasm and laugh after another. It tears her up I'm sure. She is a mother and she's in a major league fog and she's been cornered by you and you showed her no hope of improving the marriage.

She wanted some time to reflect. You acted in haste and anger w/your wounded pride. I understand that, but I sure feel bad about that choice.


I don't know if this was the wakeup call she needed or the beginning of our D.
Either way, I'm ready to move on.

What? So after ONE LONG MONTH here, you are "ready to move on"....wow, that was the fastest choice to move on that I have seen on this board in my 6 years here.

A 10 year marriage with a child, then an affair of a few weeks or months, and you are "ready to move on".

Man you need to own a lot more of this situation b/c there's no way you are committed to change or working on the marriage if you are quitting this fast.

Now some people cannot forgive an affair. I don't judge them but I do hold them accountable for THAT choice.

If that's you, then so be it. But admit it and stop the score keeping and blame.

It's soooo counter productive. The separate bedrooms and the controlling impulsiveness you showed from the start, w/all the texting and pursuit and then all the anger and immediate demands for her to choose you or OM, NOW,
hey,

Spend your energy on making a better life for you, becoming a better more interesting involved man, a man only a fool would leave. And a great /grateful dad.

A confident loving man (even wounded men can have confidence) is far more attractive, and you need to give your w something to miss. And you need to give your d extra love.

[25yearsmlc]

ps

your d is watching you. If she knows you are hurting, then Model for her how to behave or react for when she gets hurt too. Be a man of strength & honor.

You can't curl up in the fetal position or stay bitter forever. You will need to GAL and show her that. It's a valuable lesson. You both need that lesson.

make sense?

[dscl]

Thanks everyone.

I do understand what everyone one is saying, but the nagging feeling is what I said before, and I know this is mind reading, but my feeling is she is only waiting to after D bday to tell me she is done.

Im willing to work my issues with the A, but it hurts that it continues even after she knows that I know, and W wants me to accept that it MY fault that it is happening. While I admit that I have not followed DB 100%, I do believe that setting a boundary of her not staying in the home while she is seeing OM is the right thing to do.

Thoughts?

[dscl]

Thanks everyone.

I do understand what everyone one is saying, but the nagging feeling is what I said before, and I know this is mind reading, but my feeling is she is only waiting to after D bday to tell me she is done.

Im willing to work my issues with the A, but it hurts that it continues even after she knows that I know, and W wants me to accept that it MY fault that it is happening. While I admit that I have not followed DB 100%, I do believe that setting a boundary of her not staying in the home while she is seeing OM is the right thing to do.

Thoughts?

[dscl]

I'm still playing catch up on your sitch...

so you had the DB books and were reading them but still confronted her and then STILL gave her an ultimatum? WHAT WAS YOUR GOAL??

She saw zero change in you before you forced a choice from her.

Do you see how your impulsiveness and anger/fury refusal to DB at all,

did NOT HELP YOUR SITUATION? Can you see this?

Hey I know you are hurting but can you process new information and take it in?
I need to know this or it's a waste of time to post to you before you are able to "hear" us.

So I could no longer take it. I txt the W and told her I knew. She txt back what are you talking about? I said I would not discuss it over the phone, with 30mins she was here. I ask her do you have something to say to me? She got very defensive and told me to stop playing game. I told her this is not a game, I reminded her that the last time we talked I asked her not to lie if she had feelings for someone else and you did. She finally said yes she was with someone else. We talked for about an hour about all our old issues I told her I knew we both mad mistakes but I wanted to fix them. I ask her if she lover the OM, she got quiet so I asked again, and then she said YES. I told her that she had to choose our family or OM. She said she needed couple of days to think about it.

INSTEAD you might have said "let me show you that things CAN be better between us" and then behaved differently....gosh this is unfortunate.


I said OK, seeing it was late and raining I could he she could stay in the guest room, and she said OK. I went to me room and sat in bed thinking about things
and then it hit me,

why are you not in the same bedroom? Do you both sleep in separate rooms normally? WHY? Wow that's a huge red flag to me.


why does she need a couple of days t think about family or OM?

WHY? B/C SHE IS CONFUSED....wow, do you see how your ego made this decision? And then she said "I choose OM"...so your approach needs to change asap.

I don't think it's too late but you must act now. Be less predictable and different.

Why I'm I given her this time and letting her sleep in our family house when she told me she loves OM? So I went to her room and told her I made up my mind. You either leave OM and commit to making our M work, or we can't begin to fix us. She told me she still needed a couple of days. I told her that it not an option, you either want to work on our M or you want to be with OM. She started with the ITLTL speak, and I told her we have not even tried to fix it and I did not want to be a plan B if the A with the OM did not work.


what was the rush? Geez...

She said then fine, I choose him. I then said OK you have to go and she left. I don't think it was fair to ask me her H of 10yrs to give her a couple of days to choose her family or some guy she has been with for a month.

Well, so, you don't think it was "fair" of her to want time to think? Your solution for "justice" was that when she fessed up like YOU demanded she do, and then she wanted time to think- late at night- you refused.

Giving her that time, could NOT have gotten a worse result than what you got by forcing her THEN & THERE.


Make no mistake. You forced her to choose b/c YOU could not handle any delay or uncertainty (which she has been living with for some time.)

Given that scenario, I can't imagine her not choosing OM. He sends love poems and expresses his love for her; you make demands, sleep in separate rooms and corner her late at night with lousy weather and kick her out when she's paying bills too. (Is the house ALL yours?)

As much as you hold her demanding job against her, I have to say it stinks to be a working mom with a tough job that requires travel b/c it's LONELY and if your h isn't attentive, it is a set up for failure.

Also, Don't assume her affair is one orgasm and laugh after another. It tears her up I'm sure. She is a mother and she's in a major league fog and she's been cornered by you and you showed her no hope of improving the marriage.

She wanted some time to reflect. You acted in haste and anger w/your wounded pride. I understand that, but I sure feel bad about that choice.


I don't know if this was the wakeup call she needed or the beginning of our D.
Either way, I'm ready to move on.

What? So after ONE LONG MONTH here, you are "ready to move on"....wow, that was the fastest choice to move on that I have seen on this board in my 6 years here.

A 10 year marriage with a child, then an affair of a few weeks or months, and you are "ready to move on".

Man you need to own a lot more of this situation b/c there's no way you are committed to change or working on the marriage if you are quitting this fast.

Now some people cannot forgive an affair. I don't judge them but I do hold them accountable for THAT choice.

If that's you, then so be it. But admit it and stop the score keeping and blame.

It's soooo counter productive. The separate bedrooms and the controlling impulsiveness you showed from the start, w/all the texting and pursuit and then all the anger and immediate demands for her to choose you or OM, NOW,
hey,

Spend your energy on making a better life for you, becoming a better more interesting involved man, a man only a fool would leave. And a great /grateful dad.

A confident loving man (even wounded men can have confidence) is far more attractive, and you need to give your w something to miss. And you need to give your d extra love.

She has not lived at home for the last two months, that was the first night she stayed here and that was the reason she was in the guest room.

[dscl]

It does. Thanks