Kimmerz, Do you know if the children have expressed their concerns to their father?
Yes, you should pay attention to what your children are telling you It's obvious that something has happened and it could be that the ow is there all of the time and he's actually not devoting his attention to them. The time may come when you need to have a "chat" w/him about the fact that they only want to spend one night, not two w/him and see if he can offer any insight as to why they are expressing their desires so strongly.
Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to. The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
If it were me, I would want to know that the kids had issues staying with me, and see if I could figure out why. The tricky part is trying to get at the root cause, since kids don't want to hurt anyone, and/or may not have the vocabulary to express their concerns.
Talk with XH, see if he wants to know and if separately you two can figure out what is going on, without sabotaging anything.
In the depths of winter, I finally learned that within me there lay an invincible summer. - Albert Camus
Uncertainty is the very condition which impels people to unfold their powers.-Eric Fromm
That is their father and the kids can't refuse to see him. If they come home crying, patch the kids up and turn around and send them back out to him. Though I agree the girls should have a relationship with him, I do not feel it's my job to jump up in the middle of this and try to fix anything. This is between their Dad and the girls. It's his responsibility to nurture them and work on bridging that gap that he made, not me.
Of course you should pay attention to them. But what you do makes all the difference. How you frame things, makes all the difference. Forcing them is not something you want to do. From a legal standpoint, you may not have a lot of choices in that. But you do have a choice how you frame it. For their sake. I don't suggest you get in the middle of it. I suggest that you consider how you can best help the girls cope and still give them what they need to grow: your love and support.
Take your emotions out of it and look again. This is about them and them only.
How can you make it work without a) causing damage to them and b) without getting in the middle of it.
Think about it and the answer will come to you. Even if it means talking to your xh about it. Your kids deserve your best efforts, even if not successful the first time
AJ
"Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter" MLK Put the glass down... "Yesterday I was clever so I wanted to change the world Today I am wise, so I am changing myself."
Thanks for checking in T. My summer has started out with a bang, and Im sleep deprived. I will catch up on sleep and feel human again and be able to think straight. It just dawned on me that alot of these rollercoaster emotions I have are due to sleep deprivation and having a very demanding life style as it is. It's time to work on me big time!
Well guys this is where Im stuck between a rock and a hard place here. I feel my girls have been very open with me in regards to their feelings about their Dad, and the dynamics that go on between him and at his place with OW. The problem is...the girls do not feel safe talking to their father about their REAL feelings about the situation. Their father is the same way. He hasn't created a type of repor with them where they feel safe to really let their feelings out, even about him. I feel the biggest factor in that is because their father acts like nothing is wrong. This was also a big issue between us..you know...there's an elephant in the room but we ignore it. We walk around it, and avoid it and step over the heaping steaming piles of elephant doo doo. Up until we trip over the rug that we've swept so many issues under that there's a big bump and we fall...only to face plant in the big steaming pile of elephant doo doo we've ignored all along. Then, it's my fault!
The girls are very put out by the OW plain and simple.From what I've gathered, they want their Dad to themselves, they don't want to share. Ow appears to understand that these girls have a mother and has kept and extreme distance from them. Her only reaction is to act like a nice hostess to the girls, which entails of greeting them when they come over, and then has nothing to do with them the rest of their stay.
However I realize I played a part in the girls being very put out by the OW. I handled it the best way I thought I should, but no matter what choice I made, it was extremely difficult. At the time I feel I was stuck between acting out of intergrity to my own children for the sake of their lives, or just sugar coating it for temporary comfort measures. I talked this over with my oldest yesterday and she adminantly told me that she wants me and expects me to always tell her the truth about things because she hates being lied to. When XH came out in the open about Ow, and exactly who thie OW was, I told the girls who she was. This womans ex husband tried to kill their father 4 years ago. I remember being really stuck in if I should've told them who exactly this woman was. But at the same time I knew eventually they would find out, and that for their very own safety I felt they should know now, then down the future. Our biggest concern has been what when OW's ex husband gets released from prison, he will most definately go after XH and OW now that their relationship is open and legit. My biggest fear is this OW's ex husband will go nutts and on another shooting spree while the girls are with XH and OW. He's not released for another 3 years. Perhaps XH and OW won't even be together by then. But it still scares me alot.
I asked my oldest daughter if I hadn't of told her who OW was would she have remembered? My daughter had a look on her face that expressed " I don't know ", then said to me " Mom I wanted you to tell me the truth. Always tell me the truth, because I hate lies. Im glad you told me. Sometimes the truth really hurts, but it's best to always know the truth".
Damn...at least I did something right with her!
Another problem. My Xh feels Im the one to ultimately blame for the girls anger and resentment towards him leaving. When I told him I needed some answers from him because the girls wanted to know when he was coming back, it was then he emailed me and told me he wanted the divorce. He then told me tell them whatever I thought was best and if I needed any support just to let him know and he'd back me up....Damn! Hind sight being 20/20! And I was heart broken over a man that left me to break the news to the kids?
When the girls were having a very hard time, with him being gone I wrote him emails telling him what they were going through. He never once talked to me about it or responded to me about it. He refused to speak to me for 3 months because it was also at that time I had gotten my attorney.
Over the course of the last few months he tries to parent with me an anything BUT emotional issues the girls still have with the divorce. It got brought up a week ago in regards to a bedwetting issue my daughter still has. When I explained to him (via text, he won't talk to me in person unless I march out in the driveway and corner him) THAT THIS ISSUE WITH HER HAS EMOTION PROBLEMS ON IT, He didnt even respond to that. he didn't ask what they problems were, what could we do, what was going on with her to make her feel insecure, nothing. Infact I didn't hear from him for 1 more week, and that was his schedule.
So basically, I feel XH is emotionally unavailable to not only me all our marriage but to his own children. His mother was never emotionally available to him, but she's always expected others to be emotionally available to her.
I don't know what else to do but just take this on my own as usual, because there's just no getting through to him. And any attempt to do so will result in him placing blame on me. Last time our oldest daughter was having an emotionally hard time with him and was crying in her room at his apartment, I got a nasty text stating it was all my fault she was crying because I made her feel guilty for having fun and being with her.
Quite frankly I really wonder if his OW is pumping these ideas in his head. either he's always been this paranoid and has just now let me know this past year, or someone is brainwashing him. He never used to accuse me of all these things before ever! Yes emotionally unavaiable, but these accusations of alienating the children, sucking all his finances out of him, making his life hell, when he was the one that walked out in the first place?
Kimmerz, I'm sorry to see that things haven't gone well in the area of the girls and their father. I can see where they are hesitant to speak to him about their concerns. It's good that your girls are talking to you about their concerns. Yes, bedwetting is a sign of emotional distress and there are many children who are going through this when something like a divorce, death of a family member or another stressful situation is going on in their lives. Your daughter is very stressed about the situation and doesn't know how to voice her fears/feelings.
The mlcer will not take on the blame for anything that they have said or done wrong...it is always the lbs who creates the situation. Again, passive-aggressive behavior at its finest.
As to whether the ow is pumping ideas into your h's head. She could be fueling the fire. They do tend to latch on to any opportunity to feed the embers that are already there. Although, in mlc, many times, the mlcers doesn't need any help when it comes to the things going on in his head, especially when it comes to the negative thoughts he has about us and the relationship.
Kimmerz, I know that you've attempted to speak to him about various issues and have been hitting a brick wall. You can't rationalize w/him...time to step back and try to find a way to help your daughters on your own...it's not going to sink in w/your h and he's not going to listen. I'm very sorry that he won't.
Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to. The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
Your situation is so similar to mine. My kids cannot speak their mind with their father because he does not want to hear the truth. If my kids talk honestly about what he did or OW he will rage or chastise them because he wants to keep the lie and fantasy going. It is like you say, there is a white elephant in the room. My youngest is 7. She told ex last week that she does not want to come over to his house anymore. She would still like to see him but she does not want anymore overnights with him. This was the first time any of my children expressed exactly what they wanted. She was proud of herself even though he told her she "was a bad girl for saying that". All we can do is let them express themselves at their pace and support them through this hell. Ex has not taken my daughter since she told him that. I am so proud of her. She just does not want to live in his OW kooky world anymore and in her own way she knows something is wrong with him.
Me: 46 H:44 Together: 25 years Married: 20 years Separated: 11-30-06 Divorced 12-21-07 OW: EA began 2005 PA began end of 2006 3 children,20, 16, 6 ex asked for forgiveness 01/16/11
Thanks so much for your responses. It's nice to know other's are having this problem too. Trusting, yes indeed things are similar with our situations and it sounds like my two girls and your daughter share the same thoughts! That's exactly how they feel! After observing them for the past 5 months, it seems like they go just because they feel obligated to go. And yes the kooky OW world really seems ludicrous to my girls as well. They just don't get it.
I was a little suprised to find out that my girls do not enjoy spending more that one night with Xh and OW. Due to my work schedule changing temporarily they had to stay 2 nights for about a month. Then XH decided he liked having them 2 nights a week and got his schedule re arranged so he could have them 2 nights a week regardless. This is where I have to chuckle...the girls grew tired of this and started complaining about 2 nights a week. D9 finally put her foot down last week and told me she didn't like this and only wants to stay 1 night a week. I told her that is fine, but she must take this up with her father.
And that is what she did. This week D9 didn't want to stay at all. XH asked D12 if she was going to stay and she told him she wanted to come home and no she wasn't staying with him either.
I think his feelings are hurt.
I feel the girls have reached the point to where they don't mind telling him they don't want to stay. But telling him why...that's the hard part. See XH literally bends over backwards in trying to entertain them with material things, games, and just stuff to stay super busy. But they don't want that, they want an emotional connection. It's like I see him trying, but it's so superficial. He doesn't really know how to connect with them. I realize it's not going to be the same with mom as it would with Dad. But it's like something is just missing with him. It's like what I see, is him trying to do all the right things and say all the right things, like he's trying to gain all this approval or gain some sort of self esteem from being accepted, but that's all. He's even done it with me several times. What I can't tell is if he's doing it with me as a mind game just so he gets what he wants (he's done this before) or if he really is trying to still seek my approval sometimes.
I was very touched and honored that D12 shared a little journal entry she made at school for a writing project. This is the second one she's shared and what's good about this is she's writing some about XH being gone.Im glad she's starting to find ways to express herself. What struck me is she said in her journal " My dad spoiles me. But I really don't want to be spoiled".
I do know that OW was seen by MIL on thanksgiving really stoking his fire in regards to the divorce and he had his cousin right along side her doing it too. Im so thankful MIL stepped in and told him to not listen to her. I really believe it's been her that's been stoking his fire to leave me for a long time. I have no proof, but I have my gut feeling and that's all I need. Though the thought of that makes me frustrated, Im also letting it go. I know the truth, and really if XH ever peaks out of the tunnel long enough and starts to think for himself clearly, he'll see the truth too.
So here we go again....more spew...gee its been almost a month I should feel good.
Yesterday I was told by my neighbor that a truck that looked like XH was in my driveway when we were out of town last week. the description of the people sounded like XH and Ow.
So I asked XH if he was here. He flew off the handle in defensiveness, explanations and alibi's. I asked him why he was so super defensive because all I did was ask. Then he proceeds to tell me that if I were getting accused of certain things Id act the same way and the only reason he was explaining anything was because I never believe him anyway.
My response was that I was just asking him where he was, all I needed was an answer. I told him that trusting him is hard and I have my reasons. I said feeling accused is not fun and I can see how he may feel that way, but all I was doing was asking.
So my question....it's normal for an MLCer to fly off the handle at the smallest question? He's become super defensive everytime I've asked him to do a little explaining, I mean he goes off the wall.
So to me if someone flies off the handle in being defensive when asked to tell the truth about something, isn't that a way to de-rail the person asking so they feel so awful they asked in the first place?
