Do What Works

[scaredsilly]

no, zig. you're not alone. i'm trying to detach, GAL, not pursuing, and nothing's working.

[2thepoint]

Usually when someone believes "nothing's working" it is because:

a) it really isn't working and they need to try something different
or
b) it isn't working because not enough time has been given to see if it works or not
or
c) they haven't clearly defined what it is they want, (maybe the goal it too broad).

Think of it this way. If your goal is a reconciliation with your spouse and after several months this hasn't happened, you might feel as if nothing's working. On the other hand, if your goal is a reconciliation but you break down that goal into smaller more achievable targets, it is easier to measure and adjust as needed given sufficient time to see if things are working as anticipated.

In my specific sitch, I of course desired a reconciliation. However, to get there I had to slow down the march towards divorce first and I also had to work towards a better relationship with my W. To do that I had to give my W a ton of space. I had to work on my 180's. I needed to GAL. And to keep my sanity I needed to seek guidance and support from others, including people on this forum.

If I measured my success on whether on reconciled with my W, I'd have to say "nothing's working" because we have not reconciled. But, if I measured my success based upon my smaller, more achievable goals (i.e. slowing the march towards D, improving the R with my W), I'd say that has worked.

Now I need to work towards a new set of goals, one of which is moving back into my home and getting my W and I into some form of joint counseling. These too seem somewhat broad and so I may need to break down these goals further.

A marital crisis is much like a big elephant. And how do you eat an elephant? One bite at a time.

[zig]

thanks 2tp - that really helped.

i was telling a friend today, that it's crazy how we know what is supposed to work, and we just can't get there overnight - i read and reread all this stuff and it's like the message doesn't quite get through - just slowly in stages.

we're like a dry sponge when it's dropped in water - soaking in a bit at a time until it's all wet

thanks for writing that out so clearly - it seems so clear when it's written down and i have just read it.

then later, well, all i keep finding myself focusing on is the end result and even forgetting my short term goals in the heat of the moment.

zig

[Starsky309]

jumping in here - very curious to know what you guys are referring to about the 2or 3 concepts. do you remember?

Yes, I was referring to the fact that despite lots of things (exposure, "snooping," "being their best friend" while wayward, etc.) that are actually controversial around here, there are a few that seem to be near-unanimous -- they are the "givens" that are pretty much hard-and-fast rules:

1. The betrayed spouse should NOT move out of their marital home, nor their marital bed. If the wayward spouse wants "space," then they should be the one to leave (although you shouldn't push them to);

2. When a spouse is actively wayward, and especially if they've thrown around the threat of divorce, a betrayed spouse would be wise to protect their finances, and to meet with a good family law attorney to better understand what their rights and responsibilities are (it doesn't mean they have to file -- "knowledge is power");

3. If you do make the intensely personal decision to continue to have sex with a spouse who is known to be actively in a physical affair, USE PROTECTION, and if you decide to resume LM with a spouse who was formerly wayward, you should both get tested first (and the betrayed spouse should be provided with a copy of the wayward spouse's test results).


Those are three of the "biggies" that come to mind.


Starsky

[Starsky309]

ps - hope this thread gets some traffic and we could have a good discussion on "doing what works"

i think i wouldn't be too off the mark if i said that most of us newbies here have NO idea what that really means.

It's the basic underlying tenet of DBing. It means it's a results-based approach, and not some "navel-gazing" one. You experiment with different approaches, strategies and tactics, and you monitor the results and you adjust accordingly. One example might be initiating hugs with your walkaway wife, perhaps one whose prior marital complaint was that you weren't affectionate enough: does she seem to respond to it, or does she pull away? If she responds to it, do more of it; if she doesn't seem to like it (or even says so), stop doing it.

That's just one example.

I like the concept, but the only caveat I'd throw out there (and it's kind of a big one) is that I see a lot of people that define "works" as "he/she is being nice to me," and I don't think that's the right measuring stick. I think the only appropriate measuring stick is "Is he/she making consistent, demonstrable moves back towards the marriage?" and you have to be really careful, because sometimes a cheating spouse will intentionally be "nice" to you in order to keep you as "plan B." Here's how I put it (from my personal archives):


On “Doing What Works”:


One of the misconceptions about DBing, in my opinion, is the "Do what works" thing. The problem is that people mis-define "works" as being "what doesn't make her/him angry" and "what makes her/him act nice towards me." Instead of as "what moves me further along down the path toward a mutually-healthy and committed marriage."

Sometimes one has to take a short-term "hit" in the "nice" department in order to solidify a healthier, longer-term gain.

[zig]

well, i guess according to what you've described above, i am doing NOTHING that works, because after 10 months, he is showing NO signs of moving towards the marriage.

the only "change" that i can see is that he is moving towards co-parenting and wanting to talk about s together.

can I see that as a positive baby step - in comparison to him insisting and making sure that we did EVERYTHING separately until about a month ago with s?

and when i say separately - it was always separately through most of the marriage. now in the last week, i've been amazed that he wanted us to discuss together what we do with s for the summer and be on the same page about it.

he's also committed already to having s's birthday party together at the end of june at his parents house as we've always done. everyone we know will be there - it's always been our huge bash of the year with 30 or 40 people.

i'm not trying to read anything into the party thing - because it would be mind reading. but the fact that he committed to something like that so far in advance, is the first sign of committing to anything to do with the extended family for months

i do find myself thinking that he is being a bit careful and nice to keep me as plan b - i have no illusions - there's a new tension about him recently - coinciding with me letting go.

so any thought on what i could change? would be greatly appreciated.

thanks starsky, and as i said before - i hope this thread gets awful active - and we get a good discussion going

hope you're having a great day
zig

[Starsky309]

Zig,

I think you could look at it as "at least he's not still making futher steps AWAY from the marriage."

A vehicle have to shift to 'Neutral' before it can go from 'Reverse' to 'Drive.'

NO EXPECTATIONS. Do what you do for your kids, FOR YOUR KIDS -- not with some thought of re-attracting your husband. And be thankful you guys are at least civilly co-parenting together.


Starsky

[Truegritter]

I don't think there is one answer that fits all.

I think if you were a selfish person in your M then becoming the opposite (if you feel that is who you want to be) will and should be your goal.

Most LBS if they have made it here recognize that they want to change whether it is their marriage or themselves.

BUT

That is a process. A process of stopping the natural inertia of feeling like you are the one left behind and that you will do anything to get your spouse back. There is guilt and remorse and a host of other feeelings that occupy the space of your mind and emotions that keep you from seeing reality and accepting it.

Detaching, GALing, and most importantly

Doing your own work and letting go of getting your spouse back as the only successful outcome.

That enables you to think clearly.

From that place you are able to look honestly at your spouse and ask yourself the question whether it is healthy for you to be with them at this point in time...

Then... you ask yourself what would I need to see if I were to accept this person back in my life given who I have become?

That is a good day.

AND it can lead to change in your spouse the same way it lead to change for you.

You can't change another person's feeling.

They have to come to it on their own. You can either hinder that or leave them to it. No other way to go. You don't control it.

Always ask yourself: Am I doing this to change the other person? No matter what it is.

I am not talking boundaries. They protect you not seek change another.

Change?

It won't with someone breathing down their neck. With guilt. Or with behavior that seeks to manipulate.

When your eyes open you will know and recognize a healthy spouse you may risk letting back in your life.

Rather than one you accept on any terms.

That way

YOU decide your own fate and the terms of how you move on from this tragedy instead of being the victim of someone else's choice.

[heartbrokeinsd]

wow..that is food for thught..

[zig]

Zig,

I think you could look at it as "at least he's not still making futher steps AWAY from the marriage."
he told me that he is - when he bought the house. in some ways it seems as if he is - he has withdrawn hard - but then seems to come towards me very temporarily and then pulls away again. it feels as if he is in holding pattern right now..

A vehicle have to shift to 'Neutral' before it can go from 'Reverse' to 'Drive.'

i like the way you put that - i wouldn't call his behavior neutral - more like jumping all over the board. if the 'splitting' thing really exists, i would say he's splitting a lot. the last month he seems to be incredibly stressed - to the point that he can't hide it from the people he was able to until now.

NO EXPECTATIONS. Do what you do for your kids, FOR YOUR KIDS -- not with some thought of re-attracting your husband. And be thankful you guys are at least civilly co-parenting together.

i don't have expectations - and i have really started to detach - i can see it in my own reactions when he's on edge and laying into me - it's as if suddenly i have been able to step back so much that i can see it doesn't have much to do with me really - just his own stuff.

as for co-parenting civilly - i'm not sure i would classify it like that. it's more a case of us each doing our own thing. recently we have had conversations that he has initiated where we talk about s in what seems a really positive way and discuss issues we've had on how to deal with certain things. but afterwards it's as if we haven't had the conversation at all - the next time i talk to him, and refer to something we discussed - i sometimes get a barrage back with a lot of irritation. i've learned to just keep quiet and wait until the next time he's ready to deal with it.

i can SEE the instant he feels pressured - it's becoming very transparent now. so if he feels like dealing with a certain something, whatever it is, he's comfortable coming to me with it in a relaxed manner and discussing it.

but i am not really "allowed" to initiate a conversation or suggestion about certain things i would like us to do with s, or in a certain way - that brings on a lot of tension and him pulling back or getting angry.


Starsky

thanks for your reply - it helps me . and believe me i'm suddenly at the point where i am not doing anything to try and re-attrat my husband. it's becoming more a case of can he re-attract me! i'm still standing but in a different place now - the right place! i just want to figure out how to get the co-parenting relationship on the right track - as a start - it's my only goal for now.

zig