W told me she is done & doesn't love me anymore-P3

[Snowman]

Update-Son is fun but will have what I call "hockey month until he is 6-7 years old. Oh well, tha'ts kids for you.

My W is on her London trip and I don't have to deal with hear calling or texting while she is gone because it was would cost her a fortune to do so from her cell phone. I get my S for like 2 weeks straight which will be fun and tiring at the same time.

I coached his soccer practice by myself and did a great job getting the kids to do drills/games. They enjoyed it. I coached his soccer game as well and another divorce dad stepped up to help which I was thankful for as I had to run my S to the potty during the middle of them game. The game went well and the kids played great.

I was flipping through songs on my Ipod hooked to the car and landed on "The First Cut is the Deepest" by Sheryl Crow and 5 seconds into the song my S said that is mommy's song so I continued to listen and said to myself "Oh Brother". I would like change the words to this song to direct it towards my W but oh well. I just thought it was crazy my S pointed it out to me.

I get to throw my S his Bday party without worrying about sharing my S as my W is on her vacation. Kudos for me.

I had a very eye opening conversation on Facebook with one of my W's childhood friend (lives far away now) that had been friends with her for 15+ years. She knew something weird was going on with my W just from all her Facebook activity. I told her what was going on as she asked and prefaced it with I didn't want to tell a one sided story or negative slant but fill her in on the basic events that happened. Her response to me is what blew me as it was spot on from my perspective and it felt like I was talking to the first person that actually knows who my W is.

I want to share some of the perspective shared by this person for you to read:
W's Friend: Well I hate to be psychoanalytical but I have know your W almost all her life. And one thing that has been consistent with her is her ability and desire to be accepted by whatever group she happens to find herself in. Everyone wants to be accepted, but for her she wants acceptance from everyone, no matter the group. She has always been extremely insecure in that way. So, most adults eventually find their values and whatever they stand for and stick with groups that can help them uphold that lifestyle, whether that be for or against the church or whatever.
Me: Your analysis is right on. She is way insecure.
W's Friend: Unfortunately, because your W has been bounced from one group to the next her whole life, she has never really come to grips with what she really believes in.
Because that changes based on who she is with, and those people and their values change all the time. So she is in constant flux and will be until she comes to term with who SHE is.
Me: Exactly
W's Friend: So, unfortunately for her, and for me, she decided to become close with those people who probably bad mouth the church and their beliefs, and so she acted exactly as is typical for her and decided to adopt those beliefs.
Me: She changes her mind so often I could never figure her out.
W's Friend: I am certain that if I was there to be an influence, or if she had clung to friends who could uphold the church values, then this would not have happened.
So, this is the real root of the problem, and hopefully someday she can see and come to grips with that.
Me: I don't want the perception to be that I was a perfect church goer either but I will never disown the church.
W's Friend: But, unfortunately, another big weakness of hers is denial. So it may be some time before this happens. And let's hope that it does.
Me: I wish I had talked to you a long time ago. You do know my W and are hitting it read on the head with her.
W's Friend: So if I were to say anything to her, I would say that "W's name". You need to separate yourself from everyone else and figure out what YOU believe and what you want. And you need to stick with that. And you also need to find a way to find some self-esteem in some way other than acceptance from everyone, because it has brought you and everyone else a lot of heart ache.
And sometimes, figuring out what you believe in just comes down to how you feel when you're doing one thing or the other.
If she truly feels happy with herself when she is partying and drinking and bouncing from guy to guy, then ok. I guess this is her happy place. But if she feels HAPPIER following the church and being in that place...
So yeah... I am not sure this helps YOU any.
Me: It does.
I feel like I'm talking to someone that knows my W
W's Friend: Well I would hope that I do.
I just feel terrible that I was not there. That she never called me.
Me: To much shame.
W's Friend: But I guess that was because of the friends she had decided to hang on to.
Me: She got pist at her mom for saying one thing and pretty much disowned her.
W's Friend: Well and the sad thing is that that anger is really evidence of her own self-loathing.
Me: Exactly
W's Friend: When people are angry at their own behavior, then they hate for others to point it out.
If they are not in the right place to want to do something about it.
Me: Exactly
Don't get me wrong I have my issues and went to counseling to work on me but she mostly projected her problems on me.
W's Friend: And, unfortunately, there are certain people who are particularly bad at pointing those things out, if they appear to be self-righteous or to have "had it easy and not be able to understand" like I might be, or people who have had their own fair share of issues so have no place to talk, like her mom.
Me: Yep
W's Friend: Well kudos to you for trying.
That's the biggest step in my opinion. It takes courage to own up and be brave enough to say, I need to make changes.
Me: True. I changing me for me.
My W tried to say I pushed all her friends away and I have yet to figure that out.
She literally has all new friends that I don't know at all.
W's Friend: Yeah I was not there enough to know.
Me: Its just an excuse for her behaviour
W's Friend: Well she is good at blaming others.
But a lot of people do that when in her situation.
Just another form of coping and denial.
Me: Yep

This is the meat and potatoes of the conversation. I wanted to share it for what its worth. Some may criticize me but I'm sharing the truth and sharing from a person that has known my W way longer than I ever have so I figure it is worth while perspective.

[Snowman]

Update-My W decide she wanted to call from London on my S's bday without telling me and ended up calling at 6am in the morning because she didn't get the time zone conversion down right. I told her to call back later very nicely as it was only 6am. She said she would call back in 1 hour and hung up. I knew 7am would be to early and not work either but she hung up and I went back to sleep. She called at 7am and I was getting in the shower and our S was still not up. I told her to call back later and she informs me she can't she will be on a tour. In my head I was getting mad as I don't give a d*m if she is on a tour, if you wanted to talk to your S on his Bday then don't plan your vacation during it that I pointed out to her 4 months ago and she didn't care. She said she would call back yet again.

I babysit my phone while I was getting my son and me ready for the day waiting for her call until 15 mins to 8am. No call but all the sudden my phone had voice-mails but my phone never rang. I started to listen to the voice-mails which was my W getting really mad and accusing me of screening her calls and telling me how ridiculous I was being and that she just wanted to talk to ous S on his Bday. I never screened her calls as the phone never rang and if I was screening her calls I wouldn't have answered the 2nd call. While I was listening to the voice-mails the phone showed she was calling so of course I answered. She started to accuse me of screening her calls which I informed her that I didn't and she knows how bad the cell reception is at our house. She seemed to get over it and gave my S the phone to talk. Needless to say I was rather mad that morning after these events.

My W told me when she left she wouldn't be calling since her phone doesn't work there but apparently she bought a go phone there and decides to call early in the morning from a foreign number. Personally she is lucky I answered at 6am in the morning from so weird number. Ok enough on that vent.

I have learned more about my W's deep insecurities from her longtime childhood friend. My W's insecurities are deep rooted and have affected every aspect of her life as I have ponder it. I can trace all the insecurity back to all the various problems with us, her friends, her job, her issue with my sisters, her own family, and many other issues. Don't get me wrong here I know I have my issues that I'm working on but I just didn't know how deep this insecurity problem was with her.

My W has been so insecure that she is constantly trying to fit in with ever person in her life to the point she is constantly changing her mind about what she wants or what she wants to do. She doesn't know who SHE is so she uses other peoples identities and tries to be like them. Her best friend that has known her since 7 said she has always been like this. Her friend also mentioned the hostile environment from her mom that was surprising to me as apparently her mom was always yelling at the kids and I will say my W was surprisingly a yeller as well which scared me especially when were talking about a baby that she was yelling at. Her friend was worried that my W would be hostile like her mom.

In short I really think my W has some major insecurity problems and her coping mechanism has been to run from her problems and shut down. My D papers are nearing its final stages but I'm still learning about my W as this all goes on.

How do you help a person who is so insecure they are not willing to help themselves and just continue to bounce from one friend group or OM to another looking for the next fleeting time of happiness? I wanted to share this as this is what I have learned as of recent.

I will be coaching my S's soccer team tomorrow and throwing his Bday party. Hope to actually hear from someone after this post .

[~ kd ~]

ok SM, I heard your plea...

Just an FYI, you have a path you are on right now and you are sticking to it. If you are stuck, then it will show up and we are more likely to prod you along...

While your W is making some odd choices, such as going on a vacation when it is your son's b-day. that does not necessarily mean it is (a form of) MLC... Maybe there's something to what your W's friend is saying...

If that's the case, then we aren't really dealing with crises... rather with a transition that is still in process (ie. she is "finding" herself) or she might even have some undiagnosed PD...

But while you are searching for a "reason" your W is behaving the way she is, you are loosing focus on what is important as far as DBing is concerned...

That is... finding YOURSELF...

I will opine that you have done some positive work on getting your self and your emotions in order... but you are still wanting to put blame on something...

Whatever "it" is... it is... that is going on with your W...

Let's do a recap, here:

What have you done and how have you become a man that only a fool would leave?

[Snowman]

Thanks for the reply KD.

I will opine that you have done some positive work on getting your self and your emotions in order... but you are still wanting to put blame on something...

I don't want to blame something, I want to understand so I can learn from this.

What have you done and how have you become a man that only a fool would leave?

Valid question. I have been coaching my S's soccer team and games while my W is gone. I have tried to been as nice as possible to my W while making sure not to be a doormat. I have been GALing with friends and working on being more social with coworkers. I have been exercising off and on. I have read working on my marriage without talking about it that has taught me a lot about my situation. I have continued to study stitches on here. I'm going to work on boosting my self confidence as I feel it has been low through this. Thinking about getting my motorcycle license and motorcycle (seems a little MLC but oh well).

Still dealing with lawyers and starting short sale of house along with lots for stress at work as well as my S being very very difficult 3 year old. I'm wore out right now and need some R&R for sure which includes a massage. I need to get positive again and detach more from my situation.

[~ kd ~]

You do sound like you are coming along nicely. Keep moving forward and I am sure that your W will notice and who knows...

I think it's fair of you to say that you are wanting to understand so maybe it seems like you are frustrated and just want to put a label on your W's "condition" and put it away in a box.

As you've likely read, traditional MLC happens in mid life and it includes "crises" (meaning it's not controlled by the individual). A crises can happen at any time and the "condition" is an uncontrolled (life) transition for the individual.

Is your W MLC? I don't know. Nor will you know... I kinda don't think so, but in the same token she may be going through a transition that is... well, a little less than "responsible"...

Here's the thing though... let's say it's just a transition she is going through.

If that transition is interrupted... say by a uncomfortable spouse who attempts to control and otherwise stop the transition... well, this can cause the transition to not be complete... which likely means that the person in transition will have to come around to finishing that "work" in a later transition... can you say "MLC in the making"?

You have to let your W "find" herself. And even though people in transitions can often not realize that they need to stand still to find themselves... it may occur to her that everything she is and everything that she wants is right in front of her...

YOU just need to make sure that WHO she wants... is right in front of her when she stops to look at you...

Make sense?

[25yearsmlc]

Snowman

I think the amount of content you still spend on your wife and your perception of all her flaws, is a waste of time.

You still do it, and you judge her and condemn her and then ask how YOU "can help someone so insecure"...as if that's really your goal.

Your goal was originally for her to realize the error of her ways but you seem more bent on just making her wrong...

like the phone call from London (and the trip iteself which you still gripe about) she was wrong to call on HER time and not on your son's. You were right to say "no" and that's it. But when she tried to call back and it failed, neither of you were at fault but you BOTH blamed the other. She let it go but you are still angry at her...

see any pattern?

It's not your job to fix her or judge her or condemn her or join in with negative discussions about her with long time friends.

The "Friend" was about the church and did she say ANYTHING good about your w or did you only post the negatives?

See none of that helps YOU OR the situation. The minute you realze the only focus of yours ought to be on you

is the minute real growth will happen. I have not seen much.

You say you "are working on your issues' but after that classic deflection (after the pseudo self awareness the words feign)

the very next CLAUSE in that sentence veers back to your favorite topic, her flaws, her blameworthiness, & your apparent powerlessness to change YOUR situation.

Look at how much of what you write is still all about her...and is ANY of it not negative?

I don't buy that you "want to understand" b/c if that were your real goal you'd be wanting to find YOUR OWN ROLE IN THIS

and you'd work on that.

Maybe There's something in you that you do not want to see b /c you sure spend a ton of energy keeping your focus on someone you have zero control over (her)

and none of your energy on the person you have sole control over, which is YOU...

I'm not interested in your w's self proclaimed friend from childhood/the church, who believes your w had abandoned their mutual faith (so that "friend" is not objective)

or your own analysis of your w or her flaws...


I want to know what YOU have learned about YOU....

b/c in the final analysis,

THIS is THE ONLY QUESTION that matters for you & your w...

how would marriage to Snowman, from this day forward,

be better or different than before?

If you/she cannot answer this^^ speciflcally, w/ ways that YOU have improved and changed,

then you cannot expect her to return.

[sayitaintso]

Snowman

I think the amount of content you still spend on your wife and your perception of all her flaws, is a waste of time.

You still do it, and you judge her and condemn her and then ask how YOU "can help someone so insecure"...as if that's really your goal.

The minute you realze the only focus of yours ought to be on you

is the minute real growth will happen. I have not seen much.

I totally agree w/ 25 here Snow. You do not need to spend time or worry about how to help your w. Let her go, that is the only way she will truly find herself.

It took me a long time to get that and I still have some work to do but I have experienced some drastic changes in myself and my w when I truly let go.

This time is for you Snow. This is an opportunity of a life time to really find out what you are all about and to start becoming the man you want to be and have the life you want to have.

Don't waste it!

[FuzzyBear]

Your W's friend's opinion of the situation should only be considered if its helpful to YOUR coping with the situation. If it helps you get over an emotional hump then good.

I had experiences where friends supporting me immensely early in the sitch eventually lost patience. They started to give me reasons why W left for OM and it actually put me in a worse emotional place.

Concentrating on her reasons from a place of blame is not concentrating on YOU. This will not help you move forward towards GAL. Once focus is on you, a much bigger picture will become apparent

[Snowman]

KD-I understand what you are saying. I don't think my W is in a MLC either just a crises. I have not been controlling her in any way that I can think of recent. I know I have posted a lot about my W but I'm not just going to sweep under the rug what I have learned one way another.

I know my issue is control and we have talked about it numerous times on my thread. I have not exerted any control over my W in a while other than when it comes to D paper things.

25yearsmlc- Wowser, I guess I got what I asked for hey . I understand your message on focusing on my W, point taken.

like the phone call from London (and the trip iteself which you still gripe about) she was wrong to call on HER time and not on your son's. You were right to say "no" and that's it. But when she tried to call back and it failed, neither of you were at fault but you BOTH blamed the other. She let it go but you are still angry at her...

When my W called at 6am and I told her to call back she said 1 hr and hung up without me being able to say that would not work for my S or me. I was not exactly coherent at the moment either as the phone woke me up. Anyway a big mis-communication for sure. I'm not mad my W went on the trip in fact I talked about what she was going to do while she was there and told her to have fun as well while she was there. My W very specifically informed me she would not be calling so the whole morning thing threw me for a loop.

The "Friend" was about the church and did she say ANYTHING good about your w or did you only post the negatives?

Yes her friend had positive things to say about my W. They were sole friends for a very long time so I'm not going to brush aside what was said like it is not there. My W even lived with this friend and her family for a while. They were literally like sisters.

I don't buy that you "want to understand" b/c if that were your real goal you'd be wanting to find YOUR OWN ROLE IN THIS

I do want to understand my W's problems but I understand I need to find my role in this and that role was control.

how would marriage to Snowman, from this day forward,

be better or different than before?

The simple answer would be not be controlling. I would not control money like I did before. I would not control her or my activity choices like I did. I would not try to fix her problems for her but just support her and let her figure them out(you will probably say well then stop it). I would not be a fixer which I know I am. I would be more positive and outgoing.

I want to know what YOU have learned about YOU....

I am the type of person that can get analysis paralysis and get indecisive about decisions(not new I guess as I knew this). I have learned that I'm more introvert than extrovert. I learned I care more about what others thought (perception) than what I care about or what is right. I have learned how I can be a better father to my S and have done my best to do so. I have learned how easy it is to be negative .

I know I need to work on and post about my issues. I will work to do that more.
FYI-25yearsmlc-I used your saying Be Happy or be "right" with my MIL. She got the point very quickly.

sayitaintso-I know I need to let go but it is so hard when you have to deal with the spouse in one shape or form all the time. I will work hard to let go. Thanks for the support.

[Snowman]

Update-My W brought me back a t-shirt from London which was a nice surprise. I'm confused by the gesture and I will give my honest opinion that either she felt obligated because I got her something in Hawaii or she just did it because she wanted to, either way it was nice of her and I expressed my appreciation to her for it.

I went to my S's soccer game last week with my W there of course and we somewhat team coached the game. Its an interesting thing to do considering our situation but I try to make the most of it. They had team pics after and I was running around trying to gather the kids and grab stuff for my W. Its weird how we work as a team on the soccer thing and then we just part ways after. I ended up paying for her pics as she forgot her checkbook and told don't worry its not a big deal as she was worried about getting the money back to me.

My birthday was yesterday and my W wished me a Happy Birthday and to have a great day. We ended up texting a bunch about our S after. More nice gestures. I had a great birthday dinner with my family and lunch with co-workers as well.

My W wants to now somehow refinance the house and take me off of it which I don't know how she will but I told her to go for it if she wanted to. The house is really the last piece of our D to figure out.

I feel like I'm just trying to be the best man I can be meanwhile I'm just waiting on the sidelines for my D to be signed and be final. At this point I don't know if I say anything or not or try anything or not? Do I just let things run its course or what?

I feel like I'm at a stand still in my stitch. Just abiding my time. If I do anything external related to her it seems controlling or pressure and if I do nothing I'm just waiting for my W to either keep us in limbo or finish the D. I guess I'm in the status quo I have been in this whole time.

My S misses my W so much and constantly asks about her which has made it harder lately as he is asking more and more as he gets older and older. Darn kid get smarter and smarter everyday when they are this age.

I sit here in anticipation of the responses in my head to this post and think people will say well what is your plan or what are your 180's. My plan at this point is to be the man that no woman would want to leave. That means to no be controlling over things that don't adversely affect me and be the best father to my S I can be. Other than this I don't see what alternatives I have. Is this just still a wait and see deal? I have been biting my tongue about any R talk with my W. I have worked on being more positive in every aspect of life and will continue to do so. Rambling now so I will end.