When it's a one-way street...part 5

[2thepoint]

CV - I don't know if this answers the question but there are many things that I enjoy and would enjoy more if my W would enjoy it with me. Camping, museums, gardens, walks, holding hands, hugs, etc.

There was a period a few years ago when I first lost my job. W and I would go for morning walks and I loved it! Really did! Then it got too hot and humid to go for walks and we stopped. But when the weather cooled down, W refused to go for walks anymore and I grew resentful.

For the long term, I suppose there would need to be some sort of compromise. I do things she enjoys but I don't and she does the same. At least that is how I see things.

[Accuray]

Hi CV,

Glad you had a great weekend! There are many questions wrapped up in there:

1) Why does the woman want her husband to do an activity with her that she knows he doesn't like?

>>I think this has to do with the human tendency to believe that everyone else thinks like we do. The fact that the woman enjoys the activity so much means that certainly her husband will like it too if he just gives it a chance. If she can only open his eyes to how great it is, then he'll enjoy it too and they can enjoy it together, and maybe he'll be grateful to her for introducing this wonderful new experience. I think that's the thinking that leads to this scenario. There are lots of things going on in there both altruistic and selfish, as well as some delusion. I've been victim to this myself, activity X is so great, how could anyone not like it? If they say they don't like it, it's just because they haven't done it in the way that I have, etc. etc.
>>

2) Why can some people enjoy having an uncooperative spouse along, while others feel they're better off alone?

>>"How to Improve Your Marriage Without Talking About It" talked about the fact that men can feel great comfort just knowing you're present. You don't have to be in the same room, you don't have to talk or interact in any way, but knowing you're there is comforting to a man. There's probably some of that going on with your H. He also seems fairly narcissistic which is why your state of mind probably doesn't matter to him. I think this has to do with how wrapped up in yourself you are on one end of the scale, and how codependent you are on the other. A codependent is going to want the other person there no matter what.
>>

3) Why does the LBS want to be with a WAS who clearly has no use for them?

>>There are tons of reasons for this -- I think the initial one is just shock. Yesterday we were fine and today you want me gone. Yesterday I felt good, and today I feel totally rejected and devalued, I want to go back to how I used to feel, and I used to feel that way before you walked away. That's the initial response and it kind of builds on itself from there.

4) If the WAS agrees to stay, why does the LBS believe they'll be happy?

>>I think it's a first step. Longer term, most people are not going to be happy with someone who doesn't want to engage with them. In the near term however, if the WAS won't even be in the same room as the LBS, then agreeing to be in the same room is an improvement.
>>

I'm not a jealous person and I've never fought for any man, or any person for that matter. I just do my best in the R, and if it's not good enough and they're more interested in someone else, I let them go. I feel like I'm loving them more by letting them live for their own happiness, than if I expect them to deny their own happiness in order to provide mine.

I used to feel that way too. After I was cheated on and the bomb was dropped, I felt differently. As a matter of fact, as recently as 2 weeks before the bomb dropped I was thinking that if W would be happier with someone else that would be fine with me, I'd go my own way. That feeling changed after the bomb.

For one thing "the best you can do in the R" is a relative term. Usually you're going to do "just good enough" in a long term relationship, which may be far from your best. Your attitude above is the right one for DB.

Good stuff to think about.

Accuray

[Crazyville]

But when the weather cooled down, W refused to go for walks anymore and I grew resentful.

THIS is exactly what I'm struggling with. Resentful? Is that the right word?

I completely get that people have different interests. It's harder for me to imagine that other people have the SAME interests as me, even common things like gardening, unless I actually know that they do, because of the variety of things out there. Every other day or so, there are 40,000 people in this town that pay money to sit in a hot stadium, eat expensive junk food, and wait in long lines to use dirty restrooms, all for the "fun" of going to a Cardinals ballgame. Me, I prefer to watch on television, if I watch at all. I wouldn't buy a Coach purse if it was on clearance for $5, because I don't like the styles, whereas there are many people that pay over $300. Unless it's illegal or immoral, I'm game with each person living their own life as they see fit.

I don't know how to feel "resentful" because someone isn't doing something for me just because I WANT them to. It's different if they owe me (I worked 8 hours, I expect to get paid for 8 hours.) It's especially foreign to me to expect someone to do something for me when they flat-out don't want to do it. I consider the other person to be an adult that is perfectly capable of making their own decisions, even making their own mistakes, especially on the optional/recreational activities they like. I've even met people that don't like chocolate (GASP!) but I didn't try to convince them otherwise, or slip some chocolate into something they ate. I figured by that point in life, they knew whether or not they liked it. I have boundaries when it comes to doing something "to" me, but not in regards to doing something "for" me. Have I got it wrong? Is this one of those things like ballgames and coach purses where I'm just missing something?

"How to Improve Your Marriage Without Talking About It" talked about the fact that men can feel great comfort just knowing you're present. You don't have to be in the same room, you don't have to talk or interact in any way, but knowing you're there is comforting to a man.

What is the "comfort?" Is it ego? (like I've got me a woman here, even if she despises me, that's okay.) Is it safety (like I'll protect him if an intruder breaks in?) I haven't read that book, but most I've read talk about a man wanting to disappear into his "cave" -- alone. H and I had a discussion about us watching a movie together. He wants to do it, but every single time, he falls asleep and starts snoring 5 minutes into the movie. It is not acceptable to him for me to take the movie and go to another room after he has fallen asleep. I've asked him to explain but I literally get dead silence. Can anyone explain this to me? It comes across to me as very controlling and demeaning. Is this something the guys do when they get together? Say it's for a movie or cards or to watch a game, and then everyone just falls asleep and snores together? Because that's somehow comforting?

I used to feel that way too. After I was cheated on and the bomb was dropped, I felt differently. As a matter of fact, as recently as 2 weeks before the bomb dropped I was thinking that if W would be happier with someone else that would be fine with me, I'd go my own way. That feeling changed after the bomb.

Can I ask, what was the "new" feeling? Why did it change?

I'm sure I'm coming across as frustrated. I'm am, but not at anyone in particular. It just seems so illogical to me, and yet somehow I'm supposed to understand it in a relationship.

[Crazyville]

My frustration, for example. H offers to rent a movie. I say sure, if he stays awake and we can share the experience (as in comment, discuss, laugh, etc.) He says he'll try, but that he's tired and will probably fall asleep (and snore,) but wants to do it anyway. Or more likely, promises to stay awake this time but falls asleep anyway. I say I'll give it until he falls asleep, and then I'm taking the movie to another room. Not acceptable to him.

Confession time... when he falls asleep, I wake him up, repeatedly, scares the crap out of him. I figure I'll annoy him as much as his snoring during the movie annoys me. Plus, there's always the slim chance he'll actually keep his promise and wake up and watch the movie.

Even with this format, he still wants to do it. What am I missing? I'm certainly not enjoying it, so I need to understand what he gets out of it -- in his sleep -- that is so worthwhile? He either can't or won't tell me.

[Accuray]

Unless it's illegal or immoral, I'm game with each person living their own life as they see fit. I don't know how to feel "resentful" because someone isn't doing something for me just because I WANT them to.

If that were truly the case you would have no complaints about your marriage -- you'd just have a "live and let live" attitude unless H was actively abusing you. Many of the comments you've made about your H reflect resentment.

Resentment is a very common if not universal relationship problem. It can spring from matters that are trivial or significant. When I was in college, my male roommate would resent the fact that I would leave the living room in our apartment messy. I wasn't doing that "to" him, and I wasn't not cleaning to spite him, I just wasn't thinking about it at all.

The resentment springs from expectations that are not met. My roommate expected to live in a clean living room. To him, cleaning up was easy, so the fact that I did not clean up, made me an [insert expletive].

I can identify with this from a sex-starved marriage perspective. I wanted to have sex, how difficult is it really for my W to agree to have sex with me? What is she really losing? What is she giving up? Historically I would resent that she would not have sex with me, because it seemed like such a small ask, such a minor inconvenience. Furthermore I felt that I would gladly tolerate much greater inconveniences for her, so it added to the perceived injustice. (I look at this entirely differently now, and we are no longer in a sex-starved marriage, I just share this because I very much understand the roots of resentment).

You don't feel resentment just because someone hasn't done something that you want them to. You feel resentment when a closely held belief or expectation has been violated.

In your case, you believe that it is inappropriate to eat off of someone else's plate in a restaurant without asking. You don't have the attitude that for some people it's perfectly fine and for others not, your belief is that doing that is universally considered rude and inconsiderate. Therefore, when H eats off your plate in a restaurant without asking, you resent him for violating your expectation that your food will be left to you.

What is the "comfort?" Is it ego? (like I've got me a woman here, even if she despises me, that's okay.) Is it safety (like I'll protect him if an intruder breaks in?)

It didn't say where that comfort springs from, it's more something that is programmed-in, like men wanting to feel like good providers, and women wanting to connect through conversation, it's a "Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus" type thing.

The point was that women can feel neglected if you don't talk to them. Men don't feel that way, but they will feel neglected if you're never home.

I've read talk about a man wanting to disappear into his "cave" -- alone.

Yes, the pattern discussed in the book is that a woman who feels neglected will complain or nag in response, looking to get the man to engage. This makes the man feel "shamed" (which the man *really* doesn't like), so his response will be to retreat or withdraw to avoid the shaming. This makes the woman feel even more neglected, so she will complain and nag even more, which makes the man want to avoid her even more, and around you go.

It says that when you shame a man it actually releases cortisol into his brain which triggers a "fight or flight" response and makes him feel physically uncomfortable. He doesn't like that physical feeling, and will actively seek to avoid it, which may mean avoiding you.

Basically, if your H is spending all his time in his "man cave", it's because he assumes that if he approaches you he'll be hit with shaming, and he's doing all he can to avoid that.

H and I had a discussion about us watching a movie together. He wants to do it, but every single time, he falls asleep and starts snoring 5 minutes into the movie. It is not acceptable to him for me to take the movie and go to another room after he has fallen asleep. I've asked him to explain but I literally get dead silence. Can anyone explain this to me? It comes across to me as very controlling and demeaning. Is this something the guys do when they get together? Say it's for a movie or cards or to watch a game, and then everyone just falls asleep and snores together? Because that's somehow comforting?

Ha ha, that has nothing to do with being a man -- my mother does that, my mother-in-law does that, and my wife does it more often than I do. Some "people" (not just men) fall asleep all the time when they try to watch movies at home. I don't understand it at all.

Yes, I would imagine that falling asleep with you there feels very safe and comfortable to him. I can't explain the why.

It's also obvious that you resent him for this -- if you had the "live and let live" attitude you talked about in your post, you'd just turn up the volume and be happy for him, but to you, his behavior seems wrong, because it violates your expectation that if you set out to watch a movie together, then you should actually watch it together, and not instantly fall asleep.

All you can do here is boundary setting -- I will not watch a movie with you if you're going to fall asleep. If you fall asleep, I will take the movie into another room to watch it because your snoring is distracting. If you happen to wake up I will not come back in. At the point you fall asleep, movie night for me is over. That's a boundary you can set, and the consequences have all to do with what YOU will do.

Accuray

[scaredsilly]

accuray, i love reading your posts. they make me a better person!
thank you!

[Crazyville]

You don't feel resentment just because someone hasn't done something that you want them to. You feel resentment when a closely held belief or expectation has been violated.

Resentments can derive from unmet expectations, absolutely. I think my confusion is the basis of the expectation in the first place. There seems to be a lot of resentment that streams from a sense of entitlement, without any sense of responsibility to or agreement from the other person. Like your example of sex. I believe most marriages begin with the belief that both parties will remain faithful. It's likely even specifically discussed before marriage (certainly was with mine.) Therefore, if one of the parties breaches that agreement and has an affair, there will likely be resentment on the part of the other spouse.

However, I doubt there is usually any specific agreement on the frequency of sex before marriage. So when a HD partner is expecting more sex from the LD partner than the LD partner is willing to provide, the expectation isn't based on any verbal agreement, just on an assumption or a sense of entitlement. Or a maybe selfish desire. Therefore, if the HD partner is wanting something more from the LD partner, they should be willing to offer something in exchange, instead of just expecting it "because......???"

When I was in college, my male roommate would resent the fact that I would leave the living room in our apartment messy. I wasn't doing that "to" him, and I wasn't not cleaning to spite him, I just wasn't thinking about it at all.

To the contrary, I believe you were doing something "to" him. Not intentionally, of course, but that's not the point. Your actions had a direct effect on him, the same as if you were swinging your arms and smacked him in the head. Not intentional, but doing it "to" him just the same. Same as my H eating off of MY plate. (Perhaps this is just a semantics issue in our discussion so I don't want to beat it to death.) It would have been a different story if your roommate had an issue that you didn't dust, when you're not personally responsible for creating the dust. For your old roommate, if he couldn't negotiate an agreement with you in which you respected his wishes, his option was to live with someone else, not to force you to change or to build resentment.

The point was that women can feel neglected if you don't talk to them. Men don't feel that way, but they will feel neglected if you're never home.

This is true for women with their friends as well. Is this true with men with their friends? Do men feel neglected by their male friends if they're not sitting silently in the same room? That was my analogy about everyone getting together so they can fall asleep with each other in the room. Somehow that's bonding?

I can identify with this from a sex-starved marriage perspective. I wanted to have sex, how difficult is it really for my W to agree to have sex with me? What is she really losing? What is she giving up? Historically I would resent that she would not have sex with me, because it seemed like such a small ask, such a minor inconvenience. Furthermore I felt that I would gladly tolerate much greater inconveniences for her, so it added to the perceived injustice. (I look at this entirely differently now, and we are no longer in a sex-starved marriage, I just share this because I very much understand the roots of resentment).

How do you feel differently now? I know your sitch, just specific to this?

In your case, you believe that it is inappropriate to eat off of someone else's plate in a restaurant without asking. You don't have the attitude that for some people it's perfectly fine and for others not, your belief is that doing that is universally considered rude and inconsiderate. Therefore, when H eats off your plate in a restaurant without asking, you resent him for violating your expectation that your food will be left to you.

No, I could care less who does it, until the food is picked off of MY plate. If a couple joins us and they do it to each other, it doesn't bother me at all. If they picked off mine, that would be a problem for me.

Basically, if your H is spending all his time in his "man cave", it's because he assumes that if he approaches you he'll be hit with shaming, and he's doing all he can to avoid that.

Yes, I get that. My H is not doing that. He wants me in the same room, while he's sleeping. It would be fine with me if he was in his man-cave and I could just be in "the same house" in the other room watching my movie snore-free without complaint from him.

Yes, I would imagine that falling asleep with you there feels very safe and comfortable to him. I can't explain the why.

Bummer, I wish you could. I find it rather distracting and would prefer he not be in the same room. So who gets their way?

It's also obvious that you resent him for this -- if you had the "live and let live" attitude you talked about in your post, you'd just turn up the volume and be happy for him, but to you, his behavior seems wrong, because it violates your expectation that if you set out to watch a movie together, then you should actually watch it together, and not instantly fall asleep.

I only have the expectation because that's what he tells me he will do. Just like the fidelity. If he said he was going to fall asleep, I wouldn't have the expectation. And I wouldn't agree to "watch" the movie with him in the first place. I can put out the boundaries just as you said, in fact I have. H has an issue with it. That's the only reason it came up, because H doesn't accept my boundaries.

Thanks for your responses, Accuray. I'm afraid I'm coming off as argumentative. I'm not trying to be, just thinking outloud. Er... in writing. For me, it boils down to how to resolve conflict. We don't seem to have that capacity.

[scaredsilly]

maybe you should pick your battles?

[Crazyville]

Trying to figure out how....

[scaredsilly]

identify your own annoying habits. everyone has them. practice letting go and accepting. balance what is good against what is not so good. work on yourself instead of others. lower your standards. maybe they're too high or unrealistic?