Going around in circles

[angel61]

Happy Mothers Day to everyone.....

Tomorrow, H and his three buddies will cook brunch for their wives, while we go have a pedicure.

Yes, I am so lucky and am enjoying every minute of the good times.....

And hoping and praying that they last.

[angel61]

Good time to reflect on my Mom .... mother's day indeed!!!

In my country of origin,we tend to be more matriarchal. My mom is typically a strong woman, very intelligent, an MD as well, and all my life I had a sense of her frustration at being tied down by motherhood and an unhappy M as well. She never was really maternal, did not breastfeed (eew!), me and my sibs were brought up by nannies. Not unusual in our culture. She valued her freedom, but conversely, depended on my dad for the daily grind. My dad on the other hand was the steady one, but not affectionate. My mom craved affection but I think not being used to it, she was awkward in showing it to us kids, and her attitude towards us was a little confusing. As a result, we were distant from our parents, seeing them as authority figures, and not touchy feely. I leraned to be independent pretty early as I was in boarding school at the age of 12.

I had resolved to take the good things she taught (that women can be achievers, that we should not be dependent on a man for our money) and change the things I felt were not right (the lack of affection in our lives).

However, I now see myself going that same path as she did!

25, see what you think of that.....

On another note: Thank you for seeing the effort my H does. I thought a lot about that, seeing that other posters here seem to think he should be doing more, that I should be expecting more.

I don't know if its because what you say is what I also believe in, but it does resonate with me. I had been thinking that in our situation, laying down boundaries and ultimatums at this point will only lead us to separate, as the way my H will see it is that he has tried so hard but has never been able to make me happy. His problem is that he had such a sense of failure that he does not think that anything he does will work. Come to think of it, he had said before, a long time ago "if only you could have been happy with what we had then,things would be better" and its true, I do examine every little flaw, because I do not want to go down the path that my mom's M took.

But now, I think I will stop all this examining and analyzing and thinking, and will try to keep my mind and heart quiet, allow myself to appreciate the good times.

We did have a good Mothers day celebration. H over-exerted himself by cooking a 4 course meal, with all the best ingredients - lobster, crab and filet mignon.... he apologized for not buying a gift and I said his efforts were worth more than any store bought gift. There were a couple of times that he had small flare-ups of anger but I just ignored them.

He now left for xOW's country for work but I do not feel threatened at all, nor worried. I will really just take this day by day from now on.

[Cyrena]

Angel,

It's not uncommon to find, as adults, that we are replicating the positions we saw our parents in as children, even when at the time we were aware of and rejected their limitations. It's a matter of settling into the grooves that seem "familiar" to us, so that we don't notice at first how much pain they cause. Still, the first step in creating change is to become aware of our unconscious patterns of recreating what we've known. And I hope your H is beginning to realize the degree to which he's done the same....

Your Mother's day feast sounds amazing! Good work on ignoring the anger and on remaining detached no matter where your H is travelling to.

[angel61]

I have been mulling over the events of our “rock bottom week”, that painful last week of April, and here are some of my insights on what happened, and why I feel so much better now.

It was during this week that H was able to say all the things that he felt would really hurt me. He had carried those words around in heart for the longest time, afraid that they would send me over the edge. I had always sensed that he was holding back, and finally, he was no longer able to, because I had to keep on asking.

We have always been going by the rule of no R talk precisely for the reason that good things will probably not be said in this kind of situation. And this is well and good especially for newbies, for those whose anger is just simmering beneath the surface. Whose emotions are too raw, and especially for those WAS who are still in the justification stage and the LBS in the newly bombed, despairing stage. At that point, full disclosure is probably dangerous.

However, in the long run, we all need to know the story. In Retrouvaille, we are encouraged to write our story and look into ourselves and see what caused this all.

In our case, it did hurt, and I reacted predictably with so much grief, with wanting to hold on to the story I had made especially with our attempt at R, the expectations that things would be better.

And truly, what did I learn? Nothing new really, as my H had tried telling me all of those at various times but I refused to listen or accept the whole story. But this time, when my H explained everything one last time, I did see that our M never got the chance to grow to be what it should be because of me. I realized that I just barely waited for the ink to dry on our marriage contract when I started making demand and having expectations, just because I DID NOT WANT OUR M TO END UP LIKE THAT OF MY PARENTS.

We started out as best friends. My H truly believed at that point that we loved each other, but not with the romantic love idealized in books and movies. We never had much PDA, but we did respect each other and worked well together.

Then I started to expect too much, demand too much, control our lives. My H did everything he could to make me happy, but I never was content, as 25 says. I examined everything for flaws. Progressively my H became more and more unhappy, that he started fantazising leaving us, and started getting attracted to women at work, women who were mostly “princesses”, not aggressive or assertive like me. He never did have any real affairs, but was generally friendly with a lot of women, and I am guessing he had some level of emotional connection with probably a couple of them, but not to the level of an EA. But because of his love for D, and especially because of D’s physical (asthma) and emotional (anxiety disorder) problems, he never really seriously considered leaving.

All of this came to a head with onset of his MLC, and his meeting the OW who reciprocated, thus leading to an EA. The rest of the story is chronicled in this website.

But as the story winds down, the EA is over, OW is back in her home country, and not only that, I recently learned that she now has someone new….

Its back to me and H. And now, with the whole story told, I am dusting myself off and realizing that I am still whole. That I have been through the fire and have made it through. That it was not as bad as I thought. That there is still hope.

And I think, so does H.

Its not about setting boundaries, nor about transparency, nor about building up the M.

It goes way back, like a new start. Tentatively, we are taking small steps outwards, into a new world.

I no longer feel burdened by what ifs, by regret, by blame, by possibilities.

I don’t even feel that we have to have our M intact. What will be, will be. We are restarting our relationship, and if it will not work, then thats it. If it does, then great. But it no longer is what will drive my everyday actions, occupy my thoughts.

The burden of making every day decisions, big and small, now matter more again, and I no longer feel that there is an invisible white elephant in the room, which used to be the “problem”.

Its like life is settling back into the humdrum existence that it used to be.

But it is the most wonderful feeling in the world.

[Ctflor]

Hi Angel, hope you had a good mother's day

Some of the problems that precipitated H's ea was my complaining. I related to your post a lot.

[Starsky309]

I have been mulling over the events of our “rock bottom week”, that painful last week of April, and here are some of my insights on what happened, and why I feel so much better now.

It was during this week that H was able to say all the things that he felt would really hurt me. He had carried those words around in heart for the longest time, afraid that they would send me over the edge. I had always sensed that he was holding back, and finally, he was no longer able to, because I had to keep on asking.

We have always been going by the rule of no R talk precisely for the reason that good things will probably not be said in this kind of situation. And this is well and good especially for newbies, for those whose anger is just simmering beneath the surface. Whose emotions are too raw, and especially for those WAS who are still in the justification stage and the LBS in the newly bombed, despairing stage. At that point, full disclosure is probably dangerous.

However, in the long run, we all need to know the story. In Retrouvaille, we are encouraged to write our story and look into ourselves and see what caused this all.

In our case, it did hurt, and I reacted predictably with so much grief, with wanting to hold on to the story I had made especially with our attempt at R, the expectations that things would be better.

And truly, what did I learn? Nothing new really, as my H had tried telling me all of those at various times but I refused to listen or accept the whole story. But this time, when my H explained everything one last time, I did see that our M never got the chance to grow to be what it should be because of me. I realized that I just barely waited for the ink to dry on our marriage contract when I started making demand and having expectations, just because I DID NOT WANT OUR M TO END UP LIKE THAT OF MY PARENTS.

We started out as best friends. My H truly believed at that point that we loved each other, but not with the romantic love idealized in books and movies. We never had much PDA, but we did respect each other and worked well together.

Then I started to expect too much, demand too much, control our lives. My H did everything he could to make me happy, but I never was content, as 25 says. I examined everything for flaws. Progressively my H became more and more unhappy, that he started fantazising leaving us, and started getting attracted to women at work, women who were mostly “princesses”, not aggressive or assertive like me. He never did have any real affairs, but was generally friendly with a lot of women, and I am guessing he had some level of emotional connection with probably a couple of them, but not to the level of an EA. But because of his love for D, and especially because of D’s physical (asthma) and emotional (anxiety disorder) problems, he never really seriously considered leaving.

All of this came to a head with onset of his MLC, and his meeting the OW who reciprocated, thus leading to an EA. The rest of the story is chronicled in this website.

But as the story winds down, the EA is over, OW is back in her home country, and not only that, I recently learned that she now has someone new….

Its back to me and H. And now, with the whole story told, I am dusting myself off and realizing that I am still whole. That I have been through the fire and have made it through. That it was not as bad as I thought. That there is still hope.

And I think, so does H.

Its not about setting boundaries, nor about transparency, nor about building up the M.

It goes way back, like a new start. Tentatively, we are taking small steps outwards, into a new world.

I no longer feel burdened by what ifs, by regret, by blame, by possibilities.

I don’t even feel that we have to have our M intact. What will be, will be. We are restarting our relationship, and if it will not work, then thats it. If it does, then great. But it no longer is what will drive my everyday actions, occupy my thoughts.

The burden of making every day decisions, big and small, now matter more again, and I no longer feel that there is an invisible white elephant in the room, which used to be the “problem”.

Its like life is settling back into the humdrum existence that it used to be.

But it is the most wonderful feeling in the world.

Wow. Am I the only one that's lost?

"The story winds down?" Your husband's infidelity is over? It's not about boundaries??

What did I miss??

[25yearsmlc]

I have been mulling over the events of our “rock bottom week”, that painful last week of April, and here are some of my insights on what happened, and why I feel so much better now.

if it helps you to "mull" over your "rock bottom week" and does NOT seem to simply be a re-hashing of painful moments, then so be it.

But beware it's usually counter productive and Angel, though you know i support you - it does seem to me that you create a lot of the problems in the m. Not your h. You even admit your d might be better off with h b/c I guess he's less moody and depressive? Hey, friend, that is not his fault.

Starsky may see it as black and white b/c your h had an EA - but from where I sit,

your fears of having your parents' marriage somehow lead you create that very thing, and it is what YOU created...a

nd what you and your h both did NOT want. So , he's owned up to his part and seems to be changing...

are you?

It was during this week that H was able to say all the things that he felt would really hurt me. He had carried those words around in heart for the longest time, afraid that they would send me over the edge. I had always sensed that he was holding back, and finally, he was no longer able to, because I had to keep on asking.

why did you keep asking him that?

We have always been going by the rule of no R talk precisely for the reason that good things will probably not be said in this kind of situation. And this is well and good especially for newbies, for those whose anger is just simmering beneath the surface. Whose emotions are too raw, and especially for those WAS who are still in the justification stage and the LBS in the newly bombed, despairing stage. At that point, full disclosure is probably dangerous.

However, in the long run, we all need to know the story. In Retrouvaille, we are encouraged to write our story and look into ourselves and see what caused this all.

Retrovaille WAS the place for it, and the place to put it to rest. Did it happen there or not? I'm confused.

In our case, it did hurt, and I reacted predictably with so much grief, with wanting to hold on to the story I had made especially with our attempt at R, the expectations that things would be better.

And truly, what did I learn? Nothing new really, as my H had tried telling me all of those at various times but I refused to listen or accept the whole story. But this time, when my H explained everything one last time, I did see that our M never got the chance to grow to be what it should be because of me.

ALARM BELLS.....IF THIS IS TRUE, THEN PROCESS IT AND CHANGE....please check into Essential Experience website for their workshops b/c you'd benefit so much by it. Go on your own and let your h go on his own...so much more "efficient" to do a 4 day program with a doable action plan, than endlessly rehashing this...



I realized that I just barely waited for the ink to dry on our marriage contract when I started making demand and having expectations, just because I DID NOT WANT OUR M TO END UP LIKE THAT OF MY PARENTS.


and yet, when our fears get too much power over us, they OFTEN lead us into creating the very event we fear so much.

Hence conflict avoidant people discovering their avoidance only leads to MORE serious conflict ultimately,

than resolving smaller matters as they arise...might

We started out as best friends. My H truly believed at that point that we loved each other, but not with the romantic love idealized in books and movies. We never had much PDA, but we did respect each other and worked well together.

Then I started to expect too much, demand too much, control our lives. My H did everything he could to make me happy, but I never was content, as 25 says. I examined everything for flaws. Progressively my H became more and more unhappy, that he started fantazising leaving us, and started getting attracted to women at work, women who were mostly “princesses”, not aggressive or assertive like me. He never did have any real affairs, but was generally friendly with a lot of women, and I am guessing he had some level of emotional connection with probably a couple of them, but not to the level of an EA. But because of his love for D, and especially because of D’s physical (asthma) and emotional (anxiety disorder) problems, he never really seriously considered leaving.

All of this came to a head with onset of his MLC, and his meeting the OW who reciprocated, thus leading to an EA. The rest of the story is chronicled in this website.

But as the story winds down, the EA is over, OW is back in her home country, and not only that, I recently learned that she now has someone new….

Its back to me and H. And now, with the whole story told, I am dusting myself off and realizing that I am still whole. That I have been through the fire and have made it through. That it was not as bad as I thought. That there is still hope.

And I think, so does H.

well then, I say "thank GOD!"

Its not about setting boundaries, nor about transparency, nor about building up the M.

It goes way back, like a new start. Tentatively, we are taking small steps outwards, into a new world.

I no longer feel burdened by what ifs, by regret, by blame, by possibilities.

that's^^ needed & helpful

I don’t even feel that we have to have our M intact. What will be, will be. We are restarting our relationship, and if it will not work, then thats it. If it does, then great. But it no longer is what will drive my everyday actions, occupy my thoughts.

soooo...you are detaching more & obsessing less?

Ever wonder what your mom was like inside her m?

The burden of making every day decisions, big and small, now matter more again, and I no longer feel that there is an invisible white elephant in the room, which used to be the “problem”.

Its like life is settling back into the humdrum existence that it used to be.

But it is the most wonderful feeling in the world.

In short, be here now. As an MD, you surely know the frailty of life and how it can end w/o warning or good byes.

Why not enjoy the days you are given?

[Starsky309]

25,

I don't see Angel's marital dysfunction as entirely her husband's fault, or even her husband's infidelity being the root cause of their issues. (It is, however, their most immediate OBSTACLE, in my opinion).

My point was that Angel seems to swing wildly from depressive despair, to poetic euphoria, without any real evidence that anything substantial has changed. She operates largely based on her FEELINGS, and I'm trying to encourage her to get more "even-keeled," if you will, and to learn to place some healthy boundaries in her life as it relates to her husband's treatment of her.

I am almost certain that he too has some marital complaints -- some valid, I'm sure, and some not. But since Angel is the one that posts here, I try to focus on her, and what screams out at me is an inability to enforce ANY kind of healthy boundaries with her husband. She seems to filter everything as:

"He's nice to me" = MARRIAGE GOOD

"He's mean to me" = MARRIAGE BAD


, and accept crumbs from him. I think she deserves more -- despite her imperfections -- and am trying to exhort her to expect more.


Starsky

[angel61]

Gosh, you guys are really taking each sentence to mean like I am having mood swings while writing it!!!! Can't a person look back and summarize without being judged???? I was just writing about my insights as a result of that bad week!!!!!

Starsky, yes, you are so lost. As they always say in this boards, the OW/OM/OP is a band aid. The M has a rotting, festering wound and one of the partners think that an OP can fix it. So what does everyone say here? BE THE PERSON YOUR SPOUSE WOULD BE A FOOL TO LEAVE!!!!!! Again, thats a process. I am not yet done changing myself into that person. I had some major backslides, but I don't regret them cause they made me have some more insight about our marriage

Don't get me wrong, I appreciate your concern and am glad that you think I deserve more, because every person does deserve love and respect and loyaty.

But what 25 is saying that much of what I thought were H's flaws were because I MADE THEM SO. In other words, I was blind to his efforts. AND SHE IS SO RIGHT!!!!! I NOW GET IT!!!! HE HAS BEEN TRYING, AND YET I DID NOT SEE IT, WANTED IT MY WAY, PUSHED HIM TO CHANGE MY WAY, AND WORSE, TRIED TO GET HIM TO CHANGE EVEN BEFORE MY CHANGES WERE IN PLACE!!!!

25, in my previous post I just was writing about taking your advice and seeing MY flaws instead of blaming H. yes, I have changed, and continue to do so, and as everyone knows, no one can turn on a dime and so every new event, every mistake, every step forward is a change!!!! Its a work in progress!!!!YOU WANT ME TO LIST MY CHANGES??? HERE THEY ARE, I WANT YOU TO KNOW THAT MANY OF THIS CHANGES WERE BECAUSE OF YOUR POSTS TO ME, BUT AGAIN, I WANT YOU TO KNOW THAT I AM NOT DONE YET, AND PROBABLY NEVER WILL BE....

1. I HAVE LOST THE ANGER, MOST OF IT, AND MOST ESPECIALLY, THE MANIFESTATIONS OF IT TO H - I am just human and sometimes do backslide, but it has become less and less.

2. STOPPED BEING A CONTROLLING PERSON, EXPECTING THE MARRIAGE TO GO THE WAY I WANT IT,

3. I HAVE STARTED LISTENING, REALLY LISTENING

4. LEARNING TO LOOK INTO THE MIRROR AND OWNING UP MY OWN MISTAKES

and others....The others I know you have seen and acknowledged in my previous post. And regarding Retrouvaille, you know that at the end of the posts we START writing our story, and they (the leaders) say that it is a process that could go on for months or even years, as it is part of self discovery. It does not happen at retrouvaille, it happens in our MINDS, and happens over TIME. And it may be painful, but it is needed for closure, for us to understand that what we did is wrong. And that is what precisely was happening to me and H. During the post we missed that we attended during that fateful week, he shared with the group that the good thing that he learned at Retrouvaille was that finally, we were starting to open up and really see what led our marriage to go bad.

Back to Starsky .... at this fragile time in our M, when we are both just opening our eyes to the reality of our failures, and starting to acccept them, do you think it is a time to forge committments once again?

And I think we should not harp at timelines here..... it does not really matter to me how long it takes, as we have all the time in the world.... the rest of our lives, to figure this out.

[Starsky309]

Angel, I'm sorry if I upset you. Most people come here looking to be challenged, since if what they were doing was working, they wouldn't be here. I'm not big on the ol' ((((((angel!))))) hugs thing, and I call things as I see them. I post to a lot of different people, on this and another forum, and so sometimes my posts are more blunt than I would say them if I were speaking to you in person.

Yes, you can of course vent here, but you also have to expect that people are going to respond to you, based on what you post. I could go back and show you the pattern . . . the "cycle," as it were, to your swings . . . but I don't want to upset you further.

But for the record, YES, I do believe that the "recommitment" part comes FIRST, yes I do. I'm a big believer in the "Love is a Decision" thing that they teach at Retrouvaille, and I do think that two people can -- AND SHOULD -- expect that from each other, even as they then should expect that the PROCESS, and their feelings for each other, may take months or even several YEARS to improve. I don't see your husband making that commitment, nor do I see you insisting upon it, and I think as long as you are happy when "things seem to be going okay," I think your husband will continue to be very skilled at learning how to push just enough of those buttons to keep you where he wants you.

Just my opinion (although Walking and some others have posted similar things to you as well).


Starsky