Going around in circles

[angel61]

New thread for me..... I was planning to leave piecing to go back to MLC, but after seeing everyone's comments about being in this for 4 years, 5 years, etc. I decided to keep thinking positive and stay here.

I titled my new thread going around in circles (I originally thought I would name it something about holding patterns, but I thought that would mean not much movement....) because I noted that I am back full circle, re-planning my new DB strategy on a different level, but being reminded by the vets about not begging, pleading, detaching, boundaries, etc.

Talk to you later everyone!!!!

[angel61]

So I just got back from a 4 day trip, and because my flight was delayed, got home past midnight. I was creeping through the garage door, trying to be quiet, when:

H (standing at the bottom step) : Have you eaten?
Me:(surprised to death) You still awake?
H: No, I woke up when I heard the garage (yeah right. his hair is not even messed up yet. Admit you were up waiting for me!)
Me: No, I haven't eaten yet
H: C'mon, I made some dinner and its still warm (proceeds to lead me to kitchen and serve me food)

Oh well, I take good times when they come!

No expectations.....

[Ctflor]

I was thinking about something I came across the other day when I was writing about my marriage. And I want to share this with you.

“
Immature people falling in love destroy each other’s freedom, create a bondage, make a prison. Mature persons in love help each other to be free; they help each other to destroy all sorts of bondages. And when love flows with freedom there is beauty. When love flows with dependence there is ugliness." - Osho

When I read this at first, I could feel myself bristle. I don't like the idea of letting something that I love go. Maybe at some point I held on too tightly and I was not allowing love to be free between my h and I. It's like a beautiful butterfly landing in the palm of your hand, and you close it your fingers around it so it won't fly away, but what ends up happening is, the butterfly is smashed and can no longer fly at all.

I didn't want to create a sense of bondage with my husband and I, but I wanted a bond. One of the hardest things I went through was letting him go so he could make the choice. At the time I was struggling with symptoms of my disease, and he was afraid to leave. I had to stand up anyway and be strong and let him know that I was, and that way he could make the choice based on his heart and not his fears of what would become of me should he go.

I did not want a partner to stay with me out of fear of what would become of me either. That's bondage and that's not a love that moves freely between us.

At the end, it was scary for me to say "Okay, then go", and "I will be just fine, I have plans". I didn't think there was going to be any peace in letting go, but there was.

When he decided to come back to me, I knew 100 % certain he was coming back because he loved me, not because he pitied me.

Didn't mean to hijack your thread..... just wanted to share some of those thoughts.

(((((((((Angel)))))))))

[angel61]

Thank you Ctflor. It’s a beautiful insight, and an ideal we should all strive for.

We all hear about this in many words – letting go, detachment, unconditional love….. These all are concepts framed around freedom. We all strive for the high road, for the ideal situation. I think most of the time though we fall short, because of our human nature and the nature of the beast – by that I mean relationship problems.

Think about it: Relationships and freedom, by definition, are not really that compatible.

Relationships, no matter what kind, have some form of bondage built into them. The meaning of the word itself means a bond between two objects or beings. It is the willingness to be in one, to care for another, to be considerate, to listen when you have other things to do, that we have to make a choice on, thus that is the “freedom” we talk about. Even the idea of boundaries is puts a bond on the relationship. Practically speaking, raising a family and being parents means a degree of dependence on each other, and maybe our children being dependent on both of parents for different needs. Boundaries mean that we will only move within that defined circle to keep a relationship going.

Many of these dependencies are not absolute, but are meaningful. And if need be, one can exist without them, so it doesn’t mean to say that if a situation where really hurtful or harmful, that we will stubbornly insist that we have to keep the relationship.

For example: As a parent, I am the friend, the mentor, the creative one. My H is the caregiver, the disciplinarian, and the structured and consistent parent.

My D, for all of her 13 years, sees all of that. She opens her heart to me, we talk deeply, we have fun together. She is very close to her Dad too – she goes to him when I am being flaky, I can see how she finds so much solace and comfort in his steadiness.

And just like my D, I lean on my H to bring stability to my life, he enjoys the fun I bring to his.

Once, we were talking, and she was telling me how we both complete the picture for her, and how she would miss me so much, our talks, our fun times, but how she also pictures her dad more as a parent, but who would stifle her creativity and fun times!

So, it will always be painful to face the prospect of losing all of that. Even if say, one anticipated such a loss, I don’t think anyone could just immediately smile and not go through the stages of grief.

For some of us who have been in this situation for a long time, but especially for those who are still living with their MLC’ers or WAS, we probably experience this loss over and over again. Bomb drop. Discovering an OP. Reconciling, only to have them backslide.

I think of how many times I had thought I had detached, let go, then get reeled in again, start expecting. Then Bam! The other shoe drops. Let go, detach. Sometimes it’s a stepwise process. So far, mostly going down. And each time, there is another going through the stages of grief.

Maybe practice will make perfect???? For my latest loss, which I would say is the loss of hope that my H still loves me, the stages went by fast, although they were intense. I think right now I am already in acceptance, and feeling zen about it.

[Ctflor]

I think in my situation, with my M, there was a difference between having a bond with my H, and holding him in bondage.

If he walked around feeling guilty about leaving me because of something happening to me, then I'm holding him in bondage. He's not here because he wants to be, he's here because he is worried something bad will happen to me.

I want my H to be with me because he sees me as his equal, his partner, his lover, etc. Not a weak woman who will die without him. If I chose to present myself as a weakened woman with MS who cannot live on my own, then I hold him in bondage to me.

As terrified as I was inside to let him walk out that door, I had to give him his freedom and let him decide. And I was horribly afraid that he was going to do just that. He was ready to go, he had a list going of things he was going to handle, with our property, our bank account, etc.

After holding on so tightly, I realized in September that holding tight was going to crush him. I had to gather my strength and tell him that he can go and that I will be OK without him.

I started back to college, started doing so much GAL that he was like a window shopper, standing on the outside of the window peering in, watching my life go forward.

As soon as I detached, he did not know what to do. When I got off of his crazy train and let him ride it alone, then all his emotions, pain, and decisions rested on him and he began to see his life without me and our D.

[Cyrena]

Angel,

I wonder whether you've ever come across Al Turtle's writings about marriage? He has an extended essay, "The Map of Relationships," available on his website, which explains more fully than anything else I've ever read where relationships go wrong, why people divorce, and what a truly healthy M looks like.

I think that considering his insights might bring you to a new perspective about bonds, dependence, etc, in a M.

You stated, "Boundaries mean that we will only move within that defined circle to keep a relationship going." I tend to think of boundaries, rather, as being for each individual, and maintaining ones own boundaries as being more important than pleasing someone else. If your partner cannot accept your boundaries, then you're diminishing yourself by settling for less to maintain a R. Relationships and freedom, ideally, should be perfectly compatible.

I know you're identified yourself as going around in circles, or getting caught in a pattern of loss & acceptance that's "so far mostly going down," but I see it more as an uphill movement--you've grown so much in strength and wisdom. Al Turtle also points out that people only learn to change through suffering ... which makes our position here, in a weird way, a kind of gift.

[angel61]

HI Cyrena,

I did check out Al Turtles website and so far what I've seen is good!

University of Life indeed.....the cheekiness of it made me laugh!We are enrolled in that, for sure, but flunking too many courses.... on an extended Spring Break right now....

When I say going downhill, I meant more about my M in general, but I do take that back.The downhill is relative, it just meant that finally we have aired all our dirty laundry and perhaps, we are growing and getting ready to move in another direction. and its true, all this has made me wiser, stronger, more spiritual, more patient, able to hold my tongue, lose the anger, gain perpsective in live, become less selfish, and all those are uphill ovements. I did not mean to generalize, and I think thats the danger in this posts, we only tend to see the topic of the moment.

Boundaries.... I have never been into that all my life, my boundaries tend to be arbitrary and moveable. If there is a way to live in a reasonable manner then I am open to that. I believe that there are many ways to be happy, and not necessarily right to everyone else but right for you, and I am open to that.

So I still cannot grasp this, nor do I know how to apply this to my life. Is it something like writing an SOP????

Then I do an audit, and even if I am happy, he is happy, D is happy, if ourlife did not meet my criteria then its goodbye? I don't know about that.

25 used to say, do you want to be right, or happy?

Circling......

[angel61]

And I am not holding tightly, I just want to make sure that if we did have to part ways, that we do it at the right time. And with the least aolunt of damage.

[angel61]

amount of damage.... to both of us and to our D.

Honestly, in the past I have had to battle myself with wanting to just want to bail out - leave, go back to my profession, even just leave D behind with him.

There is so much I can do by myself. Pick up from where I left off in my career and profession.

I was doing so well when I married H.... I married late, at the age of 36, because I was so busy with my career of being an MD ...I was already the chairperson of a hospital department I built up by myself, well on my way up to being a very successful surgeon in my country. I was actually H's mentor, as he was a resident in training when we met, and I was an attending physician. I gave it all up to join him here in the US and stayed on here for the family's sake. I am doing well in my job here but its not the same as practicing my profession. many times I look back and wish for the prestige, the respect I had, of being my own boss, not having to work for others.

I think its that sense of having given up so much in my life, especially since not too many women had reached my level of success at an early age, that makes me act the way I do. Also, since I have been succesful at attaining most of my career goals, I perhaps cannot accept that I may fail at this, the most important achievement of my life.

One thing though I have learned is that waht works for me in my career does not necessarily work for my M.

Anyways, all of this are just musings for now.

In reality, we have been doing quite well for the past few days. H has been really nice to me, friendly, and I think he knows that finally, my expectations of him and of the relationship is down to 0, and it has relieved him of his burden. Perhaps that means we can start over again? He is being so nice that I am almost afraid to speak with him....

[25yearsmlc]

amount of damage.... to both of us and to our D.

Honestly, in the past I have had to battle myself with wanting to just want to bail out - leave, go back to my profession, even just leave D behind with him.

There is so much I can do by myself. Pick up from where I left off in my career and profession.

I was doing so well when I married H.... I married late, at the age of 36, because I was so busy with my career of being an MD ...I was already the chairperson of a hospital department I built up by myself, well on my way up to being a very successful surgeon in my country. I was actually H's mentor, as he was a resident in training when we met, and I was an attending physician. I gave it all up to join him here in the US and stayed on here for the family's sake. I am doing well in my job here but its not the same as practicing my profession. many times I look back and wish for the prestige, the respect I had, of being my own boss, not having to work for others.

I think its that sense of having given up so much in my life, especially since not too many women had reached my level of success at an early age, that makes me act the way I do. Also, since I have been succesful at attaining most of my career goals, I perhaps cannot accept that I may fail at this, the most important achievement of my life.


all of this is your old stuff that you are still angry about. What's up with that Angel? Let it go already.

Don't misunderstand, I KNOW it's huge and I get it. I feel similar things...but it's over now. YOu cannot redo the past and it's partly or probably b/c of this choice you even have a d.

My real question is, what do you want to do about something you cannot now change? how about letting it go for real?

From where I sit your h sounds like he's making efforts and you are standing there examining the efforts for flaws...why? Why not choose to be happy?

What happened that makes YOU slide backwards?

See, I am not getting it from him but from you...



One thing though I have learned is that waht works for me in my career does not necessarily work for my M.

Anyways, all of this are just musings for now.

In reality, we have been doing quite well for the past few days. H has been really nice to me, friendly, and I think he knows that finally, my expectations of him and of the relationship is down to 0, and it has relieved him of his burden. Perhaps that means we can start over again? He is being so nice that I am almost afraid to speak with him....

Fear not. Embrace the good times. Be here now. No more brooding!

Happy Mother's Day....

remember you are teaching your d how SHE can be happy in her life.

What was your mom like in this regard?

Can you do things differently for your d?

(Yes you can AND you can celebrate that too!)