Drop the arrogance. If you were an all-seeing expert you would not be where you are now.
"perhaps it doesn't deserve much merit as it may all be conjecture on my part"
Yep.
"What can I do to help ease these feelings about her father/men issues,"
Be supportive of her efforts to be a happy whole person by herself rather than one reliant on father/men.
" and distance myself from this past."
Treat her differently consistently for a long time.
" It is clear she is willing to "forgive me" about saying bad things about our M,"
Why quotes around "forgive me"?
" and I do believe the OW is not much of an issue for her as she's said she's no one to judge (although it might be if she needs to use something against me, I guess, but she has said we were separated, so water under the bridge)."
You'd be wrong. She might not blame you, but any infidelity is deeply painful, hurtful, damaging. Moreover, you've pretty much told her your EA is your dream woman who shows you how much W is lacking. There is no way she is over that. There is no way that is "not much of an issue." Do you really think that your pain about OM is that W lied to you??? No, it is her physical and emotional interaction with someone else that she wanted MORE than you, that made you seem lacking to her. There is little difference in THAT part of the emotional pain that your involvement with OP caused to each other.
It is really sad to see you so willing to dismiss her pain there and you are probably not giving her space to feel it and acknowledge it as you feel so damn justified in your EA all you seem able to do is DEFEND it and minimize the effects it continues to have on you, W, and your M.
I suggest you try to minimize the difference in your own mind between your As and W's A. MOST of the stuff that matters from this point forward is the SAME. Own it. Have compassion and love for W's pain, insecurity, etc... that WILL be there as a result of your OWs and the cavalier way you are treating the fallout of your Rs with the OWs.
" But, what I do believe is, she is NOT willing to forgive me for doing to her, what she sees is the same thing all the other important men in her life have done - for letting her down. "
What takes time is rebuilding trust. And it will simply take time.
"I suspect, up until a few months ago, I had continued to prove her right with my actions, but I also feel this is a tremendous responsibility for me to carry, just as it was unfair for her to be sole keeper of our R. I feel that is the one issue that will keep her from reengaging. "
Maybe so. That is really her stuff. Stay out of it. You might express your feelings to her: "I'm scared that unless I am always perfect that I will let you down." Or whatever. But REPORT about yourself, don't diagnose and judge her.
"I hear her talk about how she doesn't really need a man and is accepting of flying solo as a woman for the rest of her life. That is her choice, of course, but I can identify this as one big roadblock for her in accepting our M as a loving possibility."
Why is this a problem at all? Why aren't you reinforcing and supporting her emotional independence and strength? Why do you want her to continue to feel insecure? Why do you view her being a strong healthy woman who doesn't need a man to be happy as a threat? How about, "It is great you have found your strength and happiness within yourself. I hope that our relationship enriches both our lives without making our happiness dependent on it."
You seem to spend a lot of time psychoanalyzing your W and figuring out how her weaknesses make your life hard and your M difficult.
Look to yourself and your own happiness. Quit trying to mindread. Quit predicting the future. Live a good life that works for you in the present. See if W fits into it WITHOUT trying to control or fix her.
P.S. You are a great guy and a wonderful husband. The biggest things are to be more honest with yourself, and less defensive. You aren't a bad guy, W is not a horrible person. Although you made unfortunate choices, you both did your best at the time, now you can do better.
Defensiveness gets in the way of being honest with yourself and in the way of experiencing genuine understanding of and compassion for your W's own pain.
Drop the arrogance. If you were an all-seeing expert you would not be where you are now.
"perhaps it doesn't deserve much merit as it may all be conjecture on my part"
Yep.
"What can I do to help ease these feelings about her father/men issues,"
Be supportive of her efforts to be a happy whole person by herself rather than one reliant on father/men.
" and distance myself from this past." Treat her differently consistently for a long time.
" It is clear she is willing to "forgive me" about saying bad things about our M," Why quotes around "forgive me"?
" and I do believe the OW is not much of an issue for her as she's said she's no one to judge (although it might be if she needs to use something against me, I guess, but she has said we were separated, so water under the bridge)." You'd be wrong.She might not blame you, but any infidelity is deeply painful, hurtful, damaging. Moreover, you've pretty much told her your EA is your dream woman who shows you how much W is lacking. There is no way she is over that. There is no way that is "not much of an issue." Do you really think that your pain about OM is that W lied to you??? No, it is her physical and emotional interaction with someone else that she wanted MORE than you, that made you seem lacking to her. There is little difference in THAT part of the emotional pain that your involvement with OP caused to each other.
It is really sad to see you so willing to dismiss her pain there and you are probably not giving her space to feel it and acknowledge it as you feel so damn justified in your EA all you seem able to do is DEFEND it and minimize the effects it continues to have on you, W, and your M.
I suggest you try to minimize the difference in your own mind between your As and W's A. MOST of the stuff that matters from this point forward is the SAME. Own it. Have compassion and love for W's pain, insecurity, etc... that WILL be there as a result of your OWs and the cavalier way you are treating the fallout of your Rs with the OWs.
" But, what I do believe is, she is NOT willing to forgive me for doing to her, what she sees is the same thing all the other important men in her life have done - for letting her down. "
What takes time is rebuilding trust. And it will simply take time.
"I suspect, up until a few months ago, I had continued to prove her right with my actions, but I also feel this is a tremendous responsibility for me to carry, just as it was unfair for her to be sole keeper of our R. I feel that is the one issue that will keep her from reengaging. "
Maybe so. That is really her stuff. Stay out of it. You might express your feelings to her: "I'm scared that unless I am always perfect that I will let you down." Or whatever. But REPORT about yourself, don't diagnose and judge her.
"I hear her talk about how she doesn't really need a man and is accepting of flying solo as a woman for the rest of her life. That is her choice, of course, but I can identify this as one big roadblock for her in accepting our M as a loving possibility." Why is this a problem at all? Why aren't you reinforcing and supporting her emotional independence and strength? Why do you want her to continue to feel insecure?
Why do you view her being a strong healthy woman who doesn't need a man to be happy as a threat? How about, "It is great you have found your strength and happiness within yourself. I hope that our relationship enriches both our lives without making our happiness dependent on it."
You seem to spend a lot of time psychoanalyzing your W and figuring out how her weaknesses make your life hard and your M difficult.
Look to yourself and your own happiness. Quit trying to mindread. Quit predicting the future. Live a good life that works for you in the present. See if W fits into it WITHOUT trying to control or fix her.
OMG.... Five Stars for Old Timer (If I knew how to make the stars, they'd be here
Great post...took the words out of my mouth and then added some more brilliant ones. OMW read this post again and again b/c it's what YOU need to hear.
Added note. I went to Retrovaille and heard you comment about how yours was "too religious" for you or your w...really??
I don't get that. My h isn't Catholic and I'm hardly a practicing one.
But I don't think the priest spoke more than 30 minutes the whole weekend and it was not dogmatic at all. IN fact he volunteered to LISTEN to anyone who had baggage about organized religion, which I thought was a bit brave of him.
BTW we went to "The Catholic" one, b/c it was on our anniversary and close by and b/c they specifically answered my question about whether there were any "Conversion" attempts and they said "no, but the Church DID start this program...and you can attend non-Catholic ones or non-denominational ones"...
My question is, You sure you guys aren't using this as an excuse not to do the follow up or to find fault with
or did you get a really different type of retreat? No one else has said this as far as I know.
I DO CONCEDE the word "God" is used and so is the idea of a spiritual connection" between spouses so an atheist might be uncomfortable.
But was it really so annoying?
I could be way off here. Please forgive me if I am, but I get the feeling one or both of you, has an issue with organized religion, period.
Maybe another childhood piece of luggage to deal with??
Like I said, Ours was the Catholic one but I was amazed at how little religion came up at ours, so that comment struck me.
You mentioned it before and that's another reason it struck me. You two had a small to large miracle happen there, and you still want to fault it and find a reason to NOT work out. Never mind thanking the universe for the experience, you still are a bit harpy about it...
I fear It's a symptom of the things Old Timer is saying, imo. Just note it if you can.
All I can say for sure that no one at any Retrovaille shoves religion down your throat, so if you don't like that someone else gets comfort from their faith, don't look. I DO think it's a pattern in you and your situation however.
Please again check OT's post about the defensivenes and the judgement.
The other thing that rings truest for me in OT's post is about the distinctions you make between her pain and yours (your affair and hers) which is very self serving...
and last but not least, you wrote...
Perhaps I can offer transparency myself and see if she is comfortable reciprocating. That's seems a little passive-agressive, though
It's NOT at all passive aggressive. IT's mandatory.
Why set it up so YOU don't have to risk something?
Is it B/c of your "fear of abandonment"?...Nonsense.
To me That's just an awfully convenient way of using psycho talk to say you don't want to give more or give first...
and the reason for it, is not relevant. It justifies selfishness with another "childhood" issue. At some point in life we don't get to use our childhood as an excuse for our present day choices. (Like when we become adults).
When you say you fear you can't live up to her hopes or expectations b/c you let her down...
don't look for another reason not to try your best. This is SUCH a pattern. Go to "Essential Experience" or some other personal growth workshop that strictly addresses how to remove the past from your present (they have a website) or see a T to work on that BUT do not make it a condition of working on the m. THey are separate issues...
You spend a lot of energy theorizing why this won't work, or why it'll be so hard or so complicated for YOU...
I say enough of that. WE all have our childhood "stuff" and that's where it belongs, in our childhood. We cannot let the past decide our future and
predicting that it will, is just making it so.
Give yourself, and your w, a break. You CAN do this.
Be here now. What matters is not that you agree on the past or that you two see it the same way,
(which I think is impossible anyhow, since 2 witnesses to car accidents' can't agree on what they just saw)
but letting go of the past, totally, and looking at how you two choose to go,"from this day forward..."
I believe there is a good reason those words are in so many vows.
(((( )))
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
Took the weekend to step back. Sunday I was invited out with some of my buddies for some much needed male bonding. It was a good change to step away - Old fashioned GAL, which felt great!
Thanks for all the 2x4's. Refreshed, I better understand what you are all telling me. It all a lot to wrap my mind around, but much of it makes perfect sense.
I'd like to back up to Starsky's question, as it is has new relevance at this point. W had been different in her attitude since the last Retro meeting. I was uneasy about the whole "no-contact/transparency" thing, so I asked. She admitted she was in contact with her OM over the weekend. She was uncomfortable giving me details - I do know it was a phone call, but didn't push for details - she said "it didn't matter who called who, as it was my choice to take or make the call either way." She did become defensive, but I did my best to remain calm and be understanding. Even with her defensive posture, I took great strides to be non-confrontational.
After, I thanked her for her honesty, as I think it is much better to have her be upfront about things than it is to lie and sneak. I went to get ready for work. After I was done, she came in and apologized & bawled. Wasn't sure where to go with it, so I let it go, listened and tried my best to be understanding.
I'm feel as if I'm learning the hard way. I think you guys should write a "rule book" or a "DBing for Dummies."
One thing for sure, after all the above, I'm going to try taking much smaller steps. For now, back to basics for me. An honest 180 seems appropriate.
"Nobody can go back and start a new beginning, but anyone can start today and make a new ending." - Maria Robinson
M: 45 WAW: 36 T: 17 M: 14 Kids: D9 ILYBNILWY: 6/2010 W left: 2/2011 W back: 2/2012
For clarity about the 180, I believes she expects me to stew on this all day, and unleash holy hell later - she even commented as such. Always testing.
I'm going to let it go and focus on me. After my weekend, I feel so much better about myself . . . again.
"Nobody can go back and start a new beginning, but anyone can start today and make a new ending." - Maria Robinson
M: 45 WAW: 36 T: 17 M: 14 Kids: D9 ILYBNILWY: 6/2010 W left: 2/2011 W back: 2/2012
After, I thanked her for her honesty, as I think it is much better to have her be upfront about things than it is to lie and sneak. I went to get ready for work. After I was done, she came in and apologized & bawled. Wasn't sure where to go with it, so I let it go, listened and tried my best to be understanding.
I'm feel as if I'm learning the hard way. I think you guys should write a "rule book" or a "DBing for Dummies."
One thing for sure, after all the above, I'm going to try taking much smaller steps. For now, back to basics for me. An honest 180 seems appropriate.
but I lovingly but firmly told her "However, I cannot live in a marriage where my wife is still in contact with another man. I have a lot to think about." And I walked away to get some stuff done.
For clarity about the 180, I believes she expects me to stew on this all day, and unleash holy hell later - she even commented as such. Always testing.
I'm going to let it go and focus on me. . . .
OnMyWay,
I could be wrong, but in reading your backstory, it seems to me that "letting it go" is hardly a "180" for you. In fact, I think that's what she expects you to do. Or perhaps you've been "passive-aggressive" in the past, and would veer between meekly letting things like this slide and then an angry outburst about it.
I think a middle-ground, "lovingly but firmly" as I mentioned above might be a TRUE "180" FOR YOU.
Did you ask her if you hadn't asked, would she have told you?
One thing I always advise people to do is, in the calm of a quiet moment, decide how many (and what kind of) "strikes" you are willing to put up, in terms of broken no-contact.
Once, but only if she self-confesses? Once, even if you have to ask? Twice? Other?
I'd suggest coming up with a hard boundary in your own mind and heart, and then sticking to it as a matter of personal integrity. Otherwise, you're going to find yourself as the proverbial frog in the pot of boiling water.
