Hi Trish - I am getting sooo much help from your conversation here. May I chime in with a couple of simplistic questions?
Quote: He suggested we take in the Basketball game on campus tonight. I was thrilled. A chance to spend some time enjoying something together. We went home, changed our clothes and got some dinner. By 6 he was no longer interested in going. I shrugged it off (wish I had a better response to this, as he sees it too easy to disappoint me.)
Would it be possible, in these situations, to go anyway? Have a good time - umm, demonstrate that you have a good time, with or without him?
Quote: had read in the saturday paper about a Choral performance by the University Choir to be held Sunday night at 7:30 and had asked him if he had any intrest, "Yeah, but ask me on Sunday." he had said,No committment.
Hmmm, I get this A LOT from NG - any idea why they do this? With NG, I wonder if it is a control thing...
Fascinating stuff, Trish. Wishing you a good Wednesday. Slowly
Hi Pam, thanks for stopping in, I appreciate your positive encouragements!
Hey Slowly, I’m so glad to find I am not just talking into air!! All questions and comments welcome here!!! I just hope I will be able to give coherent explanations of my thought processes. Please chime in any time.
Welcome back Betsey!!!! I hope the last few days were productive or restful whichever you needed most! (BTW, your “2 cents worth” is equal to 2 million to me !!)
Slowly, to answer your first question….I think ordinarily, when you meet up with resistance to planning or participating in any given activity, you would be right…..make alternate plans, or go ahead by yourself!! No reason that you should allow the other person to dictate or deprive you of an experience simply because they either: A. Are not truly interested in said activity. B. Would not be good company for such an activity. C. Are trying to control you by their refusal or manipulation of the situation.
I won’t go into a lengthy explanation of my reasons for not going, suffice it to say the only REAL reason for these activities was to spend time with H doing something fun…..different and to share the experience.
Yes if this was something I had an abiding love for, a deep passion about, a keen interest in, I would go ABSOLUTELY. With friends or ALONE!
I honestly believe to do otherwise would be lacking integrity. But, as I said this was not what was happening here. So, although I was disappointed, it was about not being able to do something with H, I did not have a sense of loss over the missed activity.
I show T that I am able to have a good time without him by sharing with him my inter-actions with other that I meet throughout my day. I also think because he knows I have a sense of fun, that he knows if I go somewhere without him I am quite capable of having a good time.
To answer your second observation, I’m sorry you have to endure this same sort of interaction in your situation. I suppose in many cases this sort of behavior could be a controlling mechanism. But I do not believe it is that simplistic; i.e.: “He’s trying to control me”.
It is more like he has a sense of control over HIMSELF…than me. To its roots, I would say it is more like an “Uncertainty” issue. Something about doing or not doing the activity is causing him uncertainty……and so without that security, he does NOT want to go along or participate.
Now it may have NOTHING to do with the activity at hand!!!! This is the frustrating part for those of us trying to decipher their responses. It may have something to do with a thought or feeling or interaction with someone you know nothing about…or it may just be a perception in their own little heads and unless and until you can get it out there and deal with it in a realistic way, you will in all likelihood not be able to convince them otherwise.
IE: When T suddenly got tired on Sunday and no longer wanted to go to the concert that night? Well, I guess I could say,” hmmmm….He just doesn’t want ME to go, maybe he wants to be the one to decide?”, or “He just wants to deny me an activity that HE KNOWS I REALLY want to do, therefore he is refusing to go.”(Controlling)
But if you are like the vast majority of people you also then begin with a whole different line of thought, something along the lines of: Getting hung up in the thought process of: “Is he feeling alright?” “Is there something wrong?”, “Is there something I don’t know?”, “Did I say or do something to turn him off?” And you begin the self examination and self doubt!!! In essence their feelings of doubt and confusion get TRANSFERRED to you!!
Continued questioning of the reluctant (p/a) person USUALLY get you no where….It can in fact make it worse if you do not see this behavior for what it is…..They (p/a) become even more resistant to your questioning and your rising frustration and now obvious uncertainty…….Because you see, they are now getting what they want.
They want YOU to grapple with the uncertainty and ambivalence that THEY are feeling….and it gives them satisfaction….albeit, usually they are not doing this consciously!! It just gives them back a sense of power and control to see YOU have to feel this uncertainty, not them. Therefore the last thing they are going to do is give in and go with you!!
If you COULD figure out what is truly bothering them, well Maybe you have a chance that with some work you could convince them, but it takes a very patient, very adept person to do this and Lord knows I’m not there!!
And hey, sometimes….whatever this thing is that you want, may not truly be something they are interested in…..You have to be the one to weigh whether or not you have realistic expectations.
In this case, after saying, okay I think I will leave in about ˝ an hour…..
T: where are you going? Me: To that concert at the University I mentioned, it should be quite nice. T: oh….frowning and looking away! (First sign!!!), while putting on PJ’s. Me: I go in other room.
After 45 minutes I went into bedroom and “confronted” him about his reaction, (gave him time to realize I was not going, without having to “back down”) Me:” I decided not to go after all, you looked downright upset when I mentioned going” (I looked him straight in the eye and did not divert my gaze!) T: yeah, well,..... pause, pause (he's trying to avoid now!) After your “Boat parade”…… he gives a slight smile (referring to an idea that I convinced him to go with me on. There was a boat parade in the harbor here and it was freezing that night and there were only six little boats that paraded and it was over in 15 minutes, kind of a flop!!) But see, he was trying to avoid telling me why he really didn’t want to go!!! Using the excuse that all these activities are silly.
Me: Well yes some things are going to be silly, but this would probably have been nice, we heard them sing at the convocation remember, and it was indoors too! T: you’re right…I would like to go with you if I felt better (bingo!); it’s just that I am not feeling well and my students will probably be there, three of them are in the choir! I have to get up really early and finish this chapter, it has to be emailed by 7:30 am, and I know I’m not gonna get up in time If I stay up late at this concert!”
Okay, so now I can see he is worried he is gonna be too tired if he stays out (we could have addressed this earlier by setting a time to leave by, which I mentioned to him during this convo) and he is stressed about finishing this chapter,( probably having trouble with the chapter) his back is already hurting and he is afraid he will get up and the pain is gonna bother him AND he doesn’t want to run into students and walk like an old man with back pain!!
Marathon runner, and weight lifter that he is he is struggling with the fact that he is NOT as young as he would like to think himself to be!!( middle age is tough on a guy) Hahaha.
Betsey, Your post brought me such great ideas that I want to respond to....but I have to make a dash for the post office!! I forgot to mail something to Laural's dentist that must go out asap!!!
Well, I made it to the post office just before they closed the doors!! The post office here is sooooo small it's downright laughable....and every day at 3 in the afternoon they close the doors in order to finish processing everyone who is in line so they can close by 4!
The mail here has to go to Rocky Mount, then to Norfolk, then to Philly...before finally sprouting out across the country. Gawd!! it takes forever to get something mailed! I think I told you about the time they closed down cuz they smelled something funny?? Closed the PO, for 2 DAYS!!
Turned out to be some rotting flower bulbs in a package!!!!!! They ACTUALLY calle dd the state HAZMET team and had to wait a day til they got here to examine the package!!!
Expand away!!
I am in need of as much direction as I can get! I feel like I happened upon a treasure chest, and am just beginning to realize it's potential. :shock:
You brought up so many excellent points.
Of course it would be typical p/a behavior to say yes, but not really want to or intend to carry through. thus a yes, is not nessessarily a yes......it's a maybe.
Which then causes the other person to be in a continual stage of uncertainty. Do you make plans counting on their yes, do yo wait til the last minute to see what really will happen?
Right you are again! They are saying yes, to ward off any perceived conflict, basically just to get out of whatever is facing them!!
Your next idea: Telling him it's okay to say NO, seems VITAL!!!
I have NEVER DONE THAT!!!!!! WOW!! I think I will deliberately start saying that just to give him choice!!! Particularly to things I really don't care all that much to doing!!
LOL LOL
Your Next point:
I too find myself "asking" for something, only to feel like I am begging, or rationalizing, why we/he should do this my way....again, not really giving him much choice!!
He most likely feels cornered (wouldn't we all!)
Your example of the interaction between the two of you about what to do with the girls, was PRIMO!
GIGANTIC KUDOS to you for realizing what you were doing mid-sentence and back tracking! Looks like it worked too, because he was able to give you HIS reasoning, and you were able to come to awin-win, mutually agreeable solution!!!
Hurray, for Betsey for being SOLUTION FOCUSED!!
I picked T up from work today, and I was STARVING before I got there.... I thought about how very much I would like to try the new Sonic Burger place (I was tired, I was hungry, I didn't feel like cooking, I know I have nothing in the house, and want to do something fun!!) I practically timed my "performance" ( I am sooo embarrassed now). I "prepped" the customer=T, by saying how STARVING I was when I picked him up, asked him if he was hungry too? (He said no, but I KNEW he was lying I could see his expression.......He just felt a manipulation coming and wanted to resisit!!!) So I waited til we were 1 block from the Sonic burger and I POUNCED! Hey, wanna get a Sonic Burger, I'll even Pay!! I offered.and I HAVE NO MONEY!!!..and besides we want to go work out later right!! If we eat now we will be all digested and ready to go.......blah, blah
We went.
Now to be honest, it was fun..... But, T couldn't understand a word the girl said through the speaker phone......He was a bit embarrassed at his hearing disability.
They got his order wrong...... But he still managed to say how good the burger was.
AND he even ordered an ice cream desssert!! Not a good thing for me to encourage given his high cholestrol....again soooo embarrassed am I
But, now that I see the choice dynamic better, this would have been one of those, "good things to give him the choice on!" In the end, I could have gotten something to eat at home.....and what if it had been terrrible???? He would have probably felt "conned" into going to a bad fast food place!
Well, like I said my friend, your 2 cents is worth all it's weight in gold!!!
Ha! Sonic is one of my frequent haunts here. The menu has stuff to please all of us--all of the time. So often we head over there and eat away. It's pretty much a ritual for us on Tuesday evenings.
Anyway, you brought up something that I used to do all the time--and that is, position my wording so that I had a good argument for him saying yes. I now see it as manipulation, but back then, it was pretty much the only way I could get an honest YES out of him.
Now I just try to come right out and say what I want. Our MC told us once (maybe a zillion times) that it is not unreasonable to ask for something and expect to get it (if all things are equal).
Now about my own sitch last night, if he had said no, I would have picked up D7 and not complained. This week, I seem to be the queen of changing schedules, and I realize that it's a little unfair of me to expect him to keep moving his plans to change with me. I would have taken the girls out shopping with me tomorrow night as well (and still may do that).
I think as long as he's trusting me to be honest and forthright with my requests--without any hidden motive of getting my way--the P/A behaviors are gone or close to it.
So you're right, to help this work out... it could have been as simple as saying, "T, I am dog tired and don't feel like cooking. I also don't have a dime. Would you mind springing for dinner this time? I would really appreciate it. And BTW, I'd like to try out the new Sonic."
If he says no, you can just say, "Well, okay. I understand. I can make grilled cheese or PBJ sandwiches tonight." Then see how he feels about that.
BTW, there was something in one of your suggested websites to Slowly that really hit a nerve with me. And it was very true in my sitch for a really, really long time.
That thought was that the P/A person tends to focus on their resentment and feeding it rather than focus on goals that give them satisfaction.
Wow, was that a powerful statement. I think what turned Mr. Wonderful around was that I gave him permission to say no. And I made damn sure I didn't punish him for exercising that choice. It took quite awhile for him to want to do the things I asked of him. I really don't know when this happened. Hmmmmm.
BTW, I have a follow up to that story today. Because my plans with D10 changed once again. I left him a voicemail message before lunch, asking him to return my call when he got a chance.
I had your posts in mind when he called, and I began...
"K, I'd like to change my plans tonight." He said, "Okay, what's up?"
I responded, "Well, [colleague]'s BF has her car, and she was supposed to meet me and D10 to do the shopping for our adopted family. I'd really like for her to help me out. Since she lives really close to your apartment, I was wondering if you would agree to taking D7 back to your apartment and I could pick her up after dropping [colleague] off at her house?"
He didn't hesitate with his answer: "Sure. That way I don't have to wait around at the house and I can get some stuff done around here until you arrive. That's actually a better deal for me."
In the old days, I'd have found a way to word it so that my request looked exactly like a benefit to him and that I was actually doing him a favor. I don't mind it coming out as a favor, but my request is based on logistical sense that benefited both of us.
So, yes, often it's in the verbiage and execution of the request or need. Not the need itself.
I'm thrilled that you are seeing more effective ways to communicate as well. It really has helped me 1000%.
Hugs!
Bets
"There are only 2 ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle."
you two are doing so great I'll just sit here on the side, nodding my head sagely. Trish, reading your dialogues with him I believe you're truely onto something. GO YOU!
You aren't talking to thin air, I read your posts regularly, but have either been too busy to get back to you or too confused about my own situation to think straight and say anything meaningful.
But I'm here!
Livnlearn
"The unexamined life is not worth living" - Socrates
I so glad you stopped in! Even if I didn't know you were!!
Pen, I can just imagine you sitting there nodding
LNL!! Hang in there.
I think we were on a roll there weren't we!
Bets, I so wanted to answer you with some coherency!!!
Yesterday (Thursday) was a wash out ....MOSF(my own stupid fault) Didn't watch what I ate.....the whole day gone to exhaustion. I needed to rehydrate and protein load!!
I wrote Betsey and told her what a goofy thing I had done... I think I will have an aversion to doughnuts for quite a while!! UGH!!
I'm Back on track today.
Things are going along okay.
I seem to be so acutely aware of T's and My communication dynamics! I have successfully managed to wade through 4 times when he showed indications of insecurity and fend them off by stopping what I was doing, being sensitive to where he might be at and confront him (maybe too strong a word) acknowledge! his "inner workings", about whatever it may be.
I feel slightly empowered by all this??!!
However, I am also sad to recognize how ingrained this pattern (p/a)is for him and how unlikely it is ever going to change.
From all that I am reading, councelling, is nearly useless with this sort of behavior. They the p/a just rationlizes themsleves out of their behavior and challenges the councelor on their motives and intentions. They often times tire the councelor out with their refusal to see how any of this is coming from themsleves! Basically a defense mechanism that they use with the C to regain a sense of control.
This very thing has happened each time with C for us.
Sounds pretty grim if you ask me.
I'm hoping it's just because I am PM'ing and a little extra tired from yesterday.
Taking it one day at a time seems ridiculous to me....I'll wake up ten years from now and say WTF!!!!! was I thinking?
Yeah, well, because of you, I was craving two things yesterday--and I didn't care what item crossed my path first: a tumbler filled with 3 fingers of caramel colored single malt scotch (neat, of course) or a Krispy Kreme.
Turned out I got neither. So I had to settle for 2 dishes (yes, count 'em--2) of vanilla ice cream with chocolate syrup and a dollop of creamy peanut butter on top. (Did I mention that I'm down 2 lbs? Back to being below my goal weight. Damn it, I deserve this!)
I only want to say a couple things here because I know exactly why you're fretting about this stuff, Trish. I know what the experts all say: that there is nothing anyone can do to treat P/A behaviors unless the person wants to change.
Well, I'm living proof that you can make a bad situation better by allowing them control over their own decisions and others as well. (Not by manipulating you, though, in case you or anyone thinks I advocate this.)
If we all believed what others told us (and modelled for us), we'd have been divorced without taking this path. Right? So why should making things better with a P/A man be any different? Why not see what things you can do that actually help?
BTW, Mr. W. didn't respond well at all to counselors who put him down like a bad little boy. (That would be all of them except for the MC we used last year.) I think for P/A types, it affirms that someone else thinks of themselves as an authority over them and brings out the stubborn and belligerent aspects of their personalities even more.
"You really think so? Well, I'll just show you..."
Worry about today, my friend. Tomorrow will come soon enough and you can worry about it then.
Hugs!
Betsey
"There are only 2 ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle."
You have me rolling in the aisles!!! AND drooling!!
I may have no hankering for pastry but the scotch sounds fabulous!!
But alas, I will have to settle for popcorn with low sodium salt....nothing else in the house and I am NOT going out......
I think you're just trying to make me feel better about my Uhm...Overindulgence??....... With your ice cream spluge...... I KNOW you aren't eating that much...
Thanks, It worked.
I also am laughing cuz you sure do see right through me don't you!! That is EXACTLY what I am worried about..... The experts DO all say that treatment for the p/a is very tough and usually not very successful.
Right you are, if we had all listened to the "experts" we wouldn't be here now would we. Thanks for pointing that out.
I am getting cold feet before I really give it a chance.
You're right worry about today, today.....I can't expect more than that from myself.
((((((((Hug))))))) Boy do I feel lucky to have a friend like you!
Well, I'm due for a little journaling and a little nervouse venting.
Ever since I found the passive/aggressive information last week I feel my life took an huge turn.
I was not expecting this!
After so many years of trying to figure out what was going on and whose fault things were and just what was I up against/ I stumbled...yes, stumbled upon what I was WASN'T LOOKING FOR. I know it wasn't by accident, but I wasn't in the midst of a deep soul search or anything that dramatic, I just kept turning and turning until the door opened and I stepped through.
I guess I expected all this pain and agony and struggle!!! Instead It( all this info about him) just was there in front of me.
Now, not to say I am thrilled with what I found. Actually I was terrified. I still am. After finding all the ideas about p/a, I felt defeated like I hadn't before. A hopelessness. My answers are not easy, they are anything but simple, they are hard and dark and rather daunting, I would say. But I'm grateful and I even feel some relief.
It's like being given the answers to all these odd crazy, questions I've had over the years. Now so many of the puzzle pieces fit and things don't seem nearly so cloudy.
It definitely gives me a sense of composure.
For so long I have felt like a rock climber clinging to the sheer face of a cliff, gnawing my way inch by inch toward the top with my hands getting just ripped and bloody! Not having any idea what awaits me there, but hoping if nothing else I have a sense of accomplishment just for arriving! How silly of me, like there's some reward just for sticking in there!! Now I feel like the journey is just less uncertain. I don't particulaly care what's up top.
I'm more concerned with the journey itself.
I had been absolutley wrapped up over this trip back to our hometown. Whether I should go with T or not.
It meant he would be there by himself with Shark Lady for a whole week, in a hotel and lots of face time with her. Intense face time. Working very closely on his case.
I knew I should go. But I suddenly really didn't want to! I wanted to be able to trust him. I wanted to be able to say SHE doesn't matter. But I was very torn. I would be a fool to think that with me not around, she wouldn't try and get him to stay with her, do xmas stuf together, stuff with her kids, romantic stuff ...whatever she could.... But after I realized what I was dealing with, I suddenly did not feel nearly as threatened...well, almost.
I had a day of imagining them together, and then a day of just resignation, like if that is what's going to happpen(them being togther) then there is nothing I can really do about it. But then I realized, HE is impossible. If they want to try then let em' go ahead!
Frankly, I know as sure as I draw breath it would not work! I am not going to worry about that any more. It is a waste of my life and my time.
If I go, it I should go because T could really use the support right now. We are going there so (((three!!)) of the witnesses can be deposed for his lawsuit against his former employer. His boss, the HR person and the pres. of the U.
I want to be there. I want to be the one who supports him. So I'm going. Shark Lady is ABSOLUTELY going to try as hard as she can while he's there, but let her. I don't give a damm.
I know it's probably going to be awfull. I'm probably going to be miserable, and she is going to look like a GD saint for all her legal brilliance, but not going doesn't seem like the right thing.
I reviewed DR this morning, and I will try and stay positive.
This is gonna be tough. She is gonna try and push my buttons and I won't even know what to do.
Slowly
:shock: 
