Why do you have to communicate with OW in June if the single necessary transaction has already been completed today?
Why would you have any communication at all with OW in which W was not included? Can you BCC her? Does she have full access to your email?
All of this should be totally transparent.
And, all of this applies to W and OM too. No contact, complete transparency. It really doesn't matter whether she gets it. It is YOUR boundary to set, not hers. Good for her if she has the same one with you.
OMG, I must not be writing well, so let me be clear:
I NO LONGER HAVE AN EA WITH THE OW!!!
"Nobody can go back and start a new beginning, but anyone can start today and make a new ending." - Maria Robinson
M: 45 WAW: 36 T: 17 M: 14 Kids: D9 ILYBNILWY: 6/2010 W left: 2/2011 W back: 2/2012
I'd strongly suggest that you and your wife -- as part of your reconcilation -- commit to a MUTUAL transparency plan with each other.
Have you two discussed no-contact and transparency? Preferably, this would be introduce by a good MC/FT, specifically trained in dealing with the aftermath of infidelity, but the two of you could do it on your own, too.
You're either both "all in" on this, or you're not. The FEELINGS will take a long time to return, but the DECISION can me back now. As they taught us as Retrouvaille, "Love is a decision" . . . right?
Starsky
OnMyWay, is there a reason why you didn't answer my questions? Did you see my post?
thanks,
Starsky
Yes. First of all, I didn't have time to answer your question. Second I wanted to think on it, as your topic wasn't sitting well with me at the time I reviewed it. But, in studying your topic further, I do appreciate what you are telling me. We have NOT had such a discussion outside of me originally stating if she were to come back, that OM needs to be gone. Of course, I wasn't in a relationship with anyone else (see above with regards to oldtimer), so I wasn't thinking I had anything I needed to be transparent about AT THAT TIME. She has admitted to me that she did have minimal contact with him since she moved back initially. As part of the Retrouvaille program, you must not have a relationship outside of the marriage as a condition of attending, so I have relied on the honor system up to now.
After our post-meeting last night, I could tell she was agitated, so inquired and was able to get her to open up. She unloaded all kinds of garbage in her life - from school, dealing with her family (her sister is a drug addict and is having problems), stress of graduation, finals, our situation, Retrouvaille (she doesn't like the religious aspects of it - and with reason, albeit off topic), and other "stuff." Interesting was that OM was not much of a factor. That could either be because he is beginning to fade and have less influence on her, or that she holds him in such high regard, he didn't merit discussion as an "issue affecting her life." That I'm not certain. She seems "clean" at this point in time, but then again, she did lie about it in the past, so it may merit further inquiry.
Further discussion at home led into our problems (against the rules of our program - we are not to be "fixing" our problems yet, just understanding each other's feelings). Her issues seemed to have little to do with her feelings for someone else, but more to do with her feelings about us, her independence, and how she feels society has judged her.
So, while she has made the decision to come back and made the decision to "try," I judge the decision to forgive and the decision to love are not a choices she's ready to make. Therefore, I'm admittedly a little nervous right now about forcing an issue of transparency when we are just getting started. Although, your question has me curious.
Perhaps I can offer transparency myself and see if she is comfortable reciprocating. That's seems a little passive-agressive, though. Perhaps simply waiting for the opportune moment would be a better way to approach the topic. I'm nervous to upset the obvious progress we have made in just the past week. Transparency will become a must down the road. Just not sure I'd be putting the cart before the horse at this juncture and that makes me nervous.
OMW,
Thank you for the thorough and thoughtful reply. I do certainly understand that you're busy; I just wanted to make sure my posting to you wasn't upsetting you, as I'm only trying to help, based upon my own past mistakes.
I see your wife's sister is a drug addict. I'm sorry about that, but it does give you and your wife a good framework from which to talk about no-contact, transparency, and the highly-addictive allure of a current or past affair partner. It's really the same concept, with a different drug.
I too have gone thru this (my wife's infidelity), and also thru Retrouvaille. Yes, Retro teaches us not to try to "fix", but this is more to help us in our communication with our spouses. A marriage ripped by infidelity requires its own set of tools, strategies and tactics, and after 6+ years of studying literally thousands of affairs -- and having peer-counseled dozens of people myself -- I have yet to see "I don't want to rock the boat" and "let's just see how this goes"-type things work.
To be more brief, as one of MY mentors likes to say, "Hope isn't a plan."
This -- the repair and reconciliation of your marriage after each of you has done some damage to it -- is going to require every bit of planning and focus you can apply to it. And make no mistake, it's GOING to require full transparency. It simply can't work without it.
Definitely some things to ponder, for sure. Thank you so much. So, if you don't mind, let me ask you some questions, as I do understand that "Hope is not a plan" and am looking for some solutions that will help move things in the better direction without doing more damage. I want to do what works, but am having issues with identifying those things. Transparency, I feel, is just one piece of a much larger puzzle.
I am limited on time for now, but I would like to go into more detail on some personal "discoveries" I've made in our relationship. This is off the cuff, so please don't be too critical to these ramblings, but see them and me trying to put together some very deep thoughts and emotions.
First of all, my W feels she was always the keeper of the R, and eventually just got tired of having to put so much effort into it. I'd judge she is correct and do own the fact that I could've/should've been there more. I am an adopted child my W feels this has somehow played a roll in my being so willing to withdraw from our relationship. I believe she is correct and have identified one of my biggest fears to be that of giving myself to someone and then being abandoned (something my wife has now done) and deeply hurt (using my biological mother giving me up for adoption as the metaphor). I believe there is some credibility to this and it may keep me from opening fully and from being fully "present" in most of my relationships (with the exception of my parents). I justify this with the idea that eventually everyone leaves me. That is my learned behavior and I believe something I used to push my W away back when our M was still good. Ultimately, she began to drift and I lashed out very negatively and "flatly rejected" her as an unworthy mate. Something I then repeated on a second occasion. I believe this rejection to have initiated the beginning of the end of our relationship. At that point, my W had no reason to continue to "keep" the M and gave up. She does admit we should've found Retrouvaille or other help back then. Shoulda-would-coulda...
Second, my W is from divorced parents, both remarried, with her mother having two daughters from her new marriage. She insists their D has nothing to do with us and is insulted that so many people (myself included) feel that fact does indeed have an effect on her. She feels people who stay together when they are unhappy can have just as messed up kids ("look at my sister for example!"). At a young age, she had a hard time with their separation, as do all children. Ultimately, she ended up staying with her mom, but disliked both her step parents - I concur that both parents remarried poorly. Her step father was an alcoholic who treated her as inconvenience. Her step mother is a devout conservative, fire & brimstone Christian and feels my W is a spoiled brat (she may be right). To top it off, one day when she was very young, her father told her that God was most important thing in the world to him. When she ask if he had to choose between her and God, he had the chance as a parent to give her confidence, but instead, he informed her he would let her die and choose god if those were his choices. I'm sure he was trying to demonstrate the importance of religion in his life, but my W got something completely different out of that statement - that she was not the most important thing in his life. All her life, he and her step mom have told her she is going to hell as a sinner - hence her issues with religion in the Retrouvaille program. God talk actually offends her. Either way, the paternal influences in her life are weak at best.
Now, in our situation, here I come, a male savior, strong and confident. For years I have filled her need as the "man who'd always be there for her" in her life only to ultimately let her down. I see that she has interpreted my own insecurities/lashing out as a failing and now ranks me with the other main men in her life. Not justifying her choices, but I do recognize this as the reason (right or wrong) she developed this relationship with this other man. What, I judge, she is not seeing, however, is that this man, too, would one day let her down and join the ranks of the other men in her life and she would be forced to move on to the next "Knight in shining armor."
I'm not sure if this is old news here on this board - I'm sure I've covered much of it before - and perhaps it doesn't deserve much merit as it may all be conjecture on my part.
But to my question: What can I do to help ease these feelings about her father/men issues and distance myself from this past. It is clear she is willing to "forgive me" about saying bad things about our M, and I do believe the OW is not much of an issue for her as she's said she's no one to judge (although it might be if she needs to use something against me, I guess, but she has said we were separated, so water under the bridge). But, what I do believe is, she is NOT willing to forgive me for doing to her, what she sees is the same thing all the other important men in her life have done - for letting her down. I suspect, up until a few months ago, I had continued to prove her right with my actions, but I also feel this is a tremendous responsibility for me to carry, just as it was unfair for her to be sole keeper of our R. I feel that is the one issue that will keep her from reengaging. I hear her talk about how she doesn't really need a man and is accepting of flying solo as a woman for the rest of her life. That is her choice, of course, but I can identify this as one big roadblock for her in accepting our M as a loving possibility.
That's a lot of garbage to dump here, but keeping these details in mind, I would appreciate any ideas towards making a plan.
"Nobody can go back and start a new beginning, but anyone can start today and make a new ending." - Maria Robinson
M: 45 WAW: 36 T: 17 M: 14 Kids: D9 ILYBNILWY: 6/2010 W left: 2/2011 W back: 2/2012
I will say, i was only HALF joking. It's been my experience that "introspection is GOOD; navel-gazing is BAD" when it comes to these sitches. It's very easy to get into paralysis-by-analysis, and you'll also get more people replying to you with shorter, informative posts.
You started your long post by saying you were going to ask me some questions, but I didn't see any??
