Did you see the posts Gnosis put on CD's thread about detachment?
They are good ones. _________________________ In the depths of winter I finally learned there was in me an invincible summer..Albert Camus
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#76271 - 03/02/11 01:24 PM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: bustorama] LovingAnyway Board of Directors Treasurer Member
Registered: 08/05/10 Posts: 2214 Bustor, you are doing, not trying.
You get this. Understand, that you have revoked your permission to cross your boundaries at the first level. Then you hit another level...and you crossed them. You learned. You revoke them at that level. Then the next.
It's a process, not perfection.
What's important is that you amend. And you did. In your post. You recognized what you did, why you did it, and how and why you won't do it again...at that level of upset.
Amends are true apologies. Which is why I said your W's sorries weren't apologies. Not a DJ. She said what she was sorry for doing, not why she did it, nor how or why she wouldn't do it again.
If you accept "sorry" instead of amends, you will also only give sorry, first part. That constant two-way street stays active, all the time.
My intent is to encourage, clarify...not saying you're doing it wrong, you're wrong, or making a mess. You're in a mess. You're going for clarity. That's really hard for us, because we are in it.
Easier to see out here. Easier to hear. No assumptions. Just more clarity.
Even as our hearts are in there with you.
Use your awareness of the enmeshment to help guide you. Seeing where you project helps immensely to clarify. What pushes your buttons (that she does) is in you. Which feeds your upset, raises your emotional level. This is great to know and understand.
You feel the urge, feel compelled to rectify, correct, refute. What that urge is telling you, in part, is that you aren't acknowledging your stuff as your own. It's hers, in you. So hand it back. Repeat it back. "You're sorry for calling me names." "You're saying you're feeling upset." Simple stuff.
Hand it back. That way, you'll hand what is yours back to you, too. "I'm really reactive right now. I'll email you." Hang up.
All of that is respectful. Honest. Accepting.
Not approving.
When we really work hard to get someone else to act differently, we don't see we're not making different choices. We're doing that dance. Bustor, you so know that dance. Where you think she's not clear, so you clarify, then she blames, and you are flooded with frustration.
Each going for control...eyes on the other...not their own boundaries.
There is relief, freedom, that letting go of what isn't yours (never was) isn't moving on...it's moving into your own power and limits. Stops the dance because you stop dancing those same steps. Takes practice. You've been practicing. You're not back at square one.
You're at a new level.
She misperceives for a reason...and it's her own. No control over that, Bustor. Even though you really, deeply, truly want to have that control to fix this for her benefit, yours, the kids and the marriage.
If only she would/wouldn't...
Know that if only is another fantasy word for wishing...when we hurt, we heart it, reach for it, dwell in it...false comfort, part of the worn out dance.
If only I had the words, the tone, the clarity, I could...
Can you hear that? Part of the ramp to where you launch is paved with..."If only she hadn't, I wouldn't have..." and in her head, "If only he would have, I wouldn't have said..."
Keep practicing your habit of respect...everywhere. Even with the television, here on MA, with your kids and FOO (family of origin). Practicing your new habit...you hear a news report with an interview...you hear DJs...repeat back, aloud...notice, note. Practice. Hear it in music on the radio, see it on the road. It's there. I know God brings us what we need, when we need it.
About the phone and your number. She's not calling right now. She's not leaving you three voicemails and four texts in a row. When she's out of control...consider it. Yes, you tell her your boundary enforcement if she continues. Do it by email or text, 'k?
I'm asking you to think up progressive enforcements...don't have to be mine. Brainstorm with yourself. You're a smart, creative guy. Might not feel like it when you're spinning...you remain smart, creative.
Stating what you'll do if she continues to cross your boundary is respectful. She's not crossing it right now. You're not spinning right now, either. So you sit and consider, brainstorm and map out your predetermined enforcements.
You're no hypocrite. You will do and say things, and not do and not say things, which are contrary to what you really want, when you're reactive. First boundary of respect is to act, not react. Put those enforcements around yourself...when you are reactive, you don't get to interact until you settle yourself. Clear your mind. State, "I'm reactive right now" out loud.
Your choices...not telling you what you have to do...no have to's...what you require of yourself, set up for yourself to follow, not to get anyone else to act differently...
you do so from love, acceptance, your highest wants...and who you really are. Whole thing is not to be done perfectly...to achieve perfection. It's to live aligned with your self, truly alive. Really tough to do when your whole self feels torn apart because your spouse is now separate from you. Best time can be the toughest times.
Sometimes the only time possible.
You chose the perspective of your kids hearing her talk to you like that. Would you consider that as a signal to yourself, that your real want is to be able to rely on yourself, with your kids present, to speak to her in the way you'd be proud for them to witness?
LA _________________________ The Paradoxical Commandments
"It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so." Mark Twain
MALovingAnyway@gmail.com
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#77542 - 03/05/11 01:35 AM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: LovingAnyway] bustorama Member
Registered: 11/14/10 Posts: 356 @believer, thanks for detachment pointer. helpful for trying to get myself more detached again
@la, yes, I will keep doing and doing better each day. Continue process of respecting and being honest to myself and my boundaries, while respecting that my W is her own person, who can make her own choices and manage her own feelings and filters.
_________________________ Me-40 W-36 D9, D5, D3 T-Since 12/2001 Married-9/2004 She Moved Out-5/28/2010
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#77543 - 03/05/11 01:37 AM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: bustorama] bustorama Member
Registered: 11/14/10 Posts: 356 Lil update:
W has txt'ed me a few times about kid-related stuff over last couple of days. She tried calling me once at the beginning of one of the txting volley, I was away from phone when she called and when I came back she was txting, so I just txted in response.
One reason for her contacting me is that Our D5 is starting to have anxiety problems at school. Her teacher emailed us some concerns about them. D5 is already in play therapy. Some of the anxiety issues are related to eating issues (D5 feeling pressured by aides to finish her food, D9 actually went through similar issues at the same school and with the same aides, I ended up asking her teacher to ask the aides to lay off D and told D that I just wanted her to do the best job she could eating thesame way she does at home [she is finicky normally]).
A separate set of anxiety issues seem to be related to separation anxiety (talking about being afraid of being left behind in classroom or on way to bathroom or on playground, etc.) that has re-emerged with the separation sitch.
And then some of them are sort of compulsive, almost OCD-like behaviors she has developed about sorting things,wanting to have things arranged in a certain way, not wanting people to disrupt the way she has her stuff. I think she does this stuff more at W's apt and at school and a bit less here at home. My sense on this is that it may be her way to try to maintain order and keep a sense of control in an environment that she feels is out of control and chaotic to her.
W asked if I would send an email to teacher re: how I had handled the eating thing previously with D9. I said of course and wrote an email to teacher about those issues and my view on where the anxiety might be coming from (the above two ideas about separation anxiety and trying to gain sense of control in out of control sitch) and also described some of the other things I do with D5 here to try to help her learn to manage and overcome her own anxiety, rather than let it control her (and get worse in the process) and also to help her have a sense of control (choices, etc.). I also wrote that I always tried to stay very calm and non-reactive when D5 was anxious and it seemed to help D5 when I was that way. I Cc:ed it to W also.
I also talked to D5 about her feelings and had her brainstorm about ways she could handle difft situations at school that had made her anxious (besides avoiding).
W txt'ed me the next day thanking me so much for sending the email to the teacher and to her, that she felt alot better after it. She also said she tried to stay extra calm the next morning she had D5 and it seemed to help alot. I talked to D5 and she said her teacher talked to the aides and the aid that usually hassled her did not hassle her that day and lunch went alot better. Hopefully, I can help D5 get through this.
Wed night I went on a nice run with my running group and then drug my sweaty self to an alumni viewing party (we won!) that was followed by bowling with another alumni group. I won the bowling tournament (LOL!) and got a bobble head bowler trophy, free t-shirt from the bar and tix for a couple of rounds of free games. It was a real fun time. Met new people.
Yesterday had a good work day and again today. Took girls to BBQ for dinner last night, and tonight I made them some fish and chicken masala. They seemed to like the tilapia. They are snoozing away. We will go to ballet class in AM for little ones. D5 has a birthday party to attend around 2 pm tomorrow and I will take D9 to some 4th grade social playground activity while D5 is at her bday party.
Edited by bustorama (03/05/11 02:11 AM) _________________________ Me-40 W-36 D9, D5, D3 T-Since 12/2001 Married-9/2004 She Moved Out-5/28/2010
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#77585 - 03/05/11 10:49 AM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: bustorama] catperson Member
Registered: 08/31/10 Posts: 7915 Look at how amazing you are looking to everyone. Patience.
Registered: 11/14/10 Posts: 356 Yesterday, we did dance classes in am for D3 and D5 (ballet, tap, jazz). Then D5's friend had birthday party. Turned out it was a "stay" rather than "drop off" party, so I stayed there with my other D's. My D9 said she didn't want to go to the 4th grade play day anyway (she's not very sporty). There were some younger sibs for D3 to play with and D9 hung out and and enjoyed the snacks/cake. At both dance and b-day party, I talked with the other moms and dads. Pretty fun time.
Came home, had dinner and watched part of some movie called Impy...and something. We are gonna finish it tonight. All 3 of the girls were cuddled up on my bed watching it with each other. D9 actually set it up, very cute. She even decided to read bedtime stories to the two little ones. Such a good big sister. I watched my alma mater lose in basketball (boooo, means I lost a bet to a friend and owe him a free night out). On bright side, I helped same friend find a new home for his cat, hehe.
This AM, we went to church -- ran into my friend from the running group there, then went to swim lessons for two little ones, then changed and went to Costco for lunch and shopping. Just got back, I need to unload everything. I'm kinda tired. _________________________ Me-40 W-36 D9, D5, D3 T-Since 12/2001 Married-9/2004 She Moved Out-5/28/2010
Registered: 11/14/10 Posts: 356 On W front, she had txt'ed yesterday AM to talk to girls. I dialed for girls and they talked to her. Some kind of dropped call while D3 was talking to her. I dialed back and handed it to D3 and thought she was talking to W, but I guess she was talking to answering machine but awhile later, W texted that she had been disconnected from D3 and had tried to call but "there was no answer" I think maybe D3 was talking to machine when W's call waiting came through? Anyway, I dialed back one more time and handed to D3.
Later, W txt'ed asking how dance went. I said girls did well. Then she texted that it had broke her heart how D5 had said in morning that D5 had felt excluded and sad when D9 and D3 had been playing with each other. I txt'ed W explaining how I had handled the situation.
Then W responded saying she had liked the photography class she took that AM and was planning to take more. TXTed "The photographer said the lens you got me [for Xmas back in 2009] was really, really good and that I should give you a hug for getting it, LOL." I didn't respond to that one.
Later that day, W txt'ed asking me how the birthday party was, telling me she was hanging out with her gfriend and what they were doing. I txt'ed her saying the girls had fun at the birthday party and that it was a fun day with the other kids and parents.
This AM, W txt'ed me to say she hoped swimming went well and to tell the girls she loved them. Said she was going to get a facial with one of her girlfriends from a Groupon coupon she has (no response from me)
I have been responding if she asks a question that concerns the girls or comments on what I think is a relevant behavioral issue with the girls. _________________________ Me-40 W-36 D9, D5, D3 T-Since 12/2001 Married-9/2004 She Moved Out-5/28/2010
Registered: 11/09/10 Posts: 5058 Loc: TX That seems like an awful lot of texts about the girls, with most of them not really relating to anything important. If she wants to know what the girls are doing, whether they are having fun, etc, she can wait and ask the girls when they go back to her house. No reason for the two of you to be discussing that, right? _________________________ D6, S2
I didn't recover my marriage; I recovered me.
Separated Oct 2010 Divorced Jun 2011 New journey Nov 2011 with Night + D4
Txt Set 1 - To talk to girls (I dialed W for girls - definitely appropriate)
Txt 2 - Asking about dance / D5 behavioral issue that D5 told W about during morning convo. (the latter issue seems appropriate to me given D5's ongoing emotional issues, the dance not important)
Txt 3 - Photography class/camera lens (I didn't respond)
Txt 4 - Asking about bday party for girls (I responded that they enjoyed bday party, in hindsight, this does seem on the excessive side to me since she talked to girls that AM and it's not really an important issue)
SUNDAY
Txt 1 - Swimming / tell girls I love them / getting facial with friend (no response from me)
She seems to be missing the girls. Not my responsibility.
One thing that is a little tricky about waiting to hear about the girls' day from the girls is they aren't very good historians at this age (as I'm sure you know CR). You can ask them how their day/weekend was and they might not remember anything. I remember never really knowing how D9's days were when she was going to daycare/preschool, for example. Missed out on that. But, maybe that's just the sad reality of putting your D9 in daycare/preschool (or the reality of not living as a married family -- you sort of miss out on half of your kids' lives).
If she wants to, I'm also fine with her talking to the girls about this stuff instead of me playing intermediary. I mean I could have the girls call her when she txt's me asking about the girls. But I don't want her txting every 6 hr throughout the day to talk to them. What are guidelines on stuff like this??? My ex-W and I have never had this issue with each other. When the other parent had D9, we just sort of accepted she was in good hands and well-cared for and would call to talk to her when she could be put on phone.
On the other hand, I also was told never to use the kids as pawns and information about kids should flow freely between parents, never be withheld when asked for, etc.
???? _________________________ Me-40 W-36 D9, D5, D3 T-Since 12/2001 Married-9/2004 She Moved Out-5/28/2010
Registered: 11/09/10 Posts: 5058 Loc: TX We don't share info about the kids' daily lives unless the other parent needs to know (falls, illnesses, growth spurts, etc). We aren't living together anymore, and he doesn't get to be a vicarious full-time parent. If he wants to know what they do all the time, then he ought not to have left home. I actually talked about this with my IC last week - she said either way (limiting info or telling everything) is fine. _________________________ D6, S2
I didn't recover my marriage; I recovered me.
Separated Oct 2010 Divorced Jun 2011 New journey Nov 2011 with Night + D4
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#78277 - 03/07/11 03:11 AM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: CajunRose] bustorama Member
Registered: 11/14/10 Posts: 356 I never responded to today's txt message from W, instead dialed for D's to talk to W at end of day. Lazy night -- made some spaghetti and chicken apple sausage for dinner for us. We watched the end of that Impy movie tonight. Girls looked forward to it and were all cute and cuddled on my bed again. _________________________ Me-40 W-36 D9, D5, D3 T-Since 12/2001 Married-9/2004 She Moved Out-5/28/2010
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#78359 - 03/07/11 10:27 AM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: bustorama] bustorama Member
Registered: 11/14/10 Posts: 356 Has anyone seen Rango? Thumbs up? down? Reviews on rotten tomatoes look pretty good. Appropriate for young kids? (D5,D3?) _________________________ Me-40 W-36 D9, D5, D3 T-Since 12/2001 Married-9/2004 She Moved Out-5/28/2010
Registered: 11/14/10 Posts: 356 Nice 5 miler last night. Good work day yesterday and so far today. Taking D5 to play therapy later today and will mention about the anxiety issues that came up last week at school.
W emailed me that she registered D3 for preschool starting in July. I emailed back thanking her for doing that and asked a couple of questions related to it.
OK, question here -- I am getting the house painted. In terms of picking colors, I have a 3-color scheme that I've picked with the painter. The colors are very different from what the house is currently. I think it will look great and am excited for the changes.
Is there a reason to run the paint choices by wife since she is still part owner of house? "Since you also are part owner of the house I wanted to let you know I am having it painted and these are the colors I have chosen. If you have any questions or concerns about it, can you please let me know by such and such date?"
Or, alternatively, do I have no reason/duty to inform her -- regardless of ownership, she doesn't live here anymore and it's my home to decorate as I see fit?
Thanks for any input. _________________________ Me-40 W-36 D9, D5, D3 T-Since 12/2001 Married-9/2004 She Moved Out-5/28/2010
Registered: 10/12/10 Posts: 1218 Quote: she doesn't live here anymore and it's my home to decorate as I see fit
Yep _________________________ You must never confuse faith that you will prevail in the end which you can never afford to lose with the discipline to confront the most brutal facts of your current reality, whatever they might be.
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#79038 - 03/08/11 05:23 PM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: bustorama] rob x Member
Registered: 11/12/10 Posts: 1383 Originally Posted By: bustorama ...Or, alternatively, do I have no reason/duty to inform her -- regardless of ownership, she doesn't live here anymore and it's my home to decorate as I see fit?
Thanks for any input.
I think you answered the question yourself, it's your home, paint it whatever color you like, she doesn't live there anymore, do what YOU want to do - it's ok, you're allowed to think this way with this decision and many other similar decisions you have to make, you're part owner of the house, full owner of your life, do what you want. _________________________ “Man’s proper stature is not one of mediocrity, failure, frustration, or defeat, but one of achievement, strength, and nobility. In short, man can and ought to be a hero.”
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#79161 - 03/08/11 10:05 PM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: rob x] bustorama Member
Registered: 11/14/10 Posts: 356 Excellent. Full steam ahead.
My D3 came down with a cold and double pink eye today. Got sent home from day care. My W picked her up and took her to Dr to get drops. I txt thanked her for doing this (I was with D5 at her play therapy appointment). Unfortunately, this required a kid exchange at my house. I asked W to txt me when she was at house so I could come out and get D3. D3 cried BLOODY MURDER about being separated from W. She was really going crazy screaming at the top of her lungs, MAMA MAMA MAMA. The worst ever I think. I stayed calm and tried to console her while carrying her back into the house.
She settled down after about 15 min. Then we had nice dinner (chicken flautas, Mexican tortilla soup, chicken pasta noodles, and pineapple -- yeah little random, hehe). Girls helped clean up the downstairs and are getting ready for bed now. _________________________ Me-40 W-36 D9, D5, D3 T-Since 12/2001 Married-9/2004 She Moved Out-5/28/2010
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#79270 - 03/09/11 10:43 AM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: bustorama] gr8 day 2b alive Member
Registered: 11/09/10 Posts: 1286 Loc: Brotherly Love Quote: She settled down after about 15 min. Then we had nice dinner (chicken flautas, Mexican tortilla soup, chicken pasta noodles, and pineapple -- yeah little random, hehe).
Your D3 ate this for dinner? dag.
my d6 is great eater, S3 is a picky one. His favorite veggies are Steak, Chicken. He's a meat-meat kinda guy. _________________________ Find a passion and pursue it.Fall in love.Dream Big.drink wine, eat good food and spend quality time with good friends.laugh everyday.tell stories. learn more. never give up. be grateful try new things be. happy. and above all, make every moment count.
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#79281 - 03/09/11 11:26 AM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: gr8 day 2b alive] CajunRose Member
Registered: 11/09/10 Posts: 5058 Loc: TX You're both lucky. D5 won't eat beef. S1 won't eat poultry (except for chicken nuggets from Chick-fil-A). One will eat peanut butter; the other insists on ham and cheese sandwiches. The only foods they will both eat consistently are fruits, green peas, and carrots. Very frustrating. I hope they grow out of it.
_________________________ D6, S2
I didn't recover my marriage; I recovered me.
Separated Oct 2010 Divorced Jun 2011 New journey Nov 2011 with Night + D4
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#79290 - 03/09/11 11:56 AM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: CajunRose] bustorama Member
Registered: 11/14/10 Posts: 356 Yeah, right now my D5 is my most finicky one. She would want Chicken Dino Bites every night if I let her D9 USED to be crazy finicky, but she finally grew out of it. Now she is getting more and more adventurous. She picked a lemon-lime breadcrumb crusted tilapia at the grocery store for us to take home the other day, haha. She also likes spicy black bean burgers (!!)
I still struggle with veggies for most of them, but have discovered that they will eat alot of veggies if I can smuggle them into soups. They are obsessed with soup now.
I keep trying different things til I find some miracle food they converge on. _________________________ Me-40 W-36 D9, D5, D3 T-Since 12/2001 Married-9/2004 She Moved Out-5/28/2010
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#79293 - 03/09/11 11:59 AM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: bustorama] bustorama Member
Registered: 11/14/10 Posts: 356 W texted me this AM to let me know that she had just gotten out of Ash Wednesday mass, and there was an evening one I could go to if I wanted. That I could take the old palms from behind the crosses in the house to the service and leave them in the baskets there for collecting them.
D3's eyes are quite a bit better today with the antibiotic drops. I am staying home with her until 4 pm or so, then will go for run/gym, then meeting my work people for going away happy hour for one of my minions. _________________________ Me-40 W-36 D9, D5, D3 T-Since 12/2001 Married-9/2004 She Moved Out-5/28/2010
Registered: 11/09/10 Posts: 5058 Loc: TX You have minions? Cool wink
Very helpful of your W to run your religious life for you....Divorce is okay, but forgetting to go to mass on a holy day is bad? _________________________ D6, S2
I didn't recover my marriage; I recovered me.
Separated Oct 2010 Divorced Jun 2011 New journey Nov 2011 with Night + D4
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#79295 - 03/09/11 12:10 PM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: bustorama] gr8 day 2b alive Member
Registered: 11/09/10 Posts: 1286 Loc: Brotherly Love I hope my little guy grows out of the pickiness. I rename things to their likings, eg. Sweet and sour chicken is called chicken with candy sauce.
celery with peanut butter and raisens on it is called ants on a log.
It could be worse, my friends son, as a little boy, would only eat foods that were white. I was setting in the doctor's office three years ago and reeading an article in a parenting mag and read a story about the same thing. i thought it was my friends W who wrote into the mag. Too funny.
_________________________ Find a passion and pursue it.Fall in love.Dream Big.drink wine, eat good food and spend quality time with good friends.laugh everyday.tell stories. learn more. never give up. be grateful try new things be. happy. and above all, make every moment count.
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#79296 - 03/09/11 12:13 PM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: CajunRose] gr8 day 2b alive Member
Registered: 11/09/10 Posts: 1286 Loc: Brotherly Love Quote: Very helpful of your W to run your religious life for you....Divorce is okay, but forgetting to go to mass on a holy day is bad?
I was thinking the same thing! smirk It's A la Carte! scratch _________________________ Find a passion and pursue it.Fall in love.Dream Big.drink wine, eat good food and spend quality time with good friends.laugh everyday.tell stories. learn more. never give up. be grateful try new things be. happy. and above all, make every moment count.
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#79325 - 03/09/11 01:16 PM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: gr8 day 2b alive] bustorama Member
Registered: 11/14/10 Posts: 356 Yeah, re: the pickiness and the renaming foods, I just read an article confirming what most of us probably already know -- that Dora etc. "make the food taste better." My kids get super excited when I give them DORA labeled chicken noodle soup (from Campbell's) as opposed to when I give them the regular label chicken noodle soup. And they eat so much more, request it, say it's so much better than the regular one. (I mean that's part of the appeal of Happy Meals I think too, right? Heart shaped pancakes, etc. etc.)
I like the ants on a log, and chicken with candy sauce, hehe. Might make Blue's Clue's Steaks tonight.
I chuckled when I got the txt from W re: the Ash Wednesday Mass because of the irony you guys also saw. I think I'm more detached, since I didn't let it push my buttons one way or the other and tried not to get into her head to understand her motive behind sending it. (I am going to the noon one, btw, D9 was on camera crew this AM for a school TV show so we couldnt go to the AM one based on when she had to be at school)
Edited by bustorama (03/09/11 01:21 PM) _________________________ Me-40 W-36 D9, D5, D3 T-Since 12/2001 Married-9/2004 She Moved Out-5/28/2010
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#79663 - 03/10/11 12:05 AM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: bustorama] bustorama Member
Registered: 11/14/10 Posts: 356 Went to noon Ash Wednesday mass, then quick lunch out with girls. Dropped D5 and D9 back off at school, then quick kid exchange of D3 back to W at her apt, then picked up presents and going away card for minion, then quick 3 mile run, then going away party for minion at bar/grill.
Now headed to gym for quick lift.
Edited by bustorama (03/10/11 12:05 AM) _________________________ Me-40 W-36 D9, D5, D3 T-Since 12/2001 Married-9/2004 She Moved Out-5/28/2010
Me-53 W-49 D22,D18,D15 T-Since-12/2001 Married-9/2004 She Moved Out-5/28/2010 Piecing start-04/2011 Now-together Thread http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2079304
