Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: LovingAnyway] bustorama Member
Registered: 11/14/10 Posts: 356 Originally Posted By: LovingAnyway If she brings up the calendar in person, say "You're welcome."
That's it. Stop.
Cajun is correct...don't give her the fix. Which would be you sharing you're glad she likes your gift. That's meeting the EN of honesty, intimacy...sharing your stuff with her.
OK, this is definitely the hard part for me. Because, even to strangers, I say things like "You're welcome, I'm glad you liked it."
Originally Posted By: LovingAnyway Get your nose out of her stuff. You don't know. You don't know right now. She isn't telling you why she's doing what she's doing. You don't need to know...
OK, suppose she starts trying to share her world with me again in person at kid exchanges. (again, not saying anything explicit about reconciliation or interest in R/M, just trying to open up and be intimate). Then what?
"Sorry, since things don't seem to be working out between us, I can't just be friends with you. Definitely not now, at least. I need space and time to myself to work on myself and my life and figure out what's right for me and the girls."
????
_________________________ Me-40 W-36 D9, D5, D3 T-Since 12/2001 Married-9/2004 She Moved Out-5/28/2010
Registered: 11/09/10 Posts: 5058 Loc: TX The first sentence says everything...."Since things don't seem to be working out between us, I can't just be friends with you." or, more simply "Sorry, I would have been your husband, but I'm unwilling to be your friend." (I've used this one on STBXH a few times.) _________________________ D6, S2
I didn't recover my marriage; I recovered me.
Separated Oct 2010 Divorced Jun 2011 New journey Nov 2011 with Night + D4
Registered: 08/31/10 Posts: 7915 Originally Posted By: bustorama [OK, this is definitely the hard part for me. Because, even to strangers, I say things like "You're welcome, I'm glad you liked it." Even strangers who have stabbed you in the back?
Why do you OWE her decency, when she didn't offer it to you?
Treat her as an enemy, one you have to deal with because of kids, but nothing beyond that.
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#74323 - 02/25/11 12:47 AM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: catperson] bustorama Member
Registered: 11/14/10 Posts: 356 Well, the argument has been made to me (by some people on this forum) that because *I* previously betrayed *HER* (with my EAs) that I essentially already broke the marriage contract. And at that point SHE didn't owe me decency or owe me staying in the relationship, if she chose not to. So, if she decided to leave, my appropriate plan of option was to move on and just be the best, most attractive man I could be.
Basically, it's an argument that you can't legitimately see your business partner as an enemy if they decide not to be your business partner anymore because you stole from them. You can go on and try to be a kick ass businessperson with integrity.
Edited by bustorama (02/25/11 02:41 PM) _________________________ Me-40 W-36 D9, D5, D3 T-Since 12/2001 Married-9/2004 She Moved Out-5/28/2010
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#74741 - 02/26/11 01:29 AM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: bustorama] bustorama Member
Registered: 11/14/10 Posts: 356 Went with D5 to aquarium in AM. We had fun. At kid exchange with W, she started telling me about the new paleo diet she was going to try and some other things. I nodded and mentioned another friend of mine was doing that. Got dance bags for girls' and D5's backpack out of my car and gave them to W. Told D5 I loved her and said bye. Then off to work.
Tomorrow AM I am going for a run around the bay with some running friends. It should be fun cause we are forecast to have some crazy rain, hehe. I picked up another long-sleeved tech shirt to layer for it. The only water resistant shells they had at the store would have made me look like Michael Jackson in Thriller. Don't feel like moonwalking the run.
3 calls and hangups from W tonight (2 to cell phone, 1 to landline). No VM, no texts. _________________________ Me-40 W-36 D9, D5, D3 T-Since 12/2001 Married-9/2004 She Moved Out-5/28/2010
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#74778 - 02/26/11 11:04 AM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: bustorama] LovingAnyway Board of Directors Treasurer Member
Registered: 08/05/10 Posts: 2214 I appreciate your efforts to understand boundaries and boundary enforcements clearly.
First, you were wayward in your marriage...you are not now. You have amended and continue to live your amends. You have personal redemption...and your BW chose to stay for awhile, and instead of recover, to then leave the marriage. You don't know why she chose to do so in relation to your infidelity. You changed every previous choice...you closed the void, filled the hole, built the fence...inside and out...for you and the marriage. And you've kept those changes going, solidly in place.
And your kids have your attention, connection...which is invaluable to you, I think. Your redemption has many rewards. One of them you really wanted was the marriage. Still might be one...might not.
You have the boundary of respect...so "You're welcome" isn't a toss-off...it's respectful, non-intimately honest. It IS what you'd say to a stranger.
Think about connection...strangers are people we haven't made an individual connection with yet. You open a door for someone at the store...it's a five-second connection...from your own boundary, not about them, actually.
When you add that "I'm glad you like it", you are sharing your stuff with them. It's an act of intimacy...a light one. Shares who you are with another person. It's a minuscule advance of intimacy. Not huge. More than "You're welcome."
To answer your second question, I'm quoting you from your post to Cat, first:
Originally Posted By: bustorama One is that she has said to me through most of her words and actions that she does not want this M/R. If I say to her that I am not speaking to her until she meets my requirements for the M/R, then, to me, it seems that I am essentially invalidating her (I would be indirectly pursuing an M/R, while she says she doesn't want an M/R). I do not want to invalidate her. From my point of view, if there is going to be any discussion of requirements for an M/R, it will take her saying or doing something indicating that she WANTS an M/R with me. Otherwise, it seems to me, I am basically telling her that I don't care what she wants. Does this make sense?
The second is that I want to keep communicating that this situation and the way I'm being treated in it is unacceptable to me (boundary enforcement). In a case where she was interested in an M/R, then what you say is a perfectly good boundary enforcement. But, since she has told me she isn't interested in it, I'm basically left with just removing myself from the situation and doing something else that I do want. No?
The third is that by saying I won't speak to you unless you meet my requirements for M, that also may indirectly communicate to W that I am waiting here for her to come around (low value in RobX's lingo). If I go about my business and do my own thing, it communicates that I am not waiting for her to come around, no? I will live my life.
Boundaries are really tough, because like Cat said, why treat others better than they treated you? Well...because boundaries really do take the tit-for-tat and earning-love out of the equation.
Healthy boundaries and predetermined, progressive enforcements make you embody what they are...honesty, respect, consideration, acceptance...so you become love...no earning/punishing involved.
If you stick to only taking your first boundary enforcement to stating "This is unacceptable" and do not make it progressive, then it isn't a real boundary around yourself. And I think you understand this...removing yourself, going dim, is a boundary enforcement because she continued to cross your boundary. Don't go backwards to the first enforcement. Respect she knows...she's not stupid. She can certainly treat herself as stupid...doesn't mean you do.
That would be you crossing your own boundaries. That would be manipulation not respect. You don't enforce your boundaries to get her to stop crossing them. You do it because that's your own code, what you hold yourself to doing.
Check your intent when you get blurry. We can slip back into manipulate and control (fantasy) of our long-practiced tit-for-tat, only treating you as good as you treat me distortion of the Golden Rule.
You broke free from that. When you were having the online EAs...you were justifying them based on distorted reasoning. So your clarity is really important to you. It wasn't your habit before...and it is now.
So, if she begins sharing her stuff with you, stop her. "I love the intimacy we had in our marriage where I get to know you, know your stuff. Right now, we are not intimate. I don't trust you. I know you have chosen not to work on the marriage."
You may not want to say that. You may want to simply hold your hand up and say "Parenting-related only information." Smile and then leave.
Up to you. Both state boundaries. One does it better. She attempts to do it again, hold the hand up, shake your head slowly and leave without a word said.
Does it again, hold the hand up as you leave.
Progressive. Respectful. No door slamming, dirty looks, mocking gestures, shrugs or exasperated body language.
This does require you believe she gets it and she's choosing to not respect the boundary. If you choose to perceive her as just not understanding it and accidentally crossing the boundary, you won't enforce. Which makes it about her. She's smarter than that. You were really clear. Which is why you don't repeat. She knows. Respect her. She knows.
Do you think it's okay to not trust your spouse? Do you experience her acting untrustworthy as you not being trustworthy?
LA _________________________ The Paradoxical Commandments
"It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so." Mark Twain
Registered: 11/14/10 Posts: 356 Originally Posted By: LovingAnyway I appreciate your efforts to understand boundaries and boundary enforcements clearly.
And I appreciate your efforts to help me understand them =)
Originally Posted By: LovingAnyway One of them you really wanted was the marriage. Still might be one...might not.
The same marriage, yes, but with a new relationship, not the old or current one.
Originally Posted By: LovingAnyway You have the boundary of respect...so "You're welcome" isn't a toss-off...it's respectful, non-intimately honest. It IS what you'd say to a stranger.
Think about connection...strangers are people we haven't made an individual connection with yet. You open a door for someone at the store...it's a five-second connection...from your own boundary, not about them, actually.
When you add that "I'm glad you like it", you are sharing your stuff with them. It's an act of intimacy...a light one. Shares who you are with another person. It's a minuscule advance of intimacy. Not huge. More than "You're welcome."
OK, I see the distinction. I say stuff like "I'm glad you like it." to an acquaintance, though not to a stranger. To a friend, I would go further and say something about this made me think of you or I was thinking of you, or this reminded me of when you and blah, blah, etc. So, when someone is dim/dark as part of a boundary enforcement, one should only offer respect (assuming one is being treated respectfully) but only offer the level of intimacy afforded to a stranger (i.e., non-intimacy)? Not even to an acquaintance? I guess this is the part that I don't fully understand. Why treat them as a stranger, rather than an acquaintance (familiar, but not very intimate)? Is the idea because they are violating our boundaries by leaving the marriage and splitting our family? I guess that's the part I don't understand. I obviously don't like that she is doing that, but why does she revert to stranger, rather than acquaintance, status at that point?
Originally Posted By: LovingAnyway If you stick to only taking your first boundary enforcement to stating "This is unacceptable" and do not make it progressive, then it isn't a real boundary around yourself. And I think you understand this...removing yourself, going dim, is a boundary enforcement because she continued to cross your boundary.
Yes.
Originally Posted By: LovingAnyway Don't go backwards to the first enforcement. Respect she knows...she's not stupid. She can certainly treat herself as stupid...doesn't mean you do.
Yes, I get confused when she seems to test/violate the boundaries. That's about her, though. I'm not in her head to understand why she is doing it and I see I shouldn't try to go there. Just stay in my head and keep minding my boundaries.
Originally Posted By: LovingAnyway You don't enforce your boundaries to get her to stop crossing them. You do it because that's your own code, what you hold yourself to doing.
Check your intent when you get blurry. We can slip back into manipulate and control (fantasy) of our long-practiced tit-for-tat, only treating you as good as you treat me distortion of the Golden Rule.
I think I get it, it's about I won't let myself be treated this way -- a way that makes me feel bad, used, whatever negative emotion that is alerting us some boundary needs minding (and as I get better at it, I will be able to mind the boundary before it gets crossed)
Originally Posted By: LovingAnyway So, if she begins sharing her stuff with you, stop her. "I love the intimacy we had in our marriage where I get to know you, know your stuff. Right now, we are not intimate. I don't trust you. I know you have chosen not to work on the marriage."
You may not want to say that. You may want to simply hold your hand up and say "Parenting-related only information." Smile and then leave.
Yes, I see.
Originally Posted By: LovingAnyway Do you think it's okay to not trust your spouse?
These are rhetorical, I think, but trust is essential. Isn't that a big part of the problem though? She tells me she doesn't trust me (or anyone for that matter) because of my EA's, and I don't trust her because she is abandoning the marriage, splitting the family, shutting me out of parts of her life, and I am uncertain as to what she is up to.
Originally Posted By: LovingAnyway Do you experience her acting untrustworthy as you not being trustworthy?
I think I understand that you are saying her actions are about her, and I shouldn't personalize them or accept them as being about me? Nor try to convince her/manipulate her to act trustworthy to me? I just be trustworthy and it's her choice how to act. If I feel someone acting untrustworthy towards me, I should just boundary enforce. Their choice how to act then.
Am I in the ballpark?
Edited by bustorama (02/27/11 04:03 PM) _________________________ Me-40 W-36 D9, D5, D3 T-Since 12/2001 Married-9/2004 She Moved Out-5/28/2010
Registered: 11/14/10 Posts: 356 Did 9.5 mile run around bay yesterday AM with running friends. It was alot of fun running in the rain, hehe. Afterwards, a few of us went for a post-run brunch, delicious breakfast burrito. Found out one of the guys is essentially my neighbor. Numbers exchanged, etc. etc.
Did house stuff during day, then went to an alumni B-Ball watching party. My team lost =( Hung out with new friends I've made from the alumni group and met a couple of new people. UFC fights came on after and we watched those too. BJ Penn looks like he doesn't have much left in him, huh? I think Fitch got kind of jobbed with that majority draw decision, but at least we get to see them fight again.
I accidentally rear ended someone on the way home. I was at a stop light and eased forward when the turn lane next to me started moving (I was looking at the turn lane). Next thing I know, BUMP. Luckily no damage to either car, no injury. I read somewhere that the rate of traffic accidents is much greater in people that are in the midst of separation and divorce. Add me to that statistic...
This AM I went to church. Ran into the neighbor running guy at church (how random). During service I noticed W and D's were at other end of church (it's a really big church) -- 2 weekends in a row that she has gone. After service I walked over to say hi to the girls and hug them. Poor D3 was showing separation anxiety and didn't want to hug me -- I think she was afraid I was going to take her from W. Eventually she did hug when W told her I wasn't going to take her. W said something about D3 needs to learn to trust -- elaborated to needs to learn to trust that I won't take her. D5 asked me if I was coming to swimming, and I said, no honey, I'm sorry I can't this week, but I definitely will take you next week! I told girls I loved them and said bye to W.
After church, had a great interval spinning class. I am exhausted. Am gonna go grub up and then do more housework stuff. _________________________ Me-40 W-36 D9, D5, D3 T-Since 12/2001 Married-9/2004 She Moved Out-5/28/2010
One thing I've read about kid transfers is that the parent who is relinquishing custody should drop the kid off at the other parent's place so that there isn't a sense of "taking her from W." That's not always easy to do, but something you might think about so that there's less tension with D3. That's a tough age for any girl to have to leave her mother.
You sound like you're doing most things right with W. Just remember No More Mr. Nice Guy. Don't share your life with her, and don't let her share hers with you. Just exchange the kids, be polite, and live your life. Don't let her reel you back onto Planet Fruitopia. This isn't just for you, or your kids, but for her also. She needs to deal with her issues, and if she can continually get her fix of you while still having so many problems, then you're not doing her or yourself any favors.
She feels the rope is dropped and will keep trying to lasso you! _________________________ The best things in life aren't things.
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#75170 - 02/27/11 05:10 PM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: bustorama] LovingAnyway Board of Directors Treasurer Member
Registered: 08/05/10 Posts: 2214 Originally Posted By: bustorama OK, I see the distinction. I say stuff like "I'm glad you like it." to an acquaintance, though not to a stranger. To a friend, I would go further and say something about this made me think of you or I was thinking of you, or this reminded me of when you and blah, blah, etc. So, when someone is dim/dark as part of a boundary enforcement, one should only offer respect (assuming one is being treated respectfully) but only offer the level of intimacy afforded to a stranger (i.e., non-intimacy)? Not even to an acquaintance? I guess this is the part that I don't fully understand. Why treat them as a stranger, rather than an acquaintance (familiar, but not very intimate)? Is the idea because they are violating our boundaries by leaving the marriage and splitting our family? I guess that's the part I don't understand. I obviously don't like that she is doing that, but why does she revert to stranger, rather than acquaintance, status at that point?
You determine how far into your intimate circle someone is...not them.
Any "why" question..."why does she revert" "why does she not understand" is a violation of your boundary of respect. Honesty mandates you say "I don't know her whys. I am solely responsible for my own whys."
Here's what I see:
Right now, you're forming boundaries and predetermining progressive enforcements. You did this, in part, after your EAs in online gaming. You no longer participate in online games. You enforce that around yourself. And others...you became aware and stayed aware of attention to your spouse, your kids and the marriage. You identified emotional needs you didn't meet in the marriage and you eliminated love busters you used to do.
You held to amending through new choices...you did your how and why you wouldn't attack the marriage with infidelity again.
Your BW/WAW stayed while you implemented boundary enforcements around you and the marriage. Then she walked away.
Your wife decided to no longer act as your wife, your partner. She separated from you (remind me if she filed for divorce or didn't) by having you leave the family home.
She decided to end the marriage without working on the marriage; then she acted at times, as if she wanted to begin piecing, and then acted at other times, as if she didn't again.
During those times, she literally moved from partner, to spouse, to actions to be ex-spouse, to friend, ex-friend, and in between, co-parent, non-co-parent.
She is married today. To you. Understandable that knowing this and her acting as if she is not is confusing, messy. Where to put her?
Do the same as you did with yourself...when she's attacking the marriage, she is not your partner--not someone you share with or allowed to be shared with. Not someone you go to weddings with, or do family events with. She is actively attacking the marriage until she does what you did--owns what she did, why she did it, and how and why she won't do it again.
So there is stranger, acquaintance, friend, partner...and the acquaintance, friend and partner roles have histories...or not.
At times, our friends aren't really our friends, when they aren't friends of our marriage. Same for acquaintances and partners. Doesn't change their roles, changes where you move them to during their actions, in the circles of intimacy.
You don't meet the ENs of someone attacking the marriage. You watch constantly for ways you may be attacking it yourself.
You seem to do a great job of that.
Now, about trust in marriage...
Essential? No. I was surprised to learn that. Because I lived it. Love and respect builds trust, over time. You can love and respect someone without giving your half of trust. The other half is them earning it.
It's okay to not trust your wife, Bustor. Healthy distrust is knowing they are choosing their actions, based on their choices, not in your control. And when they don't have a code they live by--are confusing, wavering back and forth, saying one thing and doing another...it's healthy to not trust them.
Doesn't destroy anything. In part, though, we are trained to believe trust is essential; if we don't have it, we aren't connected.
We are connected, affected, influenced and influencing, anyway.
Yes, you're in the ballpark very much.
Trust is built when we act to our boundaries, enforce as we promised ourselves...and become very trustworthy for ourselves.
Takes time, repetition, examination, awareness and our own goal to be trustworthy. That's when blind trust becomes repugnant, btw.
When we are focused on someone else, we aren't aware of our own boundaries...we're all over theirs, or the lack thereof. We will feel more fear, less clarity and more anger because we aren't seated where we have true responsibility.
I think it's the core of GAL, actually. To know what is yours separate from theirs. To take back your own power, in thoughts, beliefs, perceptions and perspective...that is the letting go part most of us fear.
The breaking of enmeshment.
Not to get them to notice our loss...not to get them to change, wake up or respect.
For us, to us, about us. Our choices.
Unraveling enmeshment takes time, has more to it than you imagined...to see the big chords and the tiny tendrils...an ongoing process.
Often, we experience this as the undoing of our union...where it's busting to pieces when really, enmeshment is...so that overlap distracts us.
For a healthy, vintage love...knowing where you end and your spouse begins is essential...interdependent and not enmeshed. Creates that new marriage, new relationship you really want.
And part of that foundation is knowing every word spoken, action taken by you, matters. Discerning what those are, if they are within your own boundaries, is your job, part of your goal...not dependent on her words or actions.
LA _________________________ The Paradoxical Commandments
"It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so." Mark Twain
MALovingAnyway@gmail.com
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#75173 - 02/27/11 05:14 PM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: LovingAnyway] LovingAnyway Board of Directors Treasurer Member
Registered: 08/05/10 Posts: 2214 Building trust...each time you see DD3 and hug her, without taking her with you...builds that trust.
Kudos and blessings for your deep understanding, your compassionate and aware heart, Bustor.
You'll have those bumps in the road (literally and figuratively) and some will not do the damage you feared, and others may have greater consequences. Know at all times, you are on this journey, you're not alone, and that you matter.
You're making connections...I challenge you to think of the new acquaintance as not random, at church and the alumni group.
And the rest...well, what Pinhead said.
smile
LA _________________________ The Paradoxical Commandments
"It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so." Mark Twain
MALovingAnyway@gmail.com
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#75684 - 03/01/11 02:24 AM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: LovingAnyway] bustorama Member
Registered: 11/14/10 Posts: 356 Had a good 5 mile run tonight with my group! Ran with a guy I've talked to more the last few runs and another guy I met a couple of months ago but hadn't seen since. We were cruising along and then got into a heated discussion about politics. Didn't notice it at time but we started running faster and faster cause we were fired up. When we finished and looked at the Garmin/GPS split times we all started laughing.
When I finished and got back in my car, noticed there were missed calls from W, 2 voicemails, and 3 texts. (I had been away from my phone for about 2 hours between the run, core workout and socializing). I later saw there also were missed calls on the home landline. The first two texts had kid-related questions issues in rapid succession. The third text (also rapidly after the others) said:
"You're ignoring all of my calls makes u look like a tool in front of your kids. What if it was an emergency???"
I started to text her that I had been running and was now back at my phone when another text rolled in right behind the other one:
"You are being a jerk ignoring my calls. This is exactly why I left you."
So I send two texts:
The first responded to the kid issues
The second said, "I just got back in my car. i have been at ... park away from phone running. How am I a jerk because I was running?"
W: "You are just ignoring me. I have been calling and texting you about other things and you never answer my calls or respond to me."
M: "I believe I have responded to every txt or email u sent. In the event of an emergency, you can also leave a voice mail."
W: "I have called you other times and u ignore. I am not fighting now. Sorry."
M: Thank u for saying you are sorry. Oh I see, we agreed to communicate only by txt and email and only about kid issues and finances.
W: Response related to kid issue complicates kid issue. No response re: method of communication.
The kid issue is complicated, and I am getting fed up with all the calls W has been making and now the accusations related to the calling, so I pick up the phone and call W.
(on phone)
W answers the phone and her voice is shaking, sounds like she is on verge of crying.
M : Address kid issue
W : W addresses kid issue then starts to try to talk about D3 misbehaving with her and problems at work. That she has a horrible headache things are so bad.
M : Redirect to kid issue
W : Addresses kid issue, then starts talking about how I ignore her calls and am not communicating with her. Says she has no one here anymore. Full on crying now. No one to help her. Everyone thinks she is the bad guy, my family, her family, friends. Saying how everyone thinks she is the bad guy, that I am the good guy. That they don't know why she had to leave, how she felt. That I am always smiling and happy. That she should move back to hometown where people there would at least communicate with her and help with the girls. Says she saw how I had communicated with my ex and I won't communicate with her just cause I am not getting what I want. That I am spoiled. That I am even ignoring her emails.
M : OK, I want to be very clear about this in case I was not clear before. About our communication, I only want to talk about kid issues and finances and I only will respond to texts or emails. I also would respond to a voicemail if it is an emergency--
W : But you are ignoring my emails too. You are just doing this because you are not getting your way and you don't like what I have to say. You aren't willing to talk about anything. If you don't like it, you shut it down.
M : I am doing this for several reasons, one of which happened tonight. I won't subject myself to this level of anger and false accusations anymore. Tonight, I was called a tool, a jerk, a bad model for my kids and told that I was ignoring calls and emails. In fact, I was running, was following an agreement we had, and have not yet seen the email you sent yet, which I do not doubt you sent, because I didn't check my email in the last few hours. I will check my email after we hang up.
I hear that you are sad and angry. I would be willing to talk to you about anything and everything if it was going somewhere. I wanna repeat that. I would be willing to talk about anything and everything if it was going somewhere But, as far as I can tell, this is more of the same that I set this boundary for -- me being clubbed by your anger about the past, about things for which I have already apologized, made amends, and sought solutions. Doesn't work for me to keep subjecting myself to this.
Is there anything else [about the kid issue]?
W : No
M : OK, have a good night.
Short while later,
W texts : Something additional re: kid issue. Sorry for getting upset. Feeling emotional tonight.
M : Thanks again for saying ur sorry. Address kid issue.
W : Thank you so much for [helping resolve kid issue]! D5 will be so happy!
M : Ur welcome.
I was torn on whether to call or not, but I felt I should -- not just to help resolve the kid issue -- but especially to make sure the boundary and acceptable method of communication would now be clear.
It can't be any clearer now, I don't think. Thoughts? _________________________ Me-40 W-36 D9, D5, D3 T-Since 12/2001 Married-9/2004 She Moved Out-5/28/2010
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#75699 - 03/01/11 08:08 AM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: bustorama] Coach Member
Registered: 10/12/10 Posts: 1218 Lookat how many times she says "you". She's mind-reading and projecting. Call her out when she assigns motive to "you." Let her know what you really think and do.
Call her out on using the words never and always as well. This feeds her pessisim. Pay very close attention to her words. _________________________ You must never confuse faith that you will prevail in the end which you can never afford to lose with the discipline to confront the most brutal facts of your current reality, whatever they might be.
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#75729 - 03/01/11 10:03 AM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: Coach] Pinhead Member
Registered: 11/08/10 Posts: 627 She got her fix of you; was able to vent on you; blame you for everything in her life. Also, recognize that she's using D3 in an attempt to control you.
Don't continually restate your boundary with her. Every time you do, you're just giving her the fix she craves. I would be really blunt:
"We're not in a relationship; you don't want that. So we're just coparents with the girls. Lets leave everything else out, and just have them be our focus."
And if she tries to ambush you at an exchange, be firm.
"I don't want to talk about that now."
Unless it's an emergency, don't call her back. Use email or texts to reply to child related stuff. If she brings up personal stuff, I wouldn't reply.
_________________________ The best things in life aren't things.
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#75744 - 03/01/11 10:45 AM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: Pinhead] catperson Member
Registered: 08/31/10 Posts: 7915 Are you using cozi.com for the kids' schedules?
Registered: 11/14/10 Posts: 356 Originally Posted By: Coach Lookat how many times she says "you". She's mind-reading and projecting. Call her out when she assigns motive to "you." Let her know what you really think and do.
Yes, this is one of the reasons I called because it was clear to me that she was doing this ("you are a tool" "you are ignoring me" etc. etc.). In other conversations, I have explicitly said, "Please do not put thoughts in my head. If you want to know what I am thinking or why I did something, please ask me." This seems to work well because she used to get REALLY angry at me for doing the exact same thing to her. I have noticed, though, that when we are in no contact that she seems to put negative thoughts in my head and attribute negative motive to me more and more. Like, when I am present, I can call her out on it -- challenge the negative attribution/projection. When I am not there, it seems like a runaway train sort of process - goes unchecked. And I become SATAN in her mind. The problem is that SHE needs to be the one to learn to challenge her own negative attributions and thought stop herself. Not sure how that will happen...Perhaps if I point it out to her when it does happen, she might begin tosee the pattern herself??
I agree that I should have been more explicit in this convo. That's what I was getting at when I said to her, "You said i was doing this and that and so forth. In fact, I was doing this and that and that." I should have prefaced that with, please don't put thoughts or attributions in my head...etc.
Originally Posted By: Coach Call her out on using the words never and always as well. This feeds her pessisim. Pay very close attention to her words.
Yes, she has some serious black and white thinking as well as stable and global negative attributions going on and in many different arenas (No one, everyone, never, always, etc.). She seems very depressed, and the cognitive distortions affect so much of how she views me, herself, and others. I feel helpless and frustrated, but I see that I can be challenge that process by calling her out on it when she does it. Same problem as above, though -- she needs to learn to do it for herself.
The hard part is I can only challenge her attributions in the brief times that we interact by text or email in the context of no contact. Thoughts?
Edited by bustorama (03/01/11 01:03 PM) _________________________ Me-40 W-36 D9, D5, D3 T-Since 12/2001 Married-9/2004 She Moved Out-5/28/2010
Registered: 11/14/10 Posts: 356 Originally Posted By: Pinhead She got her fix of you; was able to vent on you;
Yeah, I know. I really struggled about calling her or not, but felt I had to to be 100% sure that the boundary was clear because from what she was saying she seemed very unclear about it. I feel much more comfortable now that I have definitively restated my boundary and boundary enforcement, so maintaining dimness will be much easier. I won't have uncertainties that it was about me and my not being clear. If there are problems now, I can totally let them go as being about her and her issues.
Also -- she did say "Sorry" to me twice during the txt convo, where saying it even once is unusual for her, so I don't think the outcome was all negative.
Originally Posted By: Pinhead blame you for everything in her life.
Yeah, I think she does this whether or not I am in contact with her, heh. I just experience it when I come into contact with her.
Originally Posted By: Pinhead Also, recognize that she's using D3 in an attempt to control you.
Yes, it's kind of been like this since Day 1, hasn't it? (D3 and D5). The new twist here was directly trying to throw the guilt trip about looking like a tool in front of the girls. I really hope she isn't going down a road of talking trash about me in front of the girls for not responding to her calls.
Originally Posted By: Pinhead Don't continually restate your boundary with her.
Yes, I agree. I really feel comfortable about the boundary being clear now and feel justified in not restating it again at this point. I didn't feel that way before.
Originally Posted By: Pinhead I would be really blunt:
"We're not in a relationship; you don't want that. So we're just coparents with the girls. Lets leave everything else out, and just have them be our focus."
OK, yes. I think I would drop the "you don't want that." And I would change the Let's.... to be "I" focused:
Look, we're not in a relationship with each other anymore. I do want to be good co-parents for the girls. I want them to be our focus.
???
Originally Posted By: Pinhead And if she tries to ambush you at an exchange, be firm.
"I don't want to talk about that now."
Yeah, with LA's "stop" hand.
Originally Posted By: Pinhead Unless it's an emergency, don't call her back. Use email or texts to reply to child related stuff. If she brings up personal stuff, I wouldn't reply.
That's where I'm at. _________________________ Me-40 W-36 D9, D5, D3 T-Since 12/2001 Married-9/2004 She Moved Out-5/28/2010
Registered: 11/14/10 Posts: 356 Originally Posted By: catperson Are you using cozi.com for the kids' schedules?
I hadn't been, but will sign up for it. The schedule stuff is actually not an issue now -- the way it is setup, all kid exchanges will be at school or daycare from this week on (no face-to-face kid exchanges), unless it is some strange exception (holiday, etc.).
It may help us communicate about other kid stuff though (like the financial/purchase issue that was the issue last night). _________________________ Me-40 W-36 D9, D5, D3 T-Since 12/2001 Married-9/2004 She Moved Out-5/28/2010
Registered: 09/02/10 Posts: 12109 Your wife seems to find a lot of strange exceptions _________________________ In the depths of winter I finally learned there was in me an invincible summer..Albert Camus
Registered: 11/14/10 Posts: 356 This last week the need for kid exchanges was because the girls' school was out all week for President's Week. When school is in session, there's absolutely no reason for us to see each other. _________________________ Me-40 W-36 D9, D5, D3 T-Since 12/2001 Married-9/2004 She Moved Out-5/28/2010
Your W is expressing anxiety for losing the control of the comfort zone she has been in during your R.
All this "you" projection is testing. The Mariachis are gone, the toenails are no longer painted. There is no more massages.
Your kids are the only topic of conversation left to be conversed about.
Do not react to this "thank you, I feel so emotional today".
There is a reason she feels that way.
You're fired, if she cracks the door, you'll tell her that you have a better job now. It is about your self worth, mistakes and all.
_________________________ "A desire presupposes the possibility of action to achieve it; action presupposes a goal which is worth achieving." - Ayn Rand
Registered: 09/02/10 Posts: 12109 Great advice, Pookie. _________________________ In the depths of winter I finally learned there was in me an invincible summer..Albert Camus
Registered: 11/14/10 Posts: 356 Originally Posted By: pookie69 Busto,
Your W is expressing anxiety for losing the control of the comfort zone she has been in during your R.
All this "you" projection is testing. The Mariachis are gone, the toenails are no longer painted. There is no more massages.
Yes, the way she says some of it also sounds like she is trying to keep me in the 'bad guy' role in her mind (rather than herself, like she perceives others as seeing her), so as to justify her ongoing choices.
Originally Posted By: pookie69 Do not react to this "[sorry], I feel so emotional today".
Hmmm, I feel that I should acknowledge her sorrys by accepting them and thanking her for apologizing. It's respectful, and it's also what I wish she would do for MY previous sorrys (throughout our R, not just for my EAs). If I ignore her sorrys, it seems to be more of the same bitter grudge holding that she is doing, no? Help me see your point of view here.
And if she says thank you to me, what is wrong with your welcome???
Originally Posted By: pookie69 There is a reason she feels that way.
You mean that her feeling that way is the apple cart being overturned, right? The script not being followed? The comfort zone/rules being changed?
Originally Posted By: pookie69 You're fired, if she cracks the door, you'll tell her that you have a better job now. It is about your self worth, mistakes and all.
I sort of feel like she fired me, and she wanted to keep me around as a "manny" to kick every now and then, hehe. _________________________ Me-40 W-36 D9, D5, D3 T-Since 12/2001 Married-9/2004 She Moved Out-5/28/2010
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#76152 - 03/02/11 10:13 AM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: bustorama] LovingAnyway Board of Directors Treasurer Member
Registered: 08/05/10 Posts: 2214 Bustor,
You don't make a boundary clear by breaking it.
Your boundary to email or text only is a healthy one. For you and others. Calling her to state the boundary again, instead of emailing or texting it was "do as I say, not as I do" and that's okay, because you wanted to call her. Period.
Accepting (not approving) that we truly do what we want to do in this life...and how much we use others to justify our actions actually helps you with clarity and not doing something because of a higher payoff down the line.
Can you accept you called because you wanted to make yourself very clear to yourself? Others will cross your boundary...when you do, there's nowhere else to go. Signals are feeling trapped, painted into a corner...and you've got the brush in your own hand.
It's done. You took a lot of hits and you gave a few. Maybe you wanted to hear her two sorry "sorries" more than anything. Just a crumb of some decency for connection. You experienced those two sorries. They weren't apologies.
I remember when I was desperate for a single sorry. I'm not dunning you.
Your boundary of honesty is about you, to yourself. Own what you choose to do, why you choose to do it...what you most crave she would do...check to make sure you're doing it.
When you are...the craving for her to change drops.
She calls you a name (tool)...end the conversation. Say "I don't listen to verbal abuse anymore. Name-calling is abusive." Then hang up. No kidding. It's long over do...violates your respect boundary. When you don't state it, enforce it...then you're agreeing with it...and it makes her actions more important than yours...
and it's you doing that. Not her.
As soon as you feel justified, believe you can justify actions...then you're in her territory, not in your own boundaries. Understand it's a signal to you, from you, about you...because we lie to ourselves.
Now, what's your next progressive boundary enforcement if she continues to call, whether she leaves voicemail or not? Would you change your number and go to email only? Maybe call it online only and include cozi.net?
Enforcements are respectful. Acknowledges you do not control anyone's choices. Enforcements are your choices, predetermined, before you're appalled and upset that someone keeps crossing them. They are your safeguard...and all about you. Not them. They help you heal, act, not react...and what you most want to example for your kids.
Bet you've told your girls not to call each other names. They hear their mom call their father names...don't do that double standard, 'k? For them, until you'll do it for you.
And you wouldn't have uncertainties of it being about you when you hold to your boundaries and double-check them. Lies to self create uncertainties...going into other people's stuff (crosses respect boundary) creates uncertainties. You were clear. You state it once. Don't repeat. And don't cross your own to point out your boundary.
LA _________________________ The Paradoxical Commandments
"It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so." Mark Twain
Registered: 11/14/10 Posts: 356 Originally Posted By: LovingAnyway You don't make a boundary clear by breaking it.
Heh, I totally see this now. I see that I was being hypocritical/dishonest to myself and that I was using a glorified form of, "She made me do it!" to "justify" my hypocritical action. I see that I had alternative actions and that I was making her perceptions/actions more important than my own by "adopting" her reality.
I'm trying here, I really am!!!
One thing I've noticed is that when my emotions are running highest is when I tend to misstep in terms of things that I've learned.
I also recognize there is still that enmeshment there because I still internalize/accept her projected emotions and feel compelled to respond, refute or address them (instead of mirror them back and accept those issues as her own).
Originally Posted By: LovingAnyway You took a lot of hits and you gave a few.
Can you say a little more about what you mean by the above? What hits were given and received? Do you mean the name calling? What hits did I give to her?
Originally Posted By: LovingAnyway Maybe you wanted to hear her two sorry "sorries" more than anything.
I was motivated by wanting her stop misperceiving my actions as my being a tool and jerk, especially if she was grandstanding in front of the girls (that's what I pictured her doing), so I wanted to explain that I was not ignoring her, but adhering to the boundary enforcement I had stated.
Originally Posted By: LovingAnyway You experienced those two sorries. They weren't apologies.
The above seems like mind reading and a disrespectful judgment to me? She texted that she was sorry. Isn't it a DJ not to take that at face value???
Originally Posted By: LovingAnyway She calls you a name (tool)...end the conversation. Say "I don't listen to verbal abuse anymore. Name-calling is abusive."
Yeah, since we have had so little contact lately, I had gotten out of the habit of standing up for my respect boundary (since others don't disrespect me). I completely forgot that this was the better way to handle it -- not to try to talk her out of or convince her out of disrespecting me, as I did.
Originally Posted By: LovingAnyway Now, what's your next progressive boundary enforcement if she continues to call, whether she leaves voicemail or not?
What would be wrong with just not responding to the call? (she hasn't called since our convo). I don't want to inconvenience myself by changing my number and all that entails. I also am reluctant to cut-off calls in the event that there really is an emergency. If it got really harassing, I think I can selectively block her number, no? If I felt harassed, I would text her that if she continues to call me, I will block her number from my phone? (or would that be restating the boundary??? I would just go directly to blocking her number??).
_________________________ Me-40 W-36 D9, D5, D3 T-Since 12/2001 Married-9/2004 She Moved Out-5/28/2010
Me-53 W-49 D22,D18,D15 T-Since-12/2001 Married-9/2004 She Moved Out-5/28/2010 Piecing start-04/2011 Now-together Thread http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2079304
