He declared, yeah I don't see this working out. She's got too much anger, too much acting out. I don't see you as being alone very long, though.
He recommmended a speech along the lines of the following. (Would love alternative recommendations or edits):
First of all, I want you again to know that I am sorry how I hurt you. I've worked hard to change back to the guy I should have been all along and will keep working on being that guy. If I could, I would time travel and undo my bad actions and your hurts, whether or not we were together. I've asked you what you've wanted or needed from me to heal, and done what I've can.
I also want you to know that I do care about you and am interested in you.
BUT
I see how angry you still are at me and that you want to block me out of your life.
I see that you don't want to be with me or work towards being with me.
I see that you resent me and will lie to me to get more space from me.
I finally get it. You don't love me the way a woman should love her husband.
It's time for each of us to have that space fully. The cage door is open. You are free to go.
I don't want to be the target of your anger or resentment anymore.
Unless something changes, I agree that it's time to start living truly separate lives. I don't think it's a good idea that we spend family time together, etc. etc. (help me fill in others?)
Thanks for any input or let me know if you think the speech is a bad idea or a different speech would be better.
Edited by bustorama (12/16/10 01:37 PM) _________________________ Me-40 W-36 D9, D5, D3 T-Since 12/2001 Married-9/2004 She Moved Out-5/28/2010
Registered: 11/09/10 Posts: 6390 There are a bit too much mind reading in there.
Just agree that you don't want this anymore becuase of YOURSELF.
"You're right, you've never been the wife I've wanted or needed. And I don't know if I'll ever be able to forgive myself for not seeing this."
Sorry Pin for using your tagline. wink
_________________________ "A desire presupposes the possibility of action to achieve it; action presupposes a goal which is worth achieving." - Ayn Rand
Registered: 11/16/10 Posts: 989 Or just "This isn't working for me anymore so I agree with you taht it's best that we separate. Let's be the best co-parents we can be."
Has a separation/D been filed in this sitch?
If so, tell her you will be contacting your L if you have and etc.
Originally Posted By: believer My guess is she will need you for something within a day of you setting her free. THAT is going to be your problem.
Agreed. You must work on not be baited into any arguments/BS.
Registered: 11/08/10 Posts: 627 Since you're giving it in person, this one is just too long. Try this instead:
"First of all, I want you again to know that I am sorry how I hurt you. I've worked hard to change back to the guy I should have been all along and will keep working on being that guy. If I could, I would time travel and undo my bad actions and your hurts, whether or not we were together. I've asked you what you've wanted or needed from me to heal, and done what I've can.
But this isn't working for us. There's too much hostility and anger towards me, and it's affecting not only me and you, but our children. I think that it's in my best interest for us to live truly separate lives; and at a later date, evaluate whether we should move from our separation to divorce."
_________________________ The best things in life aren't things.
Registered: 11/14/10 Posts: 356 Version 2 (or are you guys suggesting dropping EVERYTHING before the BUT?)
First of all, I want you again to know that I am sorry how I hurt you. I've worked to change back to the guy I should have been all along and will keep working on being that guy.
BUT
This situation isn't working for me anymore. I want to be with someone who values me and wants to be with me (or does that just bait her anger????). Unless something changes, I agree with you that we should start living truly separate lives. The cage door is open. You are free to go.
I also don't think it's a good idea that we spend family time together anymore. I will always be a great dad to our girls and hope we can be good co-parents together. _________________________ Me-40 W-36 D9, D5, D3 T-Since 12/2001 Married-9/2004 She Moved Out-5/28/2010
Registered: 11/09/10 Posts: 6390 Originally Posted By: bustorama Version 2 (or are you guys suggesting dropping EVERYTHING before the BUT?)
First of all, I want you again to know that I am sorry how I hurt you. I've worked to change back to the guy I should have been all along and will keep working on being that guy.
BUT
This situation isn't working for me anymore. I don't want to be with someone who does not values me and nor wants to be with me (or does that just bait her anger????) (can't get angry for that). Unless something changes, I agree with you that we should start living truly separate lives. The cage door is open. You are free to go.
I also don't think it's a good idea that we spend family time together anymore. I will always be a great dad to our girls and hope we can be good co-parents together.
Make it all about YOU and YOUR decision.
_________________________ "A desire presupposes the possibility of action to achieve it; action presupposes a goal which is worth achieving." - Ayn Rand
Registered: 11/16/10 Posts: 989 Originally Posted By: bustorama
First of all, I want you again to know that I am sorry how I hurt you. I've worked to change back to the guy I should have been all along and will keep working on being that guy.
BUT
This situation isn't working for me anymore. I want to be with someone who values me and wants to be with me (or does that just bait her anger????). Unless something changes, I agree with you that we should start living truly separate lives. The cage door is open. You are free to go.
I also don't think it's a good idea that we spend family time together anymore. I will always be a great dad to our girls and hope we can be good co-parents together.
Registered: 11/14/10 Posts: 356 Thanks so much for all the input guys. Can you explain why cross out these?
1) I want to be with someone who values me and wants to be with me. (to indicate what is not working anymore?)
2) I have decided that I want to live truly separate lives. (to indicate what my solution for me is to "This not working anymore is"?)
3) I think we should stop with the shared family time. My IC had suggested putting that in to indicate the family time should stop, we really should live separately?
Thanks again for your help, I really appreciate. _________________________ Me-40 W-36 D9, D5, D3 T-Since 12/2001 Married-9/2004 She Moved Out-5/28/2010
Registered: 11/09/10 Posts: 6390 Originally Posted By: Soleil Originally Posted By: bustorama
First of all, I want you again to know that I am sorry how I hurt you. I've worked to change back to the guy I should have been all along and will keep working on being that guy.
BUT
This situation isn't working for me anymore. I want to be with someone who values me and wants to be with me (or does that just bait her anger????). Unless something changes, I agree with you that we should start living truly separate lives. The cage door is open. You are free to go.
I also don't think it's a good idea that we spend family time together anymore. I will always be a great dad to our girls and hope we can be good co-parents together.
Girl with very few words, aren't you? wink
I guess this conversation with you would take 15 seconds. Time well spent. grin
_________________________ "A desire presupposes the possibility of action to achieve it; action presupposes a goal which is worth achieving." - Ayn Rand
Registered: 11/08/10 Posts: 2324 Loc: Tennessee Does she ever call?
I prefer "organic" communication (no technology including paper), but you have to know what your principles are and the gist of what is crucial to pull that off.
For me, that came when my wife was calling even though she didn't want to be married "because we can still be friends".
That's when it just came spilling out for me: I get it, you don't love me the way a wife should love her husband, but we most certainly are NOT going to be buddies because I cannot imagine--for the life of me--a future Mrs TimeHeals saying, "Honey, let's invite ex-Mrs. TimeHeals over for dinner". It's just not going to happen, but that's alright with me.
A note didn't work out well for me. I'd sent a few sentences, and I got a small novel in response just re-affirming whatever she was basically saying all along despite what I sent, so I am not sure she really got it until I just told her, and she could hear that I was serious.
Edited by TimeHeals (12/16/10 03:38 PM) _________________________ Your Time Perspective Can Heal Mend the broken, make strong the weak and vanquish the evil.
Registered: 11/09/10 Posts: 982 Most of us are just like you, Busto. We want to get everything in the speech that we can. But, really, how much needs to be said that she doesn't already know?
I think Soliel is right - straight to the point. Lay it out there for her and leave it. I know any time I get long winded with my W I end up stumbling all over myself trying to explain why I said this or that, what I meant was, here's what I was trying to say....you get the idea. I have got the best results by keeping it short and sweet and walking away before an argument can start. Of course, I then fail to follow through. That's where I have screwed up and need to man up and actually do what I say.
Short and sweet and let it sink in to her. She knows.
Good luck.
IDU _________________________ M 11yrs. Together 16yrs Twin S 11 D 7 S 5 Me 44 W 37 Bomb Sept. 09 She moved out 7/17/2011
Registered: 11/14/10 Posts: 356 OK, so re: anticipated questions
I guess ideally I would be able to walk away without getting drawn into big convo
but what about stuff like
1) Do you intend to file now?
I will consult with lawyer regarding my best options.
2) Are you dating/going to date?
I am not dating anyone yet vs.
I'm not sure why you would care or think that is your business?
What other questions sometimes come up so I can be prepared? _________________________ Me-40 W-36 D9, D5, D3 T-Since 12/2001 Married-9/2004 She Moved Out-5/28/2010
Registered: 11/16/10 Posts: 989 First, let me say when I edited what you wrote, I envisioned you saying these words to her verbally, not via text/writing, etc.
Originally Posted By: bustorama Can you explain why cross out these?
The reason for the cross outs is because the extra words are unneccesary, IMO. It's succinct and to the point and when you tell her "this is not working for me anymore, you are conveying ALL of this:
I want to be with someone who values me and wants to be with me.
I have decided that I want to live truly separate lives.
I think we should stop with the shared family time.
The less you say, the more it gets her thinking and gets the point across that you mean business, aren't waffling anymore, aren't "waiting" for her anymore to make a move. This puts you in the position of leading, of taking the bull by the horns, of letting her know you won't accept the relationship as is anymore.
Do not, for the life of you, mention a cage door being opened because it just brings images of a trapped animal ready to scurry away from her captor. Do not go there at all, as much as you like.
Pookie, the less said, the better in this case. Especially when the other party has already stated numerous times she is done.
Registered: 09/02/10 Posts: 12109 I wouldn't worry too much about the wording or anticipated questions because the problem is most likely going to be YOU.
My guess is that the Mrs kind of likes her life like it is now, with you jumping through hoops to meet some of her needs. She isn't going to give that up easily.
Registered: 11/16/10 Posts: 989 Originally Posted By: bustorama 1) Do you intend to file now?
I will be reviewing my options including contacting a lawyer.
Originally Posted By: bustorama Are you dating/going to date?
1. I have not decided that yet or 2. I am not dating at the moment but I may in the future.
Than walk away with your head held high. Find your favorite song on the radio and crank it up, baby.
smile
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#37156 - 12/17/10 12:38 AM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: Soleil] bustorama Member
Registered: 11/14/10 Posts: 356 Hmm, I just thought of something prompted by a msg that Gucci posted.
When W and I first met, she said one of the things about me that most attracted her to me was that I "did not put up with her shinola." That I stood up to her. I guess she had been able to steamroll previous boyfriends and "did not want to be with them."
It makes sense from that perspective, then, why my allowing her to dictate the circumstances of her leaving and supplicating was as ineffective as it was.
Later in our relationship, unfortunately, that part of me became perceived as constantly controlling her -- a negative -- and even scary.
Edited by bustorama (12/17/10 01:01 AM) _________________________ Me-40 W-36 D9, D5, D3 T-Since 12/2001 Married-9/2004 She Moved Out-5/28/2010
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#37157 - 12/17/10 12:43 AM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: bustorama] TimeHeals Member
Registered: 11/08/10 Posts: 2324 Loc: Tennessee Quote: Later, unfortunately, that part of me became perceived as constantly controlling her -- a negative -- and even scary.
There's an important yet fine line between confidence and arrogance, eh? _________________________ Your Time Perspective Can Heal Mend the broken, make strong the weak and vanquish the evil.
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#37158 - 12/17/10 12:50 AM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: TimeHeals] believer Member
Registered: 09/02/10 Posts: 12109 For most women, a condition of love is that they respect their man. We don't want someone that we can walk over or steamroll.
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#37178 - 12/17/10 02:00 AM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: bustorama] LovingAnyway Board of Directors Treasurer Member
Registered: 08/05/10 Posts: 2214 Bustor,
I'm working through the posts on your thread.
Going back to
Originally Posted By: bustorama RESULT? "We are not in a relationship."
"I hear you saying do not want to be married to me right now."
You can validate without agreement. You are married. You know you're married. Hand back her wishes as wishes. Don't refute them. Her statement is blatantly not reality based, 'k? Don't encourage crazy, let it stand as it is.
Originally Posted By: bustorama W said: "I am afraid of you."
"I don't understand. I want to understand. Are you afraid of me finding out what you're doing? Are you afraid of my judgment of your choices?"
Don't ask if you really don't want to know. If you just want her to not be afraid, please don't ask.
Originally Posted By: bustorama "I do not want to work on this relationship."
"Am I hearing you correctly, that you don't want to work on your half of our marriage, you don't want me to hold you accountable?"
Her statements are conflicting and sound crazy. They totally negate reality. Sounding confused wouldn't be difficult...each time she says relationship, you say marriage in your rephrase, to confirm or clarify.
You're seeing her internal conflict spoken to you...as if she's fighting you. Don't take it that way.
Here's where you buy the whole crazy package:
Originally Posted By: bustorama Yes, her fear of getting back into a relationship with me might be very real. I get that. And it would be possible to be scared of getting back into a relationship with me, yet still enjoy the fruits of my reconciliation labors.
When you go into her thoughts, you go into crazy. Put it down and back away.
You are married. To each other. Her fears, as you said, are hers. You get that. Don't go any further. When you go further, you're going into guesses, trying to see through her eyes...like a reasonable DJ. There are no reasonable DJs.
All you're really doing is going into crazy with her.
Originally Posted By: bustorama I have gone with that for some time so she knows that I can bear fruit and am willing to bear fruit, but it is not good to do so indefinitely. Not healthy for me, not healthy for her, not good example for our kids. And, moreover, she has never consistently told me she wants a relationship.
You've gone with her crazy for some time and it violated your boundary of honesty. Put down the fruit.
She doesn't have to consistently tell you she wants a relationship with you. That's your job to tell yourself what you want, what's your goal. It's about you, not her.
She's messy and you're taking her mess as yours. It's not. Your goal is clarity. Don't go into her messy. I think that's what is driving your indecision...still based on her crazy thoughts and actions day by day, her lies to herself and you say "Don't lie to me. Crosses my boundary."
She wants to cut off, control and hide from others who she has allowed influence in her mind. The FB symbol...she doesn't cut you out of her real life, just on FB...she sorts folks on FB like it's real life.
Don't go into crazy no more, 'k?
You were honest about checking her FB...that's great. Finally. Because you want to stay connected to her and the girls, because you're married and you are living separately.
Understand that's the crazy part...that limbo.
She will reach to justify her lies by your past actions. Don't buy into crazy. You validated really well. Do not go further and excuse. Thing is, you're not asking her for what she requires of you to amend the past. You want her to lay out her plan for her to heal from your infidelity. Ask her for it.
Consider it, if she gives you that information. If she doesn't, do what you have refused to do...tell her what you require of her to continue the marriage.
That's the missing step...going reactive to reactive is messy, buys into all the crazy stuff. Stop, center and know what you require of her to not divorce.
That she move home, act from transparency, honesty, commit to 20 hours a week just one on one, no kids or distractions. No more "we" talk...only "I" statements. That you will call her on her dishonesty and want her to call you on yours, daily.
Make a deadline.
Just as other posters have said, this is really about you, what you're doing, wanting, requiring and not really telling her...your dishonesty in lying by omission.
You know not to react to her statements. You react, anyway. You build up to honesty instead of act from it first thing, right away. She's doing the same and that's why you don't enforce around yourself.
You lay out what you require of her and give a deadline. You get your L, know the steps to file and very best actions to get primary custody of your girls. That deadline you give her is about you...not to get her to do anything. It's how long you give yourself to realize you keep making this about her, not you.
Where you don't have power or control...no matter how consistently she says you are controlling, stalking, etc. You do hold her accountable for her choices and actions.
You aren't holding yourself accountable for yours.
You don't do any of this to get some peace...you will find peace as part of the outcome.
You do this as the acts of respect for her choices having their own consequences, equal to your own.
Only way to get yourself back to reality, out of the crazy, is to get yourself out of thinking her thoughts, reasoning her reasons, going into her beliefs and experience.
Not being sucked into crazy is your choice. Every thought you choose...that's your power. Where your thoughts go are your choice. Think of crazy as the drug she's taking...that's attacking the marriage. Don't take the same drug, 'k?
Stay clean and go for clear.
Know that you ARE a good experience, 24/7. You were her better drug for many years. You liked being her drug and she was yours. Until you didn't, and looked for another drug to take.
Clean and sober is respectful. Neither of you are drugs...you're both human beings. Treat her as the capable, whole individually separate human she really is...know she can work out her own stuff.
Your job is to work out your own. That's your plan. To ask for hers, to ask what it would take, and to give her yours.
Yes, we really are back to "I'll show you mine if you show me yours." It happens.
See, at no point do we really let our spouse go or stay, it's always in between. Our spouse can go at any time during our whole marriage, whether we let them or not. We sure can experience our marriage as if it wasn't a daily choice.
It was. It is. Injecting respect from your end, knowing this was reality all along stops the buying into their stuff. Respect sorts out your stuff from hers...stops the reactivity and enmeshment. It's the foundation for a great marriage and a great divorce...your choice.
You don't have to solve her crazy...nor understand it. Acknowledge by handing it back for clarity. So you are really clear on crazy...and are sure you're not participating in it.
LA _________________________ The Paradoxical Commandments
"It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so." Mark Twain
MALovingAnyway@gmail.com
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#37225 - 12/17/10 09:23 AM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: LovingAnyway] bustorama Member
It's interesting that back on DB, one of the first things that Puppy Dog said to me, was to be very wary for my W using my past boorish behavior to justify any of her own "wayward"actions. It's interesting that she did exactly this not only re: lying about FB but back in July when I confronted her about her cell txting.
I'm in a very strange place. Reeling from acceptance and crazy sleep-deprived, BUT feeling my power come back, as I see that I DO have great power. Complete control of MYSELF, IF I am honest with myself.
I need to get some sleep and emotional rest so that I am in clear mind, calm mood and strong resolve for my move.
Since I called out W on the FB lying, she hasn't called or texted much. I saw her briefly at D5's school Xmas party (where I noticed her watching me as I talked to another set of parents, I then introduced her to them as my W). She txt'ed me yesterday to remind me we needed to get a gift certificate for D5 and D2's teachers. She also called me at one point earlier in week to tell me about her progress with getting insurance evaluated for the car. That conversation was after the FB lying, and she was acting as if nothing had happened. There had been conversation by W on Sunday (pre lying incident) about going to eat dinner together Tuesday night and then take girls to see Santa. Tuesday came and went with no mention.
Earlier in the convo in which I called W out on her lying to me about FB, she had invited me to go to her apartment Xmas party later today with the girls. She talked about how our couple friends would be there, how their kids would be there, that I was on the lease anyway, and "that they gave a raffle ticket to each person that came for free rent." (ulterior motive???)
My IC joked to me, hey if you win the raffle that's community property. Not sure if the invite is still there. If it is, I'm torn on going. I am inclined to say:
W, I have been doing alot of thinking about this situation. I've decided not to come to the party and instead will decorate the house with the girls.
General thoughts?
Edited by bustorama (12/17/10 09:24 AM) _________________________ Me-40 W-36 D9, D5, D3 T-Since 12/2001 Married-9/2004 She Moved Out-5/28/2010
Me-53 W-49 D22,D18,D15 T-Since-12/2001 Married-9/2004 She Moved Out-5/28/2010 Piecing start-04/2011 Now-together Thread http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2079304
