Registered: 10/16/10 Posts: 59 I will also say that "snooping" does have an emotional effect on you as well. If you find something out, it's going to hurt and if you don't find anything you MIGHT feel guilty.
If you can pull it off knowing this then by all means do it.
However, the "Let them go" speech and delivery could work just as well and save yourself from the emotional roller coaster ride of knowing if there is someone else.
Think about it for a bit and way the pro's and con's for YOU. Ultimately, your goal right now is to work on reconciling, but if she is just outright disrespectful and punishing you for the past, then maybe she needs to FEEL what it's like to not have you around.
Registered: 11/14/10 Posts: 356 This AM we met for D2's gymnastics class and D5's dance class. W rolled in with little ones 40 minutes late to the 1-hr gymnastics class (wtf?). She said they had had a slow morning getting out. W wanted to get her car taken in for oil and cleaned. I offered to help transfer crap from her cat to mine, but W suggested I play with kids instead since I wouldn't see them rest of day. So, she transferred crap. After gymnastics, I secured car seats and took D's to meet W at oil place.
W acted scared of me several times during morning. On arriving, "Is it ok that I was late, are you mad at me." (Nope, I'm just chilling here with D9). Later, I took W's Ipod Touch away from girls cause they were fighting over it in car and said I don't think the Ipod Touch is a good idea right now. W took it personally and said, "I'm sorry." I said, "Oh I wasn't saying you did anything wrong at all. I'm sorry if it came across that way." She still looked scared to me and I said, "I'm not mad at you, W. Really." At end of time together, D5 and D9 were fighting with each other and I was tired. W said, "Are you mad at me? It seems that you are mad at me." I said, "No, W. Thanks for telling me how you were feeling, but I am not mad at you in any way. I am tired of the girls misbehaving, but in no way am I mad at you." When she told me she had booked her ticket to go to Christmas in her hometown, "Are you mad at me?" I said, "I am disappointed, but I am not mad, and if that's what makes you happy, that's what I want as well." Then she said, "It doesn't make me happy, but it would make me more comfortable cause I think I would be EXTREMELY uncomfortable going to Xmas at your family's given the sitch." I said, "I get it, if that makes you more comfortable, I agree that's what you should do." I think some of this stuff is residual from her mom and that damn abusive boyfriend of hers interacting with my past irritability when we were together. (The alternative possibility is it is guilt/shame from a hidden A I guess). She seems to perceive anger from me all the time even when there is none there.
Overall, though, the time together was alot less tension-filled than the previous 2 weeks which was good for the Ds and for us. She showed me her groupons. She had bought me a groupon to do a bootcamp and suggested we work out together during the work day. She said she wished this place that she had bought a groupon for was open so we could go there for lunch. She also said she wanted to meet me at spinning tomorrow AM.
One interesting thing she said in regards to Christmas is after she said the thing about not coming cause of feeling uncomfortable there. She also said it was a "test" for herself to see how it was going through a holiday without the girls. _________________________ Me-40 W-36 D9, D5, D3 T-Since 12/2001 Married-9/2004 She Moved Out-5/28/2010
Registered: 11/14/10 Posts: 356 OK, any idea of how long it takes to install webwatcher from purchase through download to completed install (like how much time would I need with the laptop?). Does it need lots of configuring? Or can I put it on the same CD as photoshop and install it at the same time?
I'll have a very limited amount of time in which to install.
Re: the snooping -- Faith, I think I would feel better knowing definitively if there was or wasn't something there, especially since it completely changes how I would act. You also may remember early on in our sitch (June/July) I suspected an EA and possible PA and confronted her on it, and I remember those feelings. If I knew definitively, the panzers would roll. _________________________ Me-40 W-36 D9, D5, D3 T-Since 12/2001 Married-9/2004 She Moved Out-5/28/2010
Registered: 09/02/10 Posts: 12109 No limit on what it will allow you to see, read, or hear.
After 7 days it just stops working. Totally invisible as in, if you forget your password or don't write down the file path, you will NOT get back into it. It's that covert!!
Thousands of screen shots every day because it takes one EVERY time the mouse is clicked, the Enter key is hit, or every minute. It captures all text, audio, chat, web, visual, etc.
It doesn't send you a reminder, it just simply hides. No icons. Nothing. _________________________ In the depths of winter I finally learned there was in me an invincible summer..Albert Camus
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#34519 - 12/12/10 09:57 AM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: believer] bustorama Member
Registered: 11/14/10 Posts: 356 Originally Posted By: MedC
I am curious about how your view your wife at this point. At one point YOU were talking about putting a kelylogger on her computer. Why? She had a right to leave and begin her life anew. Why would you interfere? I admit that I have not followed your situation closely. Someone asked me to take a look, so here I am.
Anyone has the right to leave any relationship, yes. I guess the issue in my case is that W has not fully left her relationship with me to start a life anew in the sense that she:
1) Refuses my offers or suggestions to divorce 2) Relies on me for numerous emotional needs 3) Relied on me to financially support her and the separation (rent, all expenses, etc.), until I put that boundary in place. 4) Invites me to do things with her (and girls) 5) Has said she doesn't know what she wants/is confused/etc re: marriage.
then on top of that, there is the issue of 6) Our kids and my wanting to ensure I've done everything I can to pursue the possibility of a reconciled family for them.
So, I am in a "limbo" world. If part of what is making her resistant to fully reconciling is the presence of an OM, then a keylogger could help detect that. If she was fully seeking a new life and not keeping me on the hook (allowing myself to keep myself on the hook), then I would more gracefully step aside.
If you are going to leave a relationship, then truly leave it and do not keep the person you are leaving on an emotional tether.
Originally Posted By: MedC
I am curious by what you mean about being addicted to online games. How does one become addicted to these things?
For some it is the game itself, for others it is the social aspect of massive multiplayer gaming leading to virtual relationships with both same- and opposite-sex strangers, for others it is the opportunity to escape/distraction from an unpleasant real-life situation. It is, unfortunately, a very powerful phenomenon. There are others on this forum in which compulsive online gaming was a part of the M deterioration (not unlike compulsive Facebooking).
Edited by bustorama (12/12/10 09:59 AM) _________________________ Me-40 W-36 D9, D5, D3 T-Since 12/2001 Married-9/2004 She Moved Out-5/28/2010
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#34522 - 12/12/10 10:31 AM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: bustorama] Medc Member
Registered: 08/31/10 Posts: 5195 You are responsible, 100%, for what YOU allow to happen in your life. Your wife is not keeping you a tether, you are. I think on some level you get that.
YOU have no right to put a keylogger on your wife's computer. She left you 7 months ago and inasmuch is free to date as she so pleases (IMHO).
Set appropriate boundaries...have an adult conversation with her...but do not violate her yet again. Just my thoughts. _________________________ It's not who you are underneath, it is what you do each and everyday that defines you.
Don't go shaking the HO tree and expect an angel to fall out.
medcmbers@zoominternet.net
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#34524 - 12/12/10 10:35 AM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: Medc] Medc Member
Registered: 08/31/10 Posts: 5195 On top of all that, you would be committing at a minimum ONE felony and most likely two.
_________________________ It's not who you are underneath, it is what you do each and everyday that defines you.
Don't go shaking the HO tree and expect an angel to fall out.
medcmbers@zoominternet.net
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#34525 - 12/12/10 10:37 AM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: Medc] bustorama Member
Registered: 11/14/10 Posts: 356 Originally Posted By: Medc You are responsible, 100%, for what YOU allow to happen in your life. Your wife is not keeping you a tether, you are. I think on some level you get that.
Yeah, getting that more and more. That's part of my motivation for posting the breakup list actually.
Originally Posted By: Medc YOU have no right to put a keylogger on your wife's computer. She left you 7 months ago and inasmuch is free to date as she so pleases (IMHO).
I guess here's the issue. When my W moved out and we discussed the idea of dating. I said, I do not intend to date. I also said I do not want to be in an open marriage and if I find that you are dating, then I will file for divorce. I also would want you to tell me if you are dating or intend to date." My W then said, "Are you serious? I'm not going to tell you if I am having an affair."
I took from that convo that W did not intend to date and viewed dating in our current sitch as affair-behavior, which led me to see us as being in a commitment of some sort to one another while separated. If she now is dating secretively and denying it when I ask her directly, saying she is not doing anything "wrong like that," would you still say she is justified to do that? Even when I suggest we get divorced and move on with our lives?
Originally Posted By: MedC Set appropriate boundaries...have an adult conversation with her...but do not violate her yet again. You also may be committing a felony or two.
Not saying that a keylogger is "right or wrong," but do you EVER view installing a keylogger on a WAS or WS as justifiable (not calling my W that, talking about the conventional WAS/WS where there they have not been betrayed)? In the mind of the WAS/WS, they are moving on to a new life for justified reasons. It seems to be a common recommendation on these forums.
Edited by bustorama (12/12/10 10:58 AM) _________________________ Me-40 W-36 D9, D5, D3 T-Since 12/2001 Married-9/2004 She Moved Out-5/28/2010
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#34544 - 12/12/10 11:10 AM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: bustorama] bustorama Member
Registered: 11/14/10 Posts: 356 Quick update:
W called me last night. Said she had just been rear-ended in parking lot. I ask if everyone is OK. Yes. Thank goodness. How can I help? W asks me for non-emergency police department number. Says the other driver has apparently sort of hit and run. Had stopped and called a a friend who came out of store and then the friend told W where to park so they could exchange insurance, etc. When W parked there, both friend and driver were gone and never came back. I gave W # and asked if she wanted me to come down there to help out. She said yeah. I drive down there with D9 and stay with D2 and D5 while W goes looking for "the friend" in strip mall. W locates friend who works in nail salon. Friend says she will call the hit and run driver to come back that she had stopped.
Police arrive and start taking report. They go to nail salon to find friend because hit and run driver still hasn't appeared. Nail salon has closed one hour early. No one is there, hmmmm....I stay until police report finishes and say bye to Ds and W. W says bye to D9 but not to me, she is texting away on phone as I leave and also was at one point while we were waiting for police turning the screen away from me.
Later that night, W thanks me for coming down there and helping out.
This event sort of got me into the mindset of thinking about how I am keeping myself on the tether. I felt like crap when I left and W was so busy on her smartphone that she didn't say bye to me (and yet did say bye to D9).
Edited by bustorama (12/12/10 11:11 AM) _________________________ Me-40 W-36 D9, D5, D3 T-Since 12/2001 Married-9/2004 She Moved Out-5/28/2010
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#34556 - 12/12/10 11:36 AM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: bustorama] believer Member
Registered: 09/02/10 Posts: 12109 Yep, you have been demoted to her "friend". Well, sort of. Actually she is more interested in whoever she was texting.
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#34558 - 12/12/10 11:38 AM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: bustorama] Larry Member
Registered: 09/03/10 Posts: 5375 Loc: Texas
I am late to the party. I won't stay long. I see no reason to add to the great advice you are getting.
She is having an affair.
Buy and read the book advertised Here!
All you need to know. Do it today if your local bookstore has it, otherwise order it and read upon arrival.
Larry _________________________ It's often the truth we hide from ourselves that causes the most damage in life.
Registered: 08/31/10 Posts: 5195 Yes, I do think there are some situations where installing a key logger is worth the risk.
In your situation, your wife left you as a result of your affairs. She has a right to live her life and date whoever she darn well pleases at this point. You have a right to not be part of that equation.
While you would like for her to tell you if she is dating, she is under no obligation to do so. If she had not left you, despite your affairs, I would be giving you different advice.
As it is, IF you spy on her, your behavior would likely fall into the category of stalking (among other things).
_________________________ It's not who you are underneath, it is what you do each and everyday that defines you.
Don't go shaking the HO tree and expect an angel to fall out.
Registered: 09/06/10 Posts: 1388 Loc: Gateway to the West Originally Posted By: Medc Yes, I do think there are some situations where installing a key logger is worth the risk.
In your situation, your wife left you as a result of your affairs. She has a right to live her life and date whoever she darn well pleases at this point. You have a right to not be part of that equation.
While you would like for her to tell you if she is dating, she is under no obligation to do so. If she had not left you, despite your affairs, I would be giving you different advice.
As it is, IF you spy on her, your behavior would likely fall into the category of stalking (among other things).
I agree with this.....
Not _________________________ If you aren't being transparent, then you aren't being authentic. If you aren't being authentic, then you are being a hypocrite."
Registered: 08/31/10 Posts: 5195 Bustorama, there is no need to take my word for it...if you have an IC or an attorney, run by either or both of them the idea of a key logger or GPS. See what they say.
The therapist is likely to turn the focus on you...the attorney will warn you that you are committing serious crimes that can and will come back to bite you. _________________________ It's not who you are underneath, it is what you do each and everyday that defines you.
Don't go shaking the HO tree and expect an angel to fall out.
medcmbers@zoominternet.net
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#34621 - 12/12/10 01:03 PM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: Not2fun] LovingAnyway Board of Directors Treasurer Member
Registered: 08/05/10 Posts: 2214 Bustor,
I'm really glad you're back on MA, updating us.
I don't agree with the IC about you encroaching on your wife's parenting back in the restaurant, when DD5 was acting out. Separation/Divorce has this element...you are no longer parenting...you are separate parents. Still the same kids. Yet when you're together with the kids, it's back to parenting. Very tough balance.
Might be how you expressed what you saw, the tone? Because "DD5 seems to really want your attention right now, and only yours" is honest. She can hear "You fail as a mother all the time." Not what you said.
smile
Thing is...what are your boundaries around yourself? Your DD5 was acting out and then your wife was...what's your enforcements for that that?
Same for the wedding weekend...weddings, old friends, family always brings up very old FOO stuff...you realized that. May have seemed about you, your choices, what you said or did. Most of it wasn't. That part [censored] no matter when it happens. No comfort there...exclusion or cause. I think you'd rather be the cause...then you could be the cure. I read your update that way.
You were present for it. You looked out for the kids...they aren't the bother you may have thought...because it was their experience, too. Keeping them away from her lousy behavior, protecting them results in similar actions, much different feelings in yourself.
Don't focus on her choices...saying goodbye or not saying goodbye. Can be like a knife you repeatedly poke yourself with. Ask yourself why you might want to do that.
Tell us your code, what you were choosing from as you went to her and the kids in the parking lot. Did you speak up about the texting, sharing that you felt ignored, used? What about picking up the kids as soon as you arrived, saying that you know she can handle the situation but that you were taking the kids to your home and to call you when she was finished?
Were you looking for it to be a bonding, supportive experience? Which made the outcome worse?
Don't stick around for bad behavior. Look out for the kids first...because she's ignoring them, also, with her phone. Hurts them like it hurts you--I think that was the signal you were getting when she didn't say goodbye to you and did to DD9. Don't buy into this sham that she's being a great mom. She really isn't. Because her focus is elsewhere.
Let her deal with her own drama, Bustor. She creates and maintains it...can become a drug. And like any drug-user family knows, it trashes all her relationships...even with the kids. They hurt, too. They pick up on all her emotions and yours.
If your boundary is to not have relationships without honesty, then enforce that boundary. Right now, she's not being honest. You don't want to date her when she isn't transparent. I'm glad you asked about who she was texting at the wedding. You can survive her anger, just not her deception. And you know from the parking lot, she doesn't pick her "friends" well...that's good to know.
You're a great influence on her if she allows you to be. Seems she's cutting you out of that for now. Next help-me call, you will handle differently. Your focus on the kids, not her, how whatever she's asking affects your children. Even as you committed to offer and be taken up on your offer to go to where she was, doesn't mean you stick it out, no matter how she acts. It's not all or nothing...well, you went so you're stuck. Maybe that's the tether you experience. You tether yourself to the whole experience instead of seeing where she crosses the boundary and then you don't enforce.
LA _________________________ The Paradoxical Commandments
"It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so." Mark Twain
Registered: 11/14/10 Posts: 356 Yes, thanks all for the generous feedback. I think at this point I most of all need to stop, take a deep breath, and not act out of emotion. A bit rudderless on plan after that, though, and would appreciate further feedback. I've gotten such a variety of advice.
1) Keep amending, be there, you have to be there since you weren't there before to regain her trust that you will keep being there.
2) Drop the rope completely. It's what she wants, give it to her -- healthy for both of you. You also don't have the right otherwise give your past behavior.
3) Act as if there is an affair and try to bust it to get that enemy out of the picture
etc...
_________________________ Me-40 W-36 D9, D5, D3 T-Since 12/2001 Married-9/2004 She Moved Out-5/28/2010
Registered: 11/14/10 Posts: 356 Originally Posted By: LovingAnyway Bustor,
I'm really glad you're back on MA, updating us.
And I'm glad, as always, for everyone's feedback.
Originally Posted By: LovingAnyway Might be how you expressed what you saw, the tone? Because "DD5 seems to really want your attention right now, and only yours" is honest. She can hear "You fail as a mother all the time." Not what you said.
I really do experience it like that. That I say one thing and W hears another (because of her issues/past? and possibly, in part, OUR past?). She views me as a judgmental/hypercritical person and hears most of what I say through that filter. I don't know of anyone else that sees me that way, not even my ex-W. The problem is, while it's not what I intended or, in my estimation, said, it's what she hears. It's like walking on eggshells trying to say things so she won't hear things that way. What's the alternative?
Re: boundary enforcements, when I am with D5 alone, there are firm boundaries and she acts out less. The problem is when W and I are together, D5 doesn't seem to "respond" to the boundaries in the same way. She fights so hard for our attention (and perhaps because of her anger about our situation).
Re: my W acting out, in the dinner scenario, what would be a suggested boundary? "I won't be with you and keep coming out for dinner if you keep talking to me this way, especially in front of the kids?" and then leaving? When I do that, she has started to say that I am "controlling" and not letting her "express herself." I guess, again, her issues?
Originally Posted By: LovingAnyway I think you'd rather be the cause...then you could be the cure. I read your update that way.
Yeah. Frustrating when things important to you are outside your control. Damn fixer in me.
Originally Posted By: LovingAnyway Don't focus on her choices...saying goodbye or not saying goodbye. Can be like a knife you repeatedly poke yourself with. Ask yourself why you might want to do that.
I guess that's detachment, huh? I need to get to that. Sometimes I have it, but she can push my buttons through her choices and make me feel like I did something wrong, like I am a bad person. Oh, look what I just wrote. She's not making me feel that way. I'm allowing myself to feel that way because I am focusing on her choices and letting them affect me that way. Got it.
Originally Posted By: LovingAnyway Tell us your code, what you were choosing from as you went to her and the kids in the parking lot. Were you looking for it to be a bonding, supportive experience? Which made the outcome worse?
Ya, I wanted to help my family, make sure everyone was ok. See if I could assist with any of the police matters. Be there to support my W and reassure my Ds with my time and presence. W's preoccupation with self and phone hurt outcome as did, I guess, my focus on (attachment to) W's choices. Ds were happy I was there =)
Originally Posted By: LovingAnyway Did you speak up about the texting, sharing that you felt ignored, used?
Well, it seems every time I say something about texting she goes berserk, calls me controlling, intrusive. There was another time early in our separation when I said something about feeling used and she almost tore my head off ("nothing I do is ever good enough for you" "don't come out here saying you're going to help if you have expectations about something."). I should be able to say that stuff to her, though, right? Alternatively, what about the idea of giving without expectation? This is just doormattishness, no?
Originally Posted By: LovingAnyway What about picking up the kids as soon as you arrived, saying that you know she can handle the situation but that you were taking the kids to your home and to call you when she was finished?
Good idea, logistics might have been tough in this particular situation, but I get the bigger msg.
Originally Posted By: LovingAnyway Don't stick around for bad behavior. Look out for the kids first...because she's ignoring them, also, with her phone. Hurts them like it hurts you--I think that was the signal you were getting when she didn't say goodbye to you and did to DD9. Don't buy into this sham that she's being a great mom. She really isn't. Because her focus is elsewhere.
Yeah, I really need to bail when she is giving CB and disrespecting. In some ways she IS a very good mom, but in the sense of meeting the kids' needs when the kids need it (rather than when she chooses to give attention) and in modeling good behavior around them, emotional self-control, she's definitely not. It is true that the behavior of D9, D5 and D2 are all going downhill and they are hurting.
Originally Posted By: LovingAnyway If your boundary is to not have relationships without honesty, then enforce that boundary.
with honesty AND, I would add, respect. What about her idea that it isn't my business who she is texting? That it isn't my business to be her friend on facebook. That my desire for honesty/openness is simply a desire to control her. If those things bother me, that openness is a boundary of mine, and I persist in the relationship after voicing it, then that's my fault, right? If she tells me these are unreasonable, controlling boundaries -- that we are separated and she is choosing not to be with me and I am pushing her away by asking these things. Again, her issues? I just enforce my boundary if it's my boundary? ARE my expectations controlling?
Originally Posted By: LovingAnyway Next help-me call, you will handle differently. Your focus on the kids, not her, how whatever she's asking affects your children. Even as you committed to offer and be taken up on your offer to go to where she was, doesn't mean you stick it out, no matter how she acts. It's not all or nothing...well, you went so you're stuck. Maybe that's the tether you experience. You tether yourself to the whole experience instead of seeing where she crosses the boundary and then you don't enforce.
I think that's spot on about what has been going on recently. Things start out on the "right" side of my boundary and at some point in the experience, things cross my boundary. I feel [Bleep!] and don't enforce because she is yelling at me when I enforce. I don't need or deserve that. Need to behave accordingly.
_________________________ Me-40 W-36 D9, D5, D3 T-Since 12/2001 Married-9/2004 She Moved Out-5/28/2010
I think that what you do should be based more on how your wife is acting/reacting these days, and not so much on any fear of an "affair." First, forget the keylogger. Regardless of its felonious nature, it's just inappropriate since she's not living under your roof.
Second, she's completely unreceptive to any attempts to satisfy her ENs. In fact, unreceptive is an understatement; every attempt since you started trying this different tactic has backfired, and she has responded with more CB than ever. So in the spirit of not doing what isn't working, stop giving her attention. I know, easier said than done; but it's for your own mental health.
Third, I sent you a link the other day to Al Turtle's post about how long to wait before letting the relationship go, and moving on. Your wife moved out quite a while ago, and seems to be making no real progress with her own demons; instead blaming you for most of her problems. I know you've thought a lot about your sitch, given it a lot of time to really figure out what you own, and what she owns.
But as you said, you're in Limbo. You're still SATAN to her, and that doesn't seem to be changing. Think of what she's told you about how the house makes her feel. You've worked your ass off to become a good man, a good father, and you've bent yourself into a pretzel trying to accomodate her.
I'm not sure she's having an affair. She might be, with someone at work, as that wouldn't take up much free time. Or, she might just be done with you, and not know how to cope without taking a flamethrower to the family. Maybe she's in her own limbo, not knowing how to get out. It doesn't really matter, and isn't where you should be focusing yourself.
Your IC has told you that these are HER issues. That SHE needs to fix. You're not the source of her problems anymore; you're not abusive, you're thoughtful, considerate, responsive to her needs. But it's not working.
After a while, it doesn't matter what you're doing, if it hurts you. And you seem to be reattaching instead of detaching. Easy to do when the holidays drum family incessantly. But watch out for Busto. Don't tolerate her CB towards you or your daughters, even if it makes her angry. The three little ones are watching you, and when they see you put up with one of her rants without standing up for yourself, it's sending them the wrong message.
Take the next two weeks for yourself. Get ready for your Christmas trip, and let her deal with her own demons. Be civil with her when it's a kid exchange, but don't let her take advantage of your good nature to fill her ENs when she wants you. Don't call/text/email to take her temperature. Stop serving her Angel Food cake. You know she's cake eating, and it hurts you when that happens.
Think about how long you want to stay in your sitch. How much you can personally take, how much your daughters can take, and be realistic. You've been doing this a long time, been successful with a lot of personal growth, but everyone has a limit. I'm not saying you need to dump her ala Gucci, but you definitely need to limit your exposure, go "dim" until you've decided whether to continue the way you have been, or to tell her you're moving on.
_________________________ The best things in life aren't things.
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#34703 - 12/12/10 04:34 PM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: bustorama] LovingAnyway Board of Directors Treasurer Member
Registered: 08/05/10 Posts: 2214 Originally Posted By: bustorama It's like walking on eggshells trying to say things so she won't hear things that way. What's the alternative?
I'm hearing you're frustrated, well-acquainted with not being able to control how your stuff is perceived, is that correct?
You repeat back what you hear her say..."Did you just hear me say that I don't like the way you are parenting right now? I'd like to understand what you heard."
You remain clear, focused, calm and not assume her stuff. Go for understanding what she hears, not making her hear differently. Don't wait. If your real goal is to strive to understand, then be understood, do both parts. Emphasis on asking for clarification or confirmation of what she heard.
You don't have the power to change her filter (you already know that...lifelong thing)...you have the responsibility to show the filter, both yours and hers.
My suggestion is that you do this with everyone...your kids, coworkers, extended family and friends...because it's been a source of powerlessness in your life. And you're powerful. Practice, practice, practice.
Yes, DD5 is acting out when you two are together...in her world, you are SUPPOSED to be together...instead of her learning different ways to act when she's with one of you and not the other; and vice versa. She can get your boundaries (and choose which to cross when) with you...and she can get her mother's boundaries (and choose which to cross when); she used to have you both, together, under one roadmap. At her age, the roadmap was something she was trying to figure out--how to act, who to be, what was safe.
That roadmap has been torn in two. She's going to act out. What you want to model for her is how to state her stuff, not demonstrate it. That will help her a lot. Give her the same tools you gave yourself...see where she's reaching for enforcements...first attempt at attention, then she does <blank>. See if she's stating what she wants at that time. Doesn't get what she needs, then she escalates, like a progressive boundary enforcement...begins acting out, trying to TAKE attention away from others. She's trying to see where she ends and others begin...how much she can control and cannot. Celebrate her!
Give her healthy boundary enforcements...what she controls...she chooses to comply or not. She chooses to remove the gift of herself through silence, no eye contact, no touch, sing to herself, take herself away from pain. See all her efforts not as you in control of them. See what she's trying...what she believes works and doesn't work.
About her. Acknowledging her struggle...very much parallels your own, too. You can help each other.
Her acting out and then Mommy acting out reinforces both really get your attention; DD5 can read your emotions, when you're hurt, angry, frightened. Just like you can read hers.
She can believe she broke you two up, like breaking up the dinner. Ask her.
She may feel like she's the glue and if she gets it just right, she'll hold you guys together...which means on the flip side of that belief, she is powerful enough to break you apart.
I'm concerned about DD9, Bustor. You don't report what she's saying/doing. I know you're there for her...tell us about her statements, what she shares or doesn't share.
Btw, you might relate more to DD5 right now because when you're facing the loss of what you most treasure, that's about the age we can be inside...when trauma and fear rise up. Understanding her helps you...and helps her.
I like loving boundaries more than emphasizing firm ones. You love your children hard...when you slack on boundary enforcements with them, it's about them, not you. Your boundaries in parenting still go around you...and we tend to place them around our "future kids"...who we want them to be when they grow up, what we want them to learn. Right here, right now, consistently enforcing boundaries with them helps you to do so with everyone, even WW.
Boundary when WW was acting out, "You are crossing my boundaries of respect and consideration right now. I want to know what you're feeling instead of being shown. If you choose not to tell me, and continue to show me, I will remove myself and take the children with me for 20 minutes until we calm down."
Then you do. First boundary enforcement is always stating the boundary(s) being crossed. Then informing what action you require of yourself. Then taking it.
Same with kids. State the boundary...makes you identify which ones...what we skip over when we sloppily label "misbehavior"...without identifying what boundary.
You don't have to guess (again) her issues. They are hers. Just like she can DJ your words, through her filter, so, too, can she do so with your actions. Not in your control. You aren't doing it to get her to stop. You enforce to cut off your experience of her not stopping.
Tough to express...I appreciate very much you working hard to understand me.
Kernel of truth in her perception...you are being really controlling...of yourself. Enmeshment means she's still over here, in you, and feels that control. Still not about her. She has opportunity and information. What she does with it is hers.
Your job is to provide opportunity and information. That's in your boundaries of respect, consideration, acceptance and honesty.
Don't damn the fixer in you. It's what DD5 is wrestling with right now. Love that fixer, figure out when he was born in you and for what purpose. I guarantee it was from love, before you knew what love was...he wants more control than he can have, to make the world happy, not sad; heal pain and create safety for everyone. He didn't go away as you grew older, understanding your limits, and everyone's limits...he comes to you when you're closest to him, when you struggle with pain and fear. Because he's part of you, which is love. Your job is to assure, hold and acknowledge him. Not react to him.
Just like DD5. She's making her own little girl fixer right now.
You are so powerful you even permit your spouse to push your buttons. Move your buttons. Understand how your spouse also blames you for pushing her buttons. Enmeshment...work to understand it. It's an illusion that worked really well in your marriage until it blew it apart.
Too much or too little...you now want healthy connection, not unhealthy enmeshment. And what you're doing right now IS changing that. Every day, you get to retrain your brain away from unhealthy and more toward healthy.
This is great...you listened to yourself and really heard...remember, you have an internal filter, too...made up of all your experiences...and you broke through that old filter and saw what you were doing. Which wasn't what you wanted...and you got it. Caught it. Keep catching it...did your pain and fear signals dropped right after you caught yourself?
You did support your WW and the kids by being there. You didn't fix anything. Didn't have to...you showed up. Really get how important, significant that is...understand that if you were to chosen differently, enforcing your boundaries of respect and consideration, by leaving when she began the ignoring (you know how DD5 felt at dinner that time), that you are still supporting your WW and your kids.
Do you believe that the intent, benefits of an incident and your actions regarding it, can be wiped out by your behavior later in the incident? Might hear "Oh, great...yeah, you did the right thing and then you went and ruined it."?
Listen to know what kept you there, knowing she was crossing boundaries. Could it have been, "Haven't been in this situation before, don't know what to do?"
Don't doubt the "I'll always be there for you" with your children IS choosing to accept WW's call, showing up. That is what that statement means. Doesn't mean "I'll always be fixing for you."
One can hide within the other.
Like marriage...our real vow to ourselves was that we would go through whatever comes, together. Doesn't say "In sickness, I'll make you well. In bad times, I'll make them good."
In parenting, we often confuse marital vows with parental ones..."I'll protect you from harm, hurt, fear, anguish." Our real vow is that we will "Be there when you experience harm (and be your second set of eyes to foresee it); I know your hurt, fear and anguish; your joy, delight, your knowledge. I'll go through it with you."
Which is why we often feel the same feelings of those we love...from that promise. Not a thing about cause or cure...or control. Presence.
About doormatish...depends solely on you. Are you giving to get? Keeping with the same flip side of tit for tat? Or are you showing up because that's who you really are? Keeping promises you made to yourself? Your intent is your choice. Same for your expectations.
And expectations are premeditated resentments.
She can DJ your actions, your words. That's hers...not about you. That's her choice. Her stuff...her thoughts, beliefs, perception and perspective. Says a lot about her. Nothing about you. In your marriage, enmeshment allowed her to define you and you to define her...the crossover that comes about when you stop defining yourself and hearing her define herself. It's comes from practice...defining her "self" when you're really upset about her actions. Same for you...when she defines YOU instead of your actions.
Clear up those lines. You are not allowed to define anything about her. You are responsible for defining her actions in regards to your boundaries. She's your equal...she's not defective...she chooses her thoughts, beliefs, perception and perspective...just as you do. When you don't really get the impact of what you are inherently responsible for, you will continue to take her defining you, and define her back.
You didn't clarify your intent when you offered to show up for her situation. You said it was to be there to support her and the kids. Was there a hidden expectation in your offer? Check yourself. It's your job. Small amount of attention, gratitude, connection? Because what she did was not acknowledge (maybe at first?), wasn't grateful (maybe stated it when you arrived?), and disconnected.
Doesn't make you going wrong...was in your code. Not giving to get...or was there a piece of that?
When you become in the habit of total self-honesty, you will have different feelings result. No doormat anywhere...because doormats have expectations...continuing more of the same beliefs that led to the destruction of their marriage...giving to get/tit for tat. Earning love and punishment.
Earning loving responses. Not real or true. Not reality. Sure can experience life as if the are solid beliefs. They give us that experience...which is that love is a power struggle.
There is no earning in acts of love. Not punishment or love, fidelity or infidelity; not AO's or words of admiration. No earning there...simple choice. What you choose to act from is inherently yours, at all times.
Sounds like repeating it to death will make it real. It already is real. Very tough to break the habit of earning/deserving when you've been living from that fantasy all your life. Do it anyway. Living in that belief predicates your choices on her possible response...and others. Your kids. Doesn't respect they are choosing or not choosing (still a choice).
Violates your boundary of respect...where you know everyone is equal to you, in every way, even if you don't experience them that way, or yourself.
She can go berserk, call you names...speak from respect, anyway. Don't stay present for name calling, acting out--that crosses your boundary. You're the new sheriff in town, new rules (boundaries) and new enforcements. No doormat in that. You will FEEL very much like a doormat when YOU break your own promises of what you will do, in the order you promised yourself...which are enforcements.
Not because of the outcome (you don't control that)...because you didn't do YOUR half, and you betrayed yourself again.
Do you have the boundary of honesty? Then share what you experience right then with her. "I feel shut out and used right now. I had the hidden expectation in my intent to support you that you wouldn't turn away from me and to someone else."
Own your own stuff first. It's part of why you feel shut out. That's good to know about yourself. Get closer and identify where your hurt/anger is coming from in you...I think this relates to you wrangling the kids during the wedding, too. Once you get to your own expectation, see if it crosses a boundary or is just resentment from you acting to get her to act differently.
Self-image speaks doormat, from control and manipulation.
Real self speaks love, owns actions, choices, respects separateness, equality, offers lessons in every moment, for us to learn.
You'll know because you may crave your WW learning.
smile
You didn't do something bad or wrong. You aren't bad or wrong, can't be. You're you. Don't make yourself into an object (doormat) that you cannot possibly as a human being. Then you won't stay present when others attempt to do that.
First enforcement, state the boundary crossing (CB=Crap behavior), and if she chooses to continue, what you will do and for how long. Second enforcement is you stating she crossed again and then keeping your promise to yourself, to remove for 20 minutes, which is how long it takes to get YOUR emotional drug releases to end. Then return your presence.
That's the difference between control and ownership. See, a drug is released in your brain when you feel fear/pain, and another (adrenaline) from the anger which comes close on the heels of the primary emotion. Takes between 10 and 20 minutes for the chemicals' effect to stop (unless you brew and rehash, go back over the boundary violation, which keeps them being released).
Ownership is not about controlling someone else. Acknowledges your own emotions, vulnerability to act out yourself, fight back, to hurt someone else to make them stop hurting you. Old stuff. No longer in your permissions.
If she continues to AO (acting out, angry outburst), then you state the crossing again and tell her you'll be back in two hours. Take the kids with you both times, if they are present. What isn't approved for you to experience, isn't approved for them to experience.
Your kids need to know they can do this, too. Their behaviors are going downhill, as you said, from pain, fear, confusion, frustration and anger. They don't want it to be this way. They are young and their wishes sound like mandates to them...to fight what is right now, to fix/change, control what they cannot. Their feelings of helplessness, powerlessness are signals to you, too, to show them their power and limits. Model in action, share what you're learning with them. Even DD2...you wouldn't believe what she's taking in right now, the beliefs she's already forming.
About her thinking it's none of your business what she does. You're married. State that. "Everything you do affects the marriage. Same for me. Because we're married. When we are divorced, you're correct, what you do that doesn't affect our children won't be a concern for me."
About you and your beliefs. She's telling you hers, what she wished were true...not reality.
Can you understand the tiny bit of truth in her seeing your actions as an effort to control, manipulate her? In your marriage, were you striving to make her happy, secure, in love with you? Was that your intent, earning love?
Was that honest, respectful, considerate? Intent is invisible to everyone but you. What we act from determines what we experience and how we experience it. On the outside, which your WW is, looks the same, can feel the same...especially when she is assuming instead of asking to know.
Enmeshment was how you put your stuff onto her, and she put her stuff onto you, which works in the good times...gets you deposits from admiration, appreciation, affection, attention, connection. So you think it works, that it's how to live. In the rough times, when you both are pointing at the other for not treating your stuff you entrusted to the other right, and begin punishing each other to get them to treat your stuff right, while you mistreat their stuff that you hold, all falls apart. Not a way to live at all.
We focus on the mistreatment as why that system of marriage fails. It's not the mistreatment...it's the dishonesty.
It's that you are holding, owning, what cannot ever be yours...and she is doing the same.
We can experience giving away our stuff; we really can't. It's ours. Not in reality when we do that.
And we do it because we believe that is what intimacy is...and it isn't. It's an extreme. It's giving to get and tit for tat...from control, to control the marriage and our experience of it.
We lose the loving feelings from our own acts of love...'cuz our stuff is over there, out of our control. Understand it never left you...or her. True intimacy is knowing and owning your stuff...and sharing it with your spouse. Not putting it in their hands...telling them about it.
See, we acted out in this way, permissions to do so in the good times and in the bad...permissions go both ways, all the time. Can't just regulate the good from the bad experience. They are active from your beliefs.
To revoke your permissions, change your beliefs.
Every single act from love your wife did during your marriage was a gift. You couldn't coerce her into those actions. Same for you. You couldn't be coerced. You both were gifts to one another, yet because of your beliefs, you experienced each other as not gifts.
So if you acted from control, and you know you did, and when you did, and when you stopped...then she's not crazy to see you as controlling, not loving.
You're loving now...there are still tendrils of control trying to get you to make yourself safe from HER control, her choices, changing her actions. That's helpful to see, to know, understand.
When you make the habit of choosing to act from love (which doesn't have expectations, has consideration), you will experience her actions differently.
She hasn't changed her beliefs...you have. Makes sense she still sees your actions as from the same intent. Her choice of intent remains the same.
Bustor, when you enforce, and she yells, you state why you're removing your presence and when you'll be back. You won't be there for further yelling.
That's why you feel like shinola. Because you don't remove yourself...and you're focused on getting her to stop yelling. Tree in the forest, sir. Remove yourself. Calm down. Validate and get your signals. Breathe. Come back. She continues, you remove yourself again.
You won't feel at all like shinola, I promise. This is love. Acting from love. Same with your kids...every enforcement is from love of them and yourself. It's what you now live from, instead of control.
Understandable you'll feel a lot of doubt from fear (control comes from fear, not love), confusion, blurred lines and self-punishment. You were living in that all your life, from your choice of beliefs.
Now you aren't. Transition time. For you. About you. If you refuse to acknowledge how impactful, significant, important your very presence is...before you say or do anything...you won't enforce. You're discounting your presence in yourself, dismissing it.
Stop that. smile
LA
Edited by LovingAnyway (12/12/10 04:54 PM) Edit Reason: messy stuff, more than usual _________________________ The Paradoxical Commandments
"It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so." Mark Twain
Registered: 10/16/10 Posts: 59 Originally Posted By: Pinhead
But as you said, you're in Limbo. You're still SATAN to her, and that doesn't seem to be changing. Think of what she's told you about how the house makes her feel. You've worked your ass off to become a good man, a good father, and you've bent yourself into a pretzel trying to accomodate her.
I'm not sure she's having an affair. She might be, with someone at work, as that wouldn't take up much free time. Or, she might just be done with you, and not know how to cope without taking a flamethrower to the family. Maybe she's in her own limbo, not knowing how to get out. It doesn't really matter, and isn't where you should be focusing yourself.
I agree PH.
Busto you have done the work on you and you have been fantastic at being a Rock, but it isn't working.
I truly believe she will not change until she feels YOU have let go of her CB/Drama. That means establishing a boundary and following through on enforcing it.
She already gets mad as hell, so let's say you go "dark" or "dim" and she spews anyway, what's going to be different?
I think no matter what, you have showed yourself in a "good light" and have taken responsibility for your faults in the M. Now it's time to not allow yourself to be disrespected and GIVE her the gift of really seeing what life without the NEW improved Busto will be like. As long as you keep being there for her, the less likely she's going to finally look within.
Registered: 11/14/10 Posts: 356 Wow, lots of very thoughtful feedback for which I am very grateful. Need to read, digest, reread and contemplate a bit before commenting on them.
In meantime, quick update re: yesterday (before I received yesterday's msgs):
Went to W's in AM with D9 to drop off stuff for D2 and D5's swim lessons. W was cleaning place, seemed a bit harried. Greeted and played with little ones a bit. W starts getting stressed they are going to be late. I ask how can I help. She asks me to help get little ones dressed while she finishes cleaning. I put little ones in trunks and get their swim bag together. I ask W shall I put them in your car? She says yes. I do.
W, very agitated, asked me why I hadnt called, said she was feeling anxious that I was there, I hadnt told her I was coming. I said I was sorry she felt anxious, those were her feelings, that I had called and texted to try to give her a heads up, but no answer. W says, oh I see it's my fault, always my fault. You will never understand my anxiety, never have. I said I didn't say anything about fault, W. Help me understand your anxiety. Is there anything I can do? W kind of glared at me, said bye to D9 and left apartment to take little ones to lesson.
I decided not to attend lessons given the exchange, worked on project with D9. W calls me near end of lessons to tell me how well D5 is doing in lessons. W seems less anxious. I say to W, I would like if you helped me understand your anxiety better and let me know when there is something that you would like me to do or not do. W said, let's not talk about it. I said ok. W said she is hungry. I said, how about we have lunch together, in the mood for some mexican? W says yes. I suggest one place, she counters with other. We agree to meet up there.
Get there. First 5 minutes of lunch, W is kind of "tight," seems guarded, moody. I remain upbeat. Interact with kiddos. At some point (also after eating, maybe she was hungry), W's demeanor starts to change and she gets more positive. We end up having a really fun lunch. Kids happy, us happy with kids. At one point W and little ones were face to face, nuzzling and kissing. She was looking at me out of corner of her eye the whole time she was doing this, repeatedly, lots of eye contact over several minutes. I was smiling (really beaming) at her. Said how much I loved seeing them so happy together, how beautiful she and they all looked in their happiness.
Table next to us commented on how happy our girls seemed. What a beautiful family, etc. etc.
Anyway lunch finishes, I say, I had a lot of fun W. W says yeah, what a fun lunch, thanks. W asks me if want to go with her to look for the woman that hit and ran her. I laugh and say, sure, let's find her and hang her high.
After dropping off D9 at ornament Xmas party, meet back up with W and younger D's. I drive us out to parking lot. We case the nail salon joint. We spot the friend of the person that hit her (note, LA, the friend is the friend of the person that hit her, not W's friend). THEN W spots the woman that actually hit her, she works in the same place! We are excited and laughing. W calls cops. While waiting for cops, W says let me tell my friend that we found her! She couldnt believe it when I was texting her about it yesterday. She, in fact, IS texting her GF (and I guess night before had already been texting her GF for awhile before I arrived and they were more or less continuing convo after I got there).
Cops pull in like something out of the Rockford files (not sure why so aggressive). Big scene ensues with whole nail salon coming out, giving W the stink eye, the woman who hits her looks like she is trying to amble away, and I start shadowing her across the parking lot. Must have looked ridiculous. W asks me if I can talk to the cops and the ladies, that I am good at that stuff, I remember better. Eventually, with cop, I get all the insurance info and I take pictures of the woman's bumper that hit W. I also talk to cop, get his incident report #, get the insurance info from the lady and take pictures of the scene of the accident. Basically, try to be helpful H, W takes care of the little ones. W says she is glad I came, am I glad I came. Yes, of course, I had fun being with her. We go to DQ and get some ice cream with girls to celebrate nabbing the hit and run person. I say no one messes with W and gets away with it. She seems amused. I say how fun it is hanging out with her and girls that I wish I had done it more before.
After DQ, we stop by Costco to pick up a couple of things for each of our places. On way driving home, she asks me to rub her back a bit, and I do (while driving). At some point during day, W shows me the groupons she has bought, including one to a bootcamp. I throw out we should do one of those together. W says yeah, we should do it during the workday. Pulls up schedule to see when they are and when we can do it.
After I drop off W and girls, W calls me up and asks if she can take D9 (her SD9) to Nutcracker with D5. I say, I think that would be great. W says she wants it to "start a tradition." (not sure how that will be a sustainable tradition if we stay split up?).
W also suggests we go to dinner at the Indian groupon place on Tuesday and go see Santa at the mall.
W calls back later and says she forgot she also wanted to know if I wanted to bring me and the girls to her apartment Xmas party. Says our couple friend will be there with their kids, the food they had, raffle, etc. Says, I mean you don't have to come if you don't want, but you are technically on the lease so you can. (what does this lukewarm invite mean to you guys??? I couldn't decide if she was minimizing the significance of the invite for me, minimizing her risk in making the invite, minimizing my expectations re: the invite or what?). I felt kind of turned off by the invite and asked her straight out, would you like for me to come. She said yes. I said, Of course I will come then. I love spending time with you, and it sounds like fun.
So, in the AM, W was very anxious, perceiving me in negative light. By end of day, after lots of EN meeting, W seemed more comfortable with me. At end of day, W initiated a couple of future pro-family ideas. I've been here, done that though...At some point, I need to see W really changing too, progressing, and not more relapses to CB.
One significant lowlight, re: dishonesty/deception, at one point mid-day, I asked W if it had been different not getting on FB anymore, with her account deactivated. At first she said, yes. I did not say anything and after a pause, she said, well, I do login from time to time at night and then deactivate it when I'm done (this is not true, her account has been activated consi
Me-53 W-49 D22,D18,D15 T-Since-12/2001 Married-9/2004 She Moved Out-5/28/2010 Piecing start-04/2011 Now-together Thread http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2079304
