I just realized that my thread is missing several months of journaling I was doing in another forum, so I will be adding that here in case it is useful for others. Sorry the formatting may be a bit hard to follow.
Pinhead Member
Registered: 11/08/10 Posts: 627 Interesting that both of our wives have recently apologized for not being better wives.
One thing you and I have talked about is when trust seems to be a huge issue (really, just fear of being hurt again), is pulling back the right approach? Is (what DB'ers call) the LRT the right technique? Or is giving more attention, more WoA, quality time, etc a better approach, once some of the WW's anger has subsided? _________________________ The best things in life aren't things.
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#21937 - 11/15/10 02:26 PM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: bustorama] gr8 day 2b alive Member
Registered: 11/09/10 Posts: 1286 Loc: Brotherly Love Quote: In parallel, I have worked on becoming more of a Rock to her emotions.
AWESOME! She wants to know you will be strong enough for her. She said she's scared of coming back home, Nice job validating her feelings on this matter. She wants/needs to know things won't ever get back to the way they were.
Keep showing her a better you. _________________________ Find a passion and pursue it.Fall in love.Dream Big.drink wine, eat good food and spend quality time with good friends.laugh everyday.tell stories. learn more. never give up. be grateful try new things be. happy. and above all, make every moment count.
Registered: 11/14/10 Posts: 356 Hehe, Pookie. re: Mariachi band. I've been watching your sitch and hoping things will regain traction and turn back around.
For you MA'ers, I got my balls busted pretty good on DB site because I went overboard being oversupplicating (offering footrubs, making parsley tea, etc. sometime in August). Posted a joke msg after that in which I got a Mariachi band to play her Candela and other stuff (FROM MY HEART!!!).
Anyways, W is in the midst of coping with the 'time of the month' -- she is very stressed about her work, her application for a new position, and some wedding-related obligations (her cousin's W is upcoming). I have validated and tried to be an ear and a cheerleader. I went to W's work with D's last Fri because they were not going to get to see each other otherwise. We all had lunch together (the Italian girl who took the order was kind of flirting with me while I was ordering -- 'you're a doctor, hmmmm??? mmmm, so young for a doctor, mmmmmmmmmmmm. Kind of awkward.) Anyways, lunch was fun, she introduced me to all her co-workers as "my husband," which actually surprised me because I have been introducing her to people simply as her name or even as my D's mom. D5 had a bunch of birthday parties this weekend, and I took her to store to pick out gifts and had her make the cards for the parties as an AoS for W.
Lunch was fun, then I coached D5's soccer practice (which W came to). Saturday, I coached D5's soccer game, then lunch at usual sushi place with whole fam, then we attended a birthday party of D5's friend together. W commented that I was being all social (when we first met I was social and sort of withdrew as I got depressed and into gaming). On way to drop W and D's off, I overpursued -- I started flirting with her, then we started talking about Vegas and I said something like it would be fun to take a trip to Vegas the whole crew in the spring or summer. She said that she felt a ball of anxiety, that she didn't want me to act like we were together, that she didn't know what she wanted. I backed off and thanked her for sharing her feelings with me, that I wanted her to feel free to tell me how she felt. When we got to her apartment, she kept asking me if I was going to join them the next day for another birthday party. I said smiling to her, you have fun with me, eh? And she said almost sheepishly, yeah, just not with pressure.
Sunday AM, ran for 70 min -- first run over an hour since I started back up. It went well and I'm surprisingly not sore today even though it was a hilly 70 min. I get out of shower and W is calling me asking about the party. She says she is on her way to pick me up (I hadn't ever asked to be picked up???). Good thing she called though because I was on my way to the wrong place and at the wrong time. W picks me up and teases me some. W is stressed some by D's behavior at party (Chuck E Cheese), but gets through it. I meet some of the other parents while there; overall, we end up having a good time.
On way back, I drive by a house to get W's opinion on paint job for the house (they have stonework similar to the house, and I am getting the house painted). W says she likes the one I have looked at as an example. She has been referring to the house more lately as the [street name] house and Our House instead of as Your House. She was calling it Our House alot when talking about the painting and new hardwood floors that I am looking into.
W laments over weekend about her low self-esteem; about feeling bloated, fat, and unattractive; and about feeling overwhelmed with work. I validate and listen, ask her how can I help. She mentions having to get bra and shoes for herself for wedding and not knowing how she will be able to do it with little D's. I offer to take D's so she can shop. She says she also wants to see D's and suggests instead that I go shopping with her. I say, yeah, we can have dinner afterwards. So, we're doing that later today.
She also wants me to go to her work on Wednesday to meet some more of her co-workers and to have lunch together (?????). All of this while insisting we are not a couple, while saying we probably will spend Christmas apart, and talking about something in January under the assumption that we will still be living apart in January.
In non-R news, my college buddy will be back in town again this week (for good). We're gonna go out Wed night, and I'll probably have him over to watch our alma mater's hoops game Tues night. My running is still going well, and I'm getting some of these home improvement projects off the ground with bids, etc. Window delivery/install has been delayed until Dec. 2 which is a minor chafe.
_________________________ Me-40 W-36 D9, D5, D3 T-Since 12/2001 Married-9/2004 She Moved Out-5/28/2010
Registered: 11/09/10 Posts: 6390 Originally Posted By: Pinhead Interesting that both of our wives have recently apologized for not being better wives.
Do you know why they have done that?
_________________________ "A desire presupposes the possibility of action to achieve it; action presupposes a goal which is worth achieving." - Ayn Rand
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#21958 - 11/15/10 02:50 PM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: Pinhead] LovingAnyway Board of Directors Treasurer Member
Registered: 08/05/10 Posts: 2214 Wowsers, Bustor...thank you so much for being here and posting!!!
You're doing exceptional work on yourself and it really shows.
Couple of things popped out at me...asking her what you can do now...when you know you're already doing a lot right now.
When she says she fears and you validate that she fears, share your fear, too...how you have made new boundaries for yourself, extraordinary precautions (no gaming, doing the steps, knowing that distraction was your mistress and the other EA's were fantasy)...repeat them as necessary. Let her fear. Don't fear choosing differently because you ARE different now.
Also, her unbecoming negative behavior was about you. See, you replaced her with other women...which really wiped her out of existence. That's the self-esteem, I think, that she's talking about. Sharing your stuff..."I have always found you beautiful and no FB pix is ever going to do you justice, IMO" would be great. If it's true.
smile
Her unbecoming behavior with the neighbors and perceived rejection was classic...it was about you. Her fear that you would flake from being this awesome husband and father...wishing she already had her trust rebuilt, skipped to a secure future...and not seeing where she was doing some of it herself, leaving her phone in the car, cutting off communication, if you will. She got that later, btw. Trust me. It's where her statement about wishing she'd been a better wife.
You're still in amends mode...center yourself there. You really get what you did, why you did it, and how and why you won't do it again. You see your D5's experience as a natural consequence to your past behavior. You did great validating her, so she shared with her mom, too. That's awesome.
Your shrug wasn't. It was awful. Stay assertive and honest. "D5 shared those same thoughts with me this morning. I would like us to talk about them together, in private, BW. When would be a good time?"
Laud your D5 for her honesty and bravery. For the information she brought to you...own your share, in private, for being part of the separation...you credit your BW's next to last final boundary enforcement for you being who you really are today...keep that going. This is a natural consequence, not a logical one imposed, really.
You're acting amends to yourself, too, along the way. You've yet to really grasp the depth of betrayal your BW has experienced, and experiences again as she tries to work through it, in light of seeing this amazing man who loves her in her present.
You both are getting closer to addressing some of the hardest stuff...recovery takes two years...you're not through it yet...though you have laid an incredible foundation for a new marriage with her.
Your BW feared separating from you and breaking the family apart. It was the boundary enforcement she required of herself and didn't take, again and again, justifying and lying to herself. Hearing the truth from her D5's mouth would be cumulative for all the things she told herself to justify not leaving you and your mistreatment of the marriage and your attacks.
I don't understand DB for the FWS (formerly wayward spouse)...because you weren't meeting her emotional needs pre-A, you were ignoring her, erasing her with distraction...so not being there, being dependable when she calls, focusing your attention on her when you converse and communicate seems manipulative to me.
You are repairing the damage through amends for not putting The Marriage first for years...help me to understand how not taking her call puts the marriage first now?
Also...would you consider planning 15 hours of undivided attention time with her per week? Where just the two of you get to play something together, take a drive, meet her EN for Conversation (which you've been doing great at), like you used to do when you first dated?
Then add the Family Commitment (FC) time to that amount...because you're exceptional at that, too! I loved you sharing "Hey, it's my first time here, too" with BW because that level of honesty is great. Fearless...even if you fear her response. Act fearless anyway.
LA _________________________ The Paradoxical Commandments
"It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so." Mark Twain
Registered: 08/31/10 Posts: 7915 I was just going to suggest that, if she feels fat, etc., why not offer to exercise WITH her? Maybe take a dance class together, yoga class, go to gym together?
Registered: 11/08/10 Posts: 627 Originally Posted By: pookie69 Originally Posted By: Pinhead Interesting that both of our wives have recently apologized for not being better wives.
Do you know why they have done that?
Mine was in response to a post I made on my FB wall. W sent me a private message. I have all this in my thread. _________________________ The best things in life aren't things.
Registered: 11/14/10 Posts: 356 Originally Posted By: Pinhead One thing you and I have talked about is when trust seems to be a huge issue (really, just fear of being hurt again), is pulling back the right approach? Is (what DB'ers call) the LRT the right technique?
Or is giving more attention, more WoA, quality time, etc a better approach, once some of the WW's anger has subsided?
Ya, like we talked about on alt, in early stages of my sitch (when her anger/hurt were so high), space was essential. In the last 2 months or so, I feel that the space hasn't facilitated the relationship, but it's hard to know since I don't know what is happening in her head. Like it's possible the space is allowing her time to process my changes, whereas if I was pursuing her I would just be seen as annoying and selfish, all bout my needs.
I'm curious to hear input on others re: benefits of continuing space/LRT/letting them go vs. the seemingly opposite pursuing, love bucket-filling approach when you are separated with no affair. It seems we have the two different camps here. _________________________ Me-40 W-36 D9, D5, D3 T-Since 12/2001 Married-9/2004 She Moved Out-5/28/2010
Registered: 11/14/10 Posts: 356 Originally Posted By: pookie69 Originally Posted By: Pinhead Interesting that both of our wives have recently apologized for not being better wives.
Do you know why they have done that?
In my case, she said it shortly after I explained my perspective on something. I said I was sorry in the past that I had withdrawn from her into gaming, that I had not understood what her anger meant, that I had interpreted it as her pushing me away, not wanting me, hating me. And that as I had learned more since our split, I realized that her anger was her way of expressing hurt or fear -- rejection of my behavior maybe, but not of me as a whole. That I was not used to that from my past R and hadn't been equipped to handle it. That now I not only can withstand it, but I understand it and see it as a key signal to tune into. I said I hope she is beginning to see that I can handle her emotions from our more recent interactions when she feels upset.
After I said that, she apologized. _________________________ Me-40 W-36 D9, D5, D3 T-Since 12/2001 Married-9/2004 She Moved Out-5/28/2010
Registered: 11/14/10 Posts: 356 Originally Posted By: LovingAnyway Wowsers, Bustor...thank you so much for being here and posting!!!
And thanks for posting to my thread =)
Originally Posted By: LovingAnyway When she says she fears and you validate that she fears, share your fear, too...how you have made new boundaries for yourself, extraordinary precautions (no gaming, doing the steps, knowing that distraction was your mistress and the other EA's were fantasy)...repeat them as necessary.
Ah yes. I had specified amends in a previous conversation back in September, but not as much in the most recent one. It's like I take the "new me" so much for granted now I kind of forget what the "old me" was like. I imagine W is "behind me" in some ways and still viewing me through the "old me" lens (that's the trust). Does specifying the amends/changes help? I think part of the DB dogma is not to point them out -- that pointing them out almost invalidates them and the WAS/BS has to recognize them on their own?? Is the MA view on amends/changes difft?
Originally Posted By: LovingAnyway Also, her unbecoming negative behavior was about you. See, you replaced her with other women...which really wiped her out of existence. That's the self-esteem, I think, that she's talking about. Sharing your stuff..."I have always found you beautiful and no FB pix is ever going to do you justice, IMO" would be great. If it's true.
Wow, I hadn't thought of it that way. OK, so this is a tricky one. When I give her WoA on her appearance (which I do), she gets offended if I give her too many (like if I tell her more than once or twice in a day how great she looks, she says stop, it bothers her). She also gets offended if it is at all sexual (e.g., saying she looks smoking hot as opposed to she looks amazing in sweater dresses). Keep doing it, just not overdoing it?
Originally Posted By: LovingAnyway You're still in amends mode...center yourself there. You really get what you did, why you did it, and how and why you won't do it again. You see your D5's experience as a natural consequence to your past behavior. You did great validating her, so she shared with her mom, too. That's awesome.
Your shrug wasn't. It was awful. Stay assertive and honest. "D5 shared those same thoughts with me this morning. I would like us to talk about them together, in private, BW. When would be a good time?"
Yes, I see that. I tried to broach something with W actually before D5 had said something to her when we were at swim lessons earlier that day -- saying I wanted to talk to her about something D5 had said, but not while girls were there. Then fast-forward 2 hours and D5 said that at lunch. I see how I could have handled it better. I was so shocked at the time at the way she said it that it threw me for a loop. My shrug was bad not only in that it wasn't assertive and honest, but also in that it was ambiguous -- she could have interpreted it to mean any number of things, most of which I would not have meant to communicate.
Originally Posted By: LovingAnyway You're acting amends to yourself, too, along the way. You've yet to really grasp the depth of betrayal your BW has experienced, and experiences again as she tries to work through it, in light of seeing this amazing man who loves her in her present.
I try to remind myself of this reality to keep my faith, patience, self-work, and hope on track. As I acknowledge to my W when she challenges my validating her, 'You are right, I can't know all that you are feeling. I see that you are hurting, though, and I am sorry for hurting you."
Originally Posted By: LovingAnyway Your BW feared separating from you and breaking the family apart. It was the boundary enforcement she required of herself and didn't take, again and again, justifying and lying to herself. Hearing the truth from her D5's mouth would be cumulative for all the things she told herself to justify not leaving you and your mistreatment of the marriage and your attacks.
On the flip side, I have thanked her more than once for initiating this boundary enforcement. It was very strong of her and essential for our individual well-being and any hope of our M.
Originally Posted By: LovingAnyway I don't understand DB for the FWS (formerly wayward spouse)...because you weren't meeting her emotional needs pre-A, you were ignoring her, erasing her with distraction....You are repairing the damage through amends for not putting The Marriage first for years...help me to understand how not taking her call puts the marriage first now?
It seems counter-intuitive to me as well, but I was 'following' the DB LRT philosophy. You are suggesting the DB LRT philosophy may be misguided when we are FWS (either due to affair of other person or affair of neglect/distraction)? (READING PINHEAD?)
Originally Posted By: LovingAnyway Also...would you consider planning 15 hours of undivided attention time with her per week? Where just the two of you get to play something together, take a drive, meet her EN for Conversation (which you've been doing great at), like you used to do when you first dated?
I would DIE for this opportunity, but she doesn't seem to want this (at this time?). She has turned me down on dates/dinners, when I asked her on them (the most recent time I suggested we do something just the two of us was in early October). It's like having the kids there is almost a security blanket/wall for her. She even talks about no pressure, she still has 'the wall.' The closest thing she's agreed to is to do spin classes with me. It's also a little tricky getting the alone time because we don't have any family here and have never had a sitter (which undoubtedly didn't help our past intimacy...). How do you suggest approaching this without (over)pursuing her and driving her further into hiding?
_________________________ Me-40 W-36 D9, D5, D3 T-Since 12/2001 Married-9/2004 She Moved Out-5/28/2010
Registered: 11/14/10 Posts: 356 Originally Posted By: catperson I was just going to suggest that, if she feels fat, etc., why not offer to exercise WITH her? Maybe take a dance class together, yoga class, go to gym together?
Ya, this is a good idea I've done a bit of, but maybe I can see if it's more regular -- like maybe a 'standing' time to go spinning together. I offered yesterday to do some weights with her as a workout buddy, but she said no. She was quite down yesterday, though. _________________________ Me-40 W-36 D9, D5, D3 T-Since 12/2001 Married-9/2004 She Moved Out-5/28/2010
Registered: 11/09/10 Posts: 6390 Originally Posted By: bustorama In my case, she said it shortly after I explained my perspective on something. I said I was sorry in the past that I had withdrawn from her into gaming, that I had not understood what her anger meant, that I had interpreted it as her pushing me away, not wanting me, hating me. And that as I had learned more since our split, I realized that her anger was her way of expressing hurt or fear -- rejection of my behavior maybe, but not of me as a whole. That I was not used to that from my past R and hadn't been equipped to handle it. That now I not only can withstand it, but I understand it and see it as a key signal to tune into. I said I hope she is beginning to see that I can handle her emotions from our more recent interactions when she feels upset.
After I said that, she apologized.
She apologized for what though? Not understanding of you neglecting her?
You did the right thing for apologizing for your shortcomings.
Her apology was nothing else but her acceptance of yours.
Not that it is bad at all, but different. She felt guilty for making you feel bad about yourself.
Now that it's done don't say it again. You've said it and she heard you.
_________________________ "A desire presupposes the possibility of action to achieve it; action presupposes a goal which is worth achieving." - Ayn Rand
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#22103 - 11/15/10 06:06 PM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: pookie69] kimmie lee Member
Registered: 11/08/10 Posts: 2738 Loc: SEATTLE, WA I think you're doing good, Busto. Fabulous, even!
Keep up the good work. _________________________ THE FOG comes on little cat feet.
It sits looking over harbor and city on silent haunches and then moves on....C. Sandburg
GOSH!! GOLLY!!
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#22123 - 11/15/10 06:49 PM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: bustorama] LovingAnyway Board of Directors Treasurer Member
Registered: 08/05/10 Posts: 2214 Restating your goal, which part of your amends, isn't invalidating them. Saying "I'm sorry you feel what you feel, think what you think" now that's invalidating.
Really understanding that amends are constant actions, anyway, why not state them as they occur to you. "Yes, you're correct. I did do that. Here's why I did (the stinkin' thinkin'), and how and why I won't do that again." Doesn't changer her fear...restates your boundary around yourself, recommits to yourself. With her present.
That's my experience. When it comes to infidelity, repeating your continuing remorse isn't like saying, "I'm saying this again to sooth you". It's bringing yourself into awareness in the present, acknowledging that her distrust is real and you're still earning half of her trust back. It's affirming it's ongoing...not going to stop and slingshot back if she doesn't give you the right response.
This is a huge change in you...and you're right about the two lenses seeing differently. How do you even know you won't do the change back if you get her back?
Ornery, aren't I?
Your BW will recognize your changes on her own. She chooses to believe in them or not...it's a choice. Over time. Years of damage to amend for...not just two things, done. Healing with her, addressing aloud with her your amends to self, too. Small bits, progressively...keeping the dialog open. That's all new you.
I don't think you're trying to educate her on your changes. That would be more what I think the DB WAS thing is...all lip service, no action.
Your patience, presence and awareness do the talking. Sharing how you wow yourself with your changes, your experience of you, is an act of intimacy, not education.
Unless you share to get her to think/feel/respond in some way. What's your honest intent?
One sentence informing her of your perception of her isn't over doing it. Judging her actions won't get you married happily. You already know that. Still creeps in...see changes are ongoing, creating new habits from practice. You did great to put down the camera. She picks it up, it's about her. But yes, WoA in all ways...the way you love the way she is with the kids on Halloween; how much you like her voice...period. Real things, not blowing smoke. Realizations owned and shared.
You really get this...just read what you said about the shrug...YES, yes, oh, yes! What a shrug means to a man is not what a shrug means to a woman. You nailed it.
Can we venture into the "no kids discussion boundary" now? The importance of what D5 told you went to number one on the parenting chart right away. Your kids know about your A's, even if you think they don't...I knew as a child before I knew what A's were...we know. We know when Daddy acts like he does with Mommy, only not with Mommy...is wrong. We know when Daddy on the computer is happy and with Mommy and me isn't...we know we aren't as good as the computer, aren't as likable, even lovable.
Short informing statements is important...at swim practice, telling her D5 told you some of her thoughts which really upset you and you'd like to tell your wife about them, leaves that open to her action...no broadsiding.
You only do your part, your half. She has hers. I think the wake up call from D5 is wonderful. Kids don't like divorce, they don't like their lives split and they don't understand love ending...and they fear their parents' love ending for them.
That's all in reverse order, I think. smile
Talking about it gives them information instead of guesses...they are emotional radars for you guys...they feel what you feel, see more than you think they see, know more than you give them credit for...because they have been you.
They have...mommy and me are one. So is daddy. Learning they are separate comes from age 2 to 8, sometimes beyond that when there is crisis...like their family splitting up. Honesty with your kids is really important. D5's bravery shows you that. Your answer to her was brilliant and a wonderful act for love. "Right now, this is scary and the way it is...not forever. We're working on it."
That's what I heard.
Originally Posted By: bustorama 'You are right, I can't know all that you are feeling. I see that you are hurting, though, and I am sorry for hurting you."
I just don't think it gets any better than this. You are already doing the ongoing apologies. Tweak them next time...consider if you're really saying, "I can't feel your feelings. I sure can know then when you share. I know you're hurting and I am sorry for hurting you."
Her half is as important as yours...and you're doing great.
I'm so glad you've thanked her for choosing separation. Truly, what a man! When she shares with you her doubt about her choices, shore her up with this one...she made one of the hardest and best choices for the marriage and her family. You don't doubt her.
I confess I haven't read the LRT articles...nor most of them yet. I've allowed other choices to come ahead of that and I think I've about run through my justifications. I'll get on it so I can really share knowledgeably about them. I have longed believe the 180 saves marriages from codependency destruction and I used the list myself during my DH's affair. I didn't come by it from reading a book or the DB website though. It's often published on MB in posts.
I will say that saving your marriage is counter intuitive...because at our core, if it will cause us pain, don't do it is at play. Everything about knowing you'll hurt for awhile and doing it anyway can seem counter intuitive.
What I hold you accountable for is following a plan blindly...just as trust in marriage that is blind trust isn't real, so following a plan which doesn't resonate within you, confirm something you already know...because you're the expert on your marriage. You really are...you've lived it. The good, bad and the ugly parts. Bustor...you decided to become self-honest, intensely so. To me, you taking your new self-honesty and reviewing (which you did, please continue to do) what you did and didn't do REALLY in your marriage is the key.
Along that line...owning that you decided to try different programs to manipulate your spouse back into the marriage is honest. It happens. Our crisis skills kick in and we'll do whatever it takes to get the outcome we want. That very line of reasoning, though, is what assures the destruction of the very thing you want most.
About spending the time...pursuing is not asking. It's demanding. Ask and let her turn you down. Ask her about spending more time together to experience your changes, rebuild trust, and help you to keep practicing your new boundaries.
Let her turn you down. She's not rejecting you. She's rejecting your offer that day.
Respect her wall and ask, anyway. Get creative...ask neighbors about forming a sitting coop, where you guys trade off sitting weekends, alternating, or even during the week. Takes about four families with kids around the same ages. You'll need that for your rebuilt marriage...because then you will need this away time 15 hours a week for the rest of your life, sir.
While you're working on that, get creative. Ask her for two hours of Scrabble after the kids are asleep. Another board game which has memories of you both enjoying. You can start smaller. You have younger children, so you can ask her if you can come over and rub her feet for 20 minutes and then leave.
Next foot rub, bring a couple of candles to light while you do it. Stick strictly to the 20 minutes...time it. Leave. Next time bring a cd of music and the candles. Then leave.
On altering days you can bring hot cocoa for ten minutes. And leave.
Meanwhile, use the UA time during swim meets, activities, to be present, next to her, doing what you're doing.
List her top Emotional Needs as you believe them to be. List your own, too, while you're at it.
Because you stick to your word, it's not over pursuit. Yes, you are pursuing your marriage. You are making amends for the thousands of hours you took away from her. Can't go back and give them back...ask now. Don't take her wall as rejection or her refusal. Your job is to offer and accept she chooses.
She may want to see if you react like the old Jay...where rejection made you ignore, withdraw, distract. That's okay. You're practicing a new habit...let her.
:"D
LA
_________________________ The Paradoxical Commandments
"It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so." Mark Twain
This is Faith btw, your a smart guy. You know. smile
I'm here, on DB, and you know me on FB.
Just keep doing what you are doing Bro.
Are you going to post on both or here now?
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#22378 - 11/16/10 10:30 AM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: SurvivalnAK] Pinhead Member
Registered: 11/08/10 Posts: 627 I gotta say, that recommending foot rubs isn't an effective strategy... _________________________ The best things in life aren't things.
Me-53 W-49 D22,D18,D15 T-Since-12/2001 Married-9/2004 She Moved Out-5/28/2010 Piecing start-04/2011 Now-together Thread http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2079304
