Is this cake eating 5

[labug]

I have to say that I've thought about this, and I just don't know any more.

Forget the marriage for now, it's over. I know that's painful but it is for all intents and purposes. Is there a chance that that might change? Who knows?

What I see is you twisting yourself like a pretzel trying to figure out what will have an impact on him. That must be torture every day. I'm so sad for you.

How can you change things around and live your life as a happy, strong woman and mother?

What goals do you have for YOU outside of your marriage?

[NLW]

Hi Labug,
Thanks for your quick response.
I can see your point.

My goals for me outside of my M are pretty much what they always have been - to be a good mother, to look after my parents, and to do well in my career.

I think I've been getting better at the former two, and I'm still plugging along OK, given the circumstances, with my career (Just handed a final book manuscript to the publisher yesterday, put in a big grant application last month, and my latest post-grad received examiners' reports recommending a commendation for her PhD, just today).

BUT - and here comes the resistance - I still have to respond to H's request about his interaction with the kids.

And I still want to save my M. So, from a DB perspective, or in terms of hard-won experience, I'm just wondering if anyone can see a better path to chose here?

Or am I just not getting it?

[Denver_2010]

So my question is:

Should I agree to him coming over each morning and afternoon to pick up and drop off the kids (keeping up the regular contact / making him see what he's missing in family life)

OR

Would it be better from a drop-the-rope/get-a-taste-of-the-reality-of-life-on-your-own

Yes and yes. I say do both NLW. First, he is still a father. One with parental responsibilities. Why shouldn't he take responsibility for getting his children to and from school. Seems to me that that's one less burden to fall on your shoulders. And SO WHAT that he has to stand awkwardly in front of the house waiting??? THAT is the dose of reality that he needs. That is his problem, and his alone.

The second part of this is that you should also drop the rope. Give him the responsibility and see what he does with it. Send the kids out to him when they are ready. You don't need to go outside with them. They are old enough. In other words, you don't need to see him or talk to him when he picks them up or drops them off. Drop the rope and let him deal with HIS responsibility.

Lastly, go do some really, really fun things with your kids. Just the 3 of you. I promise you that they will be talking to him about it when he is driving them to and from school. Get someone to watch them one night a week so that you can go out and have some fun by yourself or with friends. He will hear about that too. So you will be killing 2 birds with one stone! GALing AND getting him to wonder wtf you are doing... and he will. But you used the right term... DROP THE ROPE.

JMO NLW...

Denver

[bustorama]

I still feel as I did in my posts from January and November to you. I know LRT is counter-intuitive and emotionally hard to implement, but it's your best path forward.

You WILL prevail (either in saving your M or in saving yourself) by accepting that your old M is dead and moving on (or at the very least acting as if you are moving on). I still feel that YOU should be the one imposing the financial and custodial separation upon him. Give him the overdue consequences of his choices.

If as a divorced woman you are ok with your ex stopping by to shuttle kids to and from activities, then I suppose let him. But in no way should it be about him or kibbutzing with him. I personally would not want an ex in my business so much. Might make it awkward when the ex meets my new lover.

(FROM 1/19 post below)

So this seems to be the nub of the problem.

If the only solution is to pull back from him, I think we will be on a quick slide to 'visitation' schedules for separate time with the kids. In other words, there will be little to no contact between us from then on, and H will get his 'fix' of being a Disney dad.

Where to go from here?

The nub of the problem is that you are still not accepting and validating and moving forward with your life (LRT-like) per his stated intention not to be with you. You are still trying to maximize contact between the two of you, inviting him to activities during your time with daughter, and trying to strategize the circumstances under which you can "win him back."

This approach is doomed to fail and is not DBing. In fact, your WAS pulling further away ("we don't want to give the kids the wrong impression") is evidence that the approach you are pursuing is not working and that the bond between the two of you is slipping away over time. He also is not calling you for coffee and other activities as frequently as he was back in October or spending as much time around the house. If YOU had dropped the bomb on HIM back in October ("yeah you're right, it's best for me if you don't come around anymore, I want to set up separate visitation and financial arrangements, so I can move on with my life," it would, at best, have been more effective than if you drop it on him now, and, at worst, you would be farther along in your life and the process of moving on from someone who doesn't know your value. Perhaps it is not too late.

Your sitch has not substantively improved since when I wrote the below to you in early November:

Try NOT to think about this from a strategic perspective ("will this or won't this bring him back") because then you are not emotionally detached from his choices, and you can get into a spiral of mind reading.

Instead, think whether or not the situation works for you. Are you OK with being treated as a faux-W at your ex-H's convenience? For a ex-H to come in and out of your emotional life at his whim and on his schedule? For an ex-H to occupy much of your daily emotional time -- when will there be time for you to heal and move on?

Because, in your WAH's mind, he is your ex-H at this time. If he was seeking rapproachment with you, or begins to say things like, I am glad we are getting along better now, I enjoy spending time with you more, I like being with YOU and the kids, I miss being with YOU, etc., then I would say to re-examine your doubts and keep things up. But from his words ('now that we are separated') and actions (sleeping away at night), he still sees you two as not a couple, separated, broken up, finished.

I wonder if your discomfort and annoyance at the situation is a sign that you are allowing your WAH to cross a boundary on how you want to be treated in your relationship with your H. If it bothers you, it is more than fine to communicate and enforce that boundary the next time he suggests coffee, drinks or another day together.

You know, H. I really enjoyed spending time with you when we were together, it was great. But, this situation isn't working for me. I mean, we're broken up, but you are here all the time during the day. Because we are separated and not living as a married couple, I need more space from you.

Again, this in no way means you should be hostile to him. Continue to be warm, attractive, HOT, NLW. But, communicate and enforce that boundary to him, and be more mysterious and less available. Establish more of the space he says he wants and that you will be comfortable with, given the circumstances.

and also here:

Originally Posted By: NLW
He said again tonight that getting back together is just not going to happen.

Bustorama:
Accept this is how he feels, and act accordingly.

Originally Posted By: NLW
He said that that was the turning point where I made it clear I was no longer involved in his life/business, and now I have to get along as best I can without him.

I tried to reason with him and pointed out that I had bank-rolled his business for 15 years prior to this, and that i had to think of trying to keep the house and what was best for the kids. I also pointed out that even his parents, whom I'd contacted for advice on what to do, had advised me not to give him my salary cheque. He looked surprised to hear this, but in the end, it cut no ice with him at all.

Bustorama:
You know why? Because you are still arguing with/antagonist to his point of view. You didn't validate his point of view/feelings. Try to see his point of view and accept it (not necessarily agree with it).

You know, H, I can totally see how you would feel that way given what you said. Yeah, I don't know what I was thinking trying to convince you otherwise. I hear that you want a life separate from me, so I am going to focus on myself and my life without you.

Originally Posted By: NLW
In his mind, we are over, with no possibility of change. We are just no good together, yadda yadda yadda.

Bustorama:
So now it's been reconfirmed. When he comes by, it is not (in his conscious mind) with an eye towards getting back with you. Do you want an ex filling your days?

Originally Posted By: NLW
I asked how he wanted to proceed from here and he said we should just keep on being separated. I'm pretty much over this idea. It's just too hard to do. Every day another abandonment, another hurt, and recently, constant irritability from him.

Bustorama:
That's right, you don't deserve to be treated like this. He has no incentive for the status quo to change. He likes things just fine the way they are where he has the parts of you and the family in this faux marriage. Do you like things the way they are? You are worth more. =)

Originally Posted By: NLW
They don't deserve to have this storm break over their lives. It makes me feel so sick and sad.

Busstorama:
Yes, I get it hurts. Model for them how you might like them to act if the same thing happens to them in their lives.

Originally Posted By: NLW
but I really don't think there's any hope for us to get back together.

Bustorama:
Try to focus on your self, not the R or him or his actions. [/quote]

[NLW]

Just wanted to post a little about a book that I’m reading that has made me feel so much better about my sitch.
It’s Peter o’Connor’s Understanding the mlc.

He’s writing from the perspective of a 35 yo man who’s had the mlc experience himself – and also from the point of view of a researcher who subsequently interviewed a lot of mlc men.

The book is presented as an aid to men who are going through what they think is some sort of shocking, unique individual experience. Trying to show them that a lot of men have these terrifying feelings of chaos, futility and hopelessnessat around the ages of 35-45.

The detailed discussion of men’s feelings about their wives, parents, adolescent children, OW, their jobs, and their mortality fitted my H’s behaviours to a T.

The book is out of print now, I think, but for anyone whose H is going through this (or even a W), this description of how the mlc-er is feeling and why they are acting as they do is a must-read.

Having said that, I should point out that O’Connor doesn’t offer any solutions – beyond the advice that mlc men need to look inward and stop focusing on external solutions (ie buying possessions, chasing OW, engaging in manic physical activity, acting like an adolescent).

My question to you all is whether ANYONE thinks it is ever a good idea to suggest some reading to a spouse.

I know what MWD says about the uselessness of cutting out articles on mlc to show them.

It just seems, in relation to this book, that it was written as something to help men who find themselves in this sort of turmoil but believe they are the only ones who feel like this – and they can’t understand why.

I imagine it would help an mlcer like my H (who is a great reader and relatively sophisticated thinker – usually) to get a bit of insight into what is going on.

AND if, as O’Connor argues, the only thing that will help an mlc-er is to look inward, a book like this might just serve as a necessary catalyst.

And yet, it seems to be a suggestion that is doomed to fail.

My H has already denied the possibility that he is going through an mlc.

Has anyone ever had any success in suggesting reading of this sort to an mlc spouse?

[Cadet]

Has anyone ever had any success in suggesting reading of this sort to an mlc spouse?

Not that I have ever heard of.
There are no shortcuts through an MLC.
No easy buttons or magic wands.
The people that I know that have made it though have felt that they are going to lose everthing in there life.
They hit rock bottom and then and only then would something like this make any difference.
Someone has to want to get better, nothing YOU do is going to make them do it.

MWD did not write that advice for you to ignore it IMHO.

[ncl]

NLW,

I'm glad you have found a book that helps you understand a bit your husband's mindset as he goes through a MLC, but I would strongly suggest that you do NOT share this information with him. Much like with your DB/DR books, it's not wise to share your "play books." I'm afraid it would come across as pursuing and that he may see it as condescending behavior from you. Instead, just file away the information you have read in your mind and heart. If he comes out of his fog, he will realize these things on his own. Cross that bridge if/when you get there.

A book I strongly suggest for you is The Journey from Abandonment to Healing, by Susan Anderson. It was a godsend for me when going through my separation, and I really believe it would be beneficial to you. Girlfriend, I wish I could give you my personal copy (with all the highlighted text and notes!).

Again...my suggestion is to take your husband out of the equation right now. You cannot "fix" him, and he doesn't want your help (he most likely doesn't think he needs help anyway). So look to "fixing" you and making NLW the best lady you can be...for YOU, for your kids and for your other loved ones. Become the woman only a fool would leave. And if your husband misses out on that...well, then he's the fool.

love and hugs....ncl

[bustorama]

Do not show him the book.

NLW, if he will come back, it won't be because of things you do to induce him to. It will be because he figures out that life without you is not what he really wants (or that removing you from his life was not the solution to his unhappiness, etc.).

My W told me recently that she had a clear a-ha moment that started her back towards me. I had completely removed myself from her life (separate everything, fixed custodial arrangements), told her that I did not want her to call or contact me any more unless it was an emergency issue about the kids, and told her that I wanted to begin D proceedings.

During this time of no contact, she had a crisis situation happen that made her take stock of what her life had become, of how she was hitting bottom. She had an epiphany that pushing me out of her life had just ruined it and not fixed it. And the one person she wanted to call and talk to about it was me. And she couldn't because I was moving on.

[Denver_2010]

Bustorama and Cadet are most definitely correct. Do not show him the book or suggest that he read one. As Cadet said, there are no short cuts to this. If he wants to change the current path that he has put himself on, it will have to come from within himself. People don't like to be told to change. We resist that. This is what he will do because telling him to read a book is pressuring behavior and pursuit.

It is only when we decide that we need to change first that we are inclined to actually do it. The best thing that you can do is work on yourself... be the change that you would like and hope to see.

Denver

[NLW]

ncl, Busto, Cadet, Denver,

Thank you, thank you, for taking the time and effort to keep me on track.

You guys have saved me from myself yet again.

You're right, of course, it's more pressuring and pursuit/control on my part to try to get him to change.

I'll get the focus back on my own changes - and truthfully, I have actually been doing this (even if my thoughts sometimes get distracted with dumb ideas about 'fixing' H).

Last night I volunteered at D16's school fete and spent the evening talking with a navy engineer about Swedish diplomatic and defence policy. It was a great change from talking to the kids and the dog - which is mostly what I've been doing for the past 7 months!

Next Sat night I am going to a high school reunion to meet up with people I haven't seen in 35 years. Nervously excited.

Must say I'm looking forward just a little bit to letting H know that I'm going... but really, I'm pretty much (well, 80% at least) accepting of the fact that I need to move on with my life without him.

And since I've been radiating this new-found awareness/acceptance, I have been noticing baby steps from H. He's ringing me now about the kids rather than just texting. And saying things like 'See you when I get there" and coming into the house, rather than just dropping the kids off.

I'm noting these things, but not with any expectations. I'm sure we'll go backwards again as soon as the next financial issue rears its head.

My H is not such a big prize - sure, I want him to come back as a part of our family, but if it can't happen because of who he's become, well, so be it.
I'll survive - and prosper, I hope.

I'm obviously in an 'up' phase at the moment...

Many thanks again to you all.
NLW