Brand New here, my story, my ?'s

[BeingMe]

Funny how we start imagining them barricading bedrooms, etc. I always imagined my H just disappearing and me with no way of earning any substantial money to support me and D19 (and we are both in uni). He hasn't done that yet, and it's been 7 years, so I guess he's not likely to in the near future.

Thing is, we should cross that bridge when we come to it. I am glad you are detached, and also determined not to move ... from the house or your bed. I agree, it's her choice. She just thinks you're controlling because she can't control you. All you are doing is standing your ground. "Steadfast" is the word I would give you.

Keep it up.

[Ichrus]

Updating and Journaling.

So after reading the end of my last post and thinking about it, I decided to try to "act as if" things were going to be ok at home that night and tried to not mind read or create too many "what if" scenarios and to just see what came from a detached place. There was no blow up or fight or anything, hit up the gym, came home, W went off to sleep at her moms. She sleep there all of last week (sleeping on their couch) and came home exhausted, run down and sick the whole time. I feel bad about it because I don't like to see her suffer, but more strongly feel that these are her choices to make and her own costs to pay.

Don't know if it counts at GAL or 180 or what, but we were not really planning anything special for St. Paddy's day, but I saw friends posting about their fun plans or activities for the kids and I decided "why not make this is a much more fun, magical day for my lil munchkins". Swung by the party store on the way home for a few items. ended up making mini pots of gold (lemon jello in hallowed out limes) as a treat and after kids went to bed put leprechaun hat and beard cutouts over a few of the kids pictures on the walls, did a string maze for each D that lead to a mini bubble gun (they are into bubbles lately). W had the idea to party streamer their doorways, so I went out late to get that along with some Krispy Kreams for the morning, green dye in the milk, those sorts of things. Kids loved it and had an exciting morning.

W ended up staying home Fri night and seeing how sick and run down she really was I offered to sleep on the couch that night to let her get some real rest while making it clear this was not going to be a regular thing. Again, I feel a bit strongly that if she is uncomfortable in our home and around me, and she is the one who wants to leave the M, she can be the one to deal with her comfort levels and either sleep on the couch or at her mom's. I have let her know she is welcome to sleep next to me in the bed (I won't bother her or try anything), or on the couch or at her moms and that I don't really care which way she goes. She did end up staying Sat and Sun night as well (says even on our couch she just sleeps better then at her moms house).

Had an interesting night last night, I went out to get us dinner after the kids went to bed, got home and W was on talking on her cell in our room. Tried to be as detached and non-caring as I could, but realize I am not fully there yet (at least not last night because of going over some separation logistics earlier in the day as well), she had the door cracked open and was not being overly quite in her conversation...was not snooping (well at least not too much), but could tell she was talking to OM. Again, tried to be detached, but it really bothered me that she would be on such a long call (1.5 hrs at least) in our home while I was there as well. I decided to call her on it and basically knocked on the door, told her "I know how things are and where they are heading, but I find it extremely rude and disrespectful that she would be on this kind of call while I am around, and if she needed to speak with OM so much, could she do it somewhere else or while I was not around."

I was angry, but polite, and we got into a bit after she hung up. Not great DB'ing I know, and a backslide...but it seemed we both had some things we needed to share and get into. She did apologize and said she normally doesn't speak with him when I am around, and I acknowledge that and asked that it be that way all the time. She said she was scared of me, I was a bit taken back and I asked why and what is she scared of (have never been physical toward her, we haven't gotten into too many big verbal blow ups) and she couldn't nail it down at first but later in the talk said she felt like we had more of a father daughter dynamic and she was sacred of getting caught and yelled at (she has made it clear she hated growing up with her own father and even now is intimidated by him...and she has compared me quite a bit to him in many ways). This point certainly gives me more to think about and dig into personally for my future interactions with W as well as my relationship to my kids and future romantic interests. I feel I am already making great changes for the better in my attitude and interactions with my kids...but I will need to expand that certainly to other areas of my life...for me.

Shared that I really hope that she will be able to find what she needs on this path she seems set on taking, but that I don't think what she will find is what she has pictured. She was curious about that and asked me to go on...I explained that some of my personal growth thru this all has lead me to understand and believe that happiness and love are not found or stumbled upon really, that true happiness and love always come from within ourselves and we each have to work to make them happen. Other people and things can certainly be involved in that, but ultimately it falls to each of us. I let her know that I felt she might think leaving me and going to OM was her doing something to make herself happy, but I believe reality and life would quickly breakthrough the fairytale and things were probably not going to work out how she thought. She did not get as defensive or fight back as much as I thought she might, and shared things with OM were not all roses and he was questioning her and not believing her about things already. She asked me not to contact or confront him about anything, and I said I had thought about it in the past, but likely would not because I don't really see them lasting anyway and he wasn't worth my time (said very matter of factly, which seems to throw her off as well and had her asking for more details on why I felt that way). Shared that I felt his actions of knowingly pursuing a married women and, however indirectly they want to believe, being some part of helping to break up a family spoke more to his character to me then his words and I felt the reality of life and dating (living on her own, with 3 kids, etc.) would hit them both fairly fast and hard anyway. Again it seemed to make her pause and think more and she confided that she was afraid that if things did not work out with OM, she would be left all alone.

So W is super confused, conflicted, feels pressured from all sides (OM, her mom, work, family, me too), it is taking its toll on her physically and mentally. I hate seeing her in pain, but in some ways I am glad this is hard for her because to me it shows she is struggling with the questions and issues and she might be realizing more and more the real costs to everyone involved. I have to say I felt positive overall about the night and conversation (even if I deserve some 2x4's). W said she had thought about it being easier to just throw away D paperwork she got and move forward and mentioned at another point going out to live on her own a few months and realizing things were different then she thought and maybe wanting to come back. I said that I was not going to be hanging around as a safety net for her, and I was working toward making my own choices to grow and become better and moving forward with my life as I choose...that if we decided to look at having some sort of new R together (because old M is certainly dead already), it would have to be something we both decided and we would both certainly have a lot of work to do toward anything like that.

So I am glad she is questioning and looking at things, trying to not expect anything really or read too much into anything. Feel I need to back way off again, focus on myself, GAL, being a great father and just keep going forward.

[MrBond]

"She said she was scared of me"

Don't let things like this worry you. My W told me that too even though we never argued before, never yelled, etc. It was only after I found out about her hidden A that suddenly she was "afraid" of me. It's a security mechanism that many of the WAS's use to not accept any responsibility for their actions.

[Ichrus]

Thanks for the reply MrBond...I can certainly see her using it as a security/justification mechanism.

Actually just got off an interesting call with the W. Spoke to her earlier about some kids stuff and she mentioned she was having a really hard day...at first I dismissed it and was trying to be detached by ending the call early and being the one to hang up...but in thinking about it, thought it might provide a 180 chance for me to be the one she could vent and just talk to about her hard day. So texted her that I was willing to listen if it would help and she called.

She basically said it was hard because she talked to OM today and he was upset (real 180 chance because I don't like listening to her issues with him, so I just went with it). He said it is hard for him because his family and friends are on him for the relationship he is pursuing and he feels he really can't talk to W anymore until W figures out her own stuff (I think really meaning until we are D), so W is upset because she has seen OM as her venting person and someone who listens and tells her things will be OK eventually and then she just enjoys talking with (and of course W sees a future "real" relationship with). So I just listen and add in some positive "mmm hmm, go on, yup". So I feel good chance for 180 and to show I can be one to listen and let her vent, even about OM (and I make sure to add in an "I am sure we will both be OK eventually toward the end). It felt like a decent conversation, sharing some views and points calmly, her asking me some questions and me answering somewhat carefully when needed. Takes a turn toward a fight toward the end with her baiting on feeling scared of me, whole father/daughter relationship and me controlling things. I try to validate her feelings a bit and tell her I can see and understanding where she is coming from...get drawn into it a little, but decide to end it before going too deep.

Question for the boards:
So end of the call W is getting into attack mode about how she doesn't feel it is fair that I am staying in the bed and in the house all the time because I know she feels uncomfortable sleeping in the same bed with me. She thinks I am controlling her by forcing her to sleep on the couch or elsewhere and it is effecting her health. I counter that I am not controlling her or telling her what she needs to do or where she needs to go, the home and bed are hers as well as mine and she is welcome to them both now as we go though this...but I also don't feel I need to leave either of them because of her choices or comfort level..this is where I feel and know it is heading for a fight and I end the call as gracefully as I can.

So I guess the question or validation I am looking for is for my position. I feel I am not pressuring her by my words or actions about R, I keep things pleasant and calm at home, make and get dinner, etc. No ILY, no physical contact and in many ways try to keep things "like normal". I agree we both own the home and bed, and have made it clear she is welcome to use and be in both...but I also don't feel I should be kicked out of my bed or home for any regular period of time (even some weird 50/50 schedule) because of her choices and her comfort level. She said she feels that because I am going to be the one to keep the home, it seems like I am trying to lay down the rules and it is my way or the highway...I disagree that I am telling her in any way what to do, but also will not necessarily be told what to do either. This is not a power or control thing for me...really a principal thing that I don't feel I should be chased out (or made uncomfortable by ridding the couch) because of her choices/comfort level.

So any thoughts for or against my position?

I can see myself offering her the bed from time to time, but don't want to roll over or make things "easy" for her in all her choices.

[MrBond]

You're doing fine. In fact, when she says such nonsense like YOU are controlling her by having her sleep on the couch, stop her before she continues. Tell her "uh I'm pretty sure that by YOU telling me that I have to sleep somewhere else, that's YOU controlling me. Not the other way around."

When she says something about being "afraid" of you, again, stop her and speak calmly but directly to her that you have never done anything to make her afraid of you and that she only started saying things like that after she started seeing the OM. That you will not be blamed any longer or a continued scapegoat.

Then walk away. Remember, stay cool and calm. You can do it.

[BeingMe]

I agree that you should not give up your comfort level. She's broken her vows, and started an A, not you. She is, in essence, controlling your life by doing so, since you have no choice in this. She made a promise when she got married, had a family with you, and you had every belief (as we all had) that that would continue. She broke it. If she was unhappy, she should've said so, and turned to you and try and work it out. Instead, she turned away from her M to OM. How can she possibly justify anything now? And being "afraid" of you ... what, she can't speak up for herself, after all these years being married to you? If she had father issues, she should've gone to counseling, not started an A.

You are handling this very well, IMO. Yes, it's probably not a good idea to let her vent about OM, but if one thinks about it ... it's almost like you have become the OM, so she may find a certain attraction to that. I am glad you are letting her face the consequences of her choices. So many men on here tend to leave to "give their wives their space". And, they end up without their children, in some tiny apartment, OM in their beds, believing they were being the gentleman by leaving. I disagree with them vehemently. Now is not the time to be a gentleman ... now is the time to be a husband who is seeking to save his M, or himself.

Bleh, I've gone on a bit. I'll end it now. Take care.

[BeingMe]

PS I wouldn't offer her the bed at any time. That's where she spent more than an hour speaking to OM. There's the couch. A pity you don't have a spare bedroom. The kids could all share, and she can move into one of their rooms???? Just a thought.

[breakdownbill]

Hi Ichrus, just read your sitch and it's very similar to mine. My W is still in contact with OM - we are still living together in same bed, but not trying to have a R right now. W - wants out & will probably wait until my UNI has finished at the begining of May, before she decides what she wants to do. In the meantime I'm just detaching, and a bit like you struggling at times, but it's important not to lose sight of your goals.

Mr Bond gave you some good advice about how to handle the sleeping arrangements, it'll be tough but you can do it!

Keep posting and keep sharing - it does make things easier.

Bill

[Ichrus]

Thank you all for the replies and validation...sometimes it is just good to hear from others that what I am doing and what I believe to be the correct course rings true to third parties as well.

I certainly plan on being steadfast and standing my ground on this issue and some others in a calm and cool manner, being as detached as possible. I also picked up a little on the irony of her being able to vent to me about OM...maybe that makes me OM²!

I will be interested to see how this goes...mind reading a bit, but it seems like W is starting to see some of the cracks and holes in the fantasy with OM, and facing the fear that her plan might not go how she envisions and she could end up all alone. I can also see how him pulling back could strengthen her resolve and desire to get us over with so she could finally feel free to explore a R with him...so it will be interesting to see how it goes.

W spoke last night with a female friend who has been thru D recently and used to work in the courts to get more info on paperwork and steps, she also has an IC session tonight (her 2nd). She told me before that in her 1st session the C asked her "why are you still in the M then?", she seemed to use it as validation, but I don't know the way he asked her (he could have been challenging her)...so it will also be interesting to see how she feels and acts later tonight. I try to approach this from a detached perspective, almost experimental in wondering how she will act and react as she moves through different situations. I like the lighthouse analogy someone else posted, with the LBS as the steadfast lighthouse trying to show the way safely home and the WAS caught in their own sea of emotions and turmoil, behind and beneath waves of mostly their own making so they sometimes can not even see the light that might lead them home.

So we are still moving forward on "our" plan and she still is set on her course of D and separation around June...and while I feel I am much more detached and prepared for whatever path may come, I am encouraged by the stories of those who were days or even hours from signing papers, or even separated...then found a way to work on a new R together.

Another interesting moment last night, we had a fairly light discussion, her sharing what she learned about D paperwork, me mostly listening...and after she said (smiling and jokingly) she was just so stressed and tense that we should just go to the bedroom and "do it", and she really needed something like that. I smiled and joked a bit back saying "you know I would love to, but you seem to be the one who can't even stand being in the same bed with me" giving her a wink. I didn't want to jump on her offer too strongly, partly because I didn't want to react or reengage too much...but it makes me wonder if she might be interested in that. I had let her know before that I had no problem with it (as I suspect most men would not), and that we are still married and friendly toward each other...and of course there are many benefits to ML, stress relief, feeling better overall, etc.

Any thoughts or strategies on if she mentions "just doing it" again? I would love to, and think anything that might help bring us closer together and connects us is a good thing...but I could also see her wanting it, feeling uncomfortable and weird about it and maybe pulling back hard in the middle of it or afterward.

[Ichrus]

Updates:

So last night W is telling me about the apartments she is looking at, the place she really likes is close, clean, has full washer dryer, etc. She is worried and stressed about having to deal with all this on her own, money and details and such, and also says it is weird talking to me about it and she doesn't feel she has anyone else she can talk to about this stuff (her Mom is not very supportive of her decisions right now, OM seems to be pulling back, she has not really reached out to her siblings, maybe fearing judgement). I basically listened, validated a bit along the lines of "I can see and understand how it will be scary for you to deal with this on your own now, but I am sure you will figure it out".

I certainly want her to get a nice place nearby for all of our sakes (the kids especially)...but am really trying to stay way out of the process. Just got a text from her: "Sent an email this morning to my mom about the apartment. she responded with a very hurtful unsupported reply, ugh!! don't know how much more i can deal with". I think I am just going to let that text sit and not reply at all.

W is back in the home regularly now, but sleeping on the couch every night. Seems to be not as physically sick anymore, but still very mentally stressed. I guess one of my 180's lately has been to really sit, look and listen to her while she vents about how hard this all is. I try to just validate and let her speak, don't really offer any advice or try to "fix" anything and don't really slide in any comments to stick it to her like "I told you this was going to be way harder then you thought". Any advice or thoughts on this aspect of my current sitch? I feel a bit conflicted about trying to be detached, a little LRT/dark/dim but on the other hand one of her main complaints was that I wasn't there to listen and just let her vent, and now she seems to be reaching out a bit to me for this

Right now I plan to try to stay as detached as possible, keep working my GAL's, I do plan on still being there to listen and let her vent a bit, but not get overly involved in it or offer anything to the conversation. I believe she might be learning and feeling a bit of the life lessons of what this will cost, and I am glad for that. I don't expect her to change her mind or come running back or anything (I certainly would not be throwing myself at her feet thanking her...would have to be a very serious conversation and decision for both of us...but for the kids and myself I am still leaning toward trying to make us work if at all possible).

I still expect and plan on her moving out (and divorce as well) sometime come early June and both of us adjusting to our new, separate lives and parenting. I don't know that this will be the end of our story together...and as you all say, certainly anything can happen over time (between now and June and even after she moves out). But I do feel I am much more at peace and prepared to continue to work on my own happiness and life, and build a great future for me and my kids (and whatever "lucky" woman I might find in the future...even if it is my W again).