MC says to call it quits

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Greenblue90,

you get the behavior you tolerate. I just wanted to point out that.

I'm well aware of that. "Bad behavior" from an adult is complicated though. Sometimes the person is in control and is trying to be difficult or provocative, or get a rise out of you. That's the kind of behavior you need to clamp down on. Other times the person is simply out of control, they have "lost it", either out of deep sadness, anger or despair. Those scenarios you have to treat on a case by case basis. Sometimes you have to set limits and walk away, sometimes you have to listen and comfort, and sometimes you need to stabilize and revisit later. Category 1 bad behavior is described in the fitness test. Category 2 bad behavior really isn't discussed in MMSLP except touched on in the "batsh*t crazy" rant he has.

They know they don't want to leave, but they can't accept that. They say things like I'm doing it for the kids, or I don't know if this is what I want, amongst other excuses.

My sitch is different here. My W accepts that she wants to stay. She does not say she's doing it for the kids or anything else. She's saying things are MUCH better for her, she's happy, and she just wants me to be happy with what she can provide, without having to change who she is. That is a significant difference between our sitches, our women are different, have different motivations, different issues, etc. Although some of their behaviors may seem to fit similar patterns, the cause of those behaviors may be far different, so they can't be dealt with or explained in the same way.

[/Quote=Greenblue90]Especially when the WAW won't commit to a happy marriage and instead strings the LBS along.[/Quote]

There's an important dynamic to be understood here concerning decision and inability. WAW may be stringing you along because they have decided to do so, or it may feel that way because they are incapable of intimacy due to their own issues. Do you agree with that distinction?

Upon lots of reflection, that's my fundamental issue with MMSLP. The author suggests that if your W isn't having sex with you, it's because they're not attracted to you sexually, because your sex rank is lower, you're not alpha or beta enough, etc. etc.

The assumption is that all women are sexual beings, have sex drives just like men do, and it's something about you that is holding them back. It's because of some fault of yours. What that ignores is what if your W is not sexual because of how they feel about themselves? What if your W has body image problems? What if your W has self-esteem or self-confidence problems? What if your W has been taught religious guilt or shame in regards to sex? Those things don't have anything to do with you. Running the MAP may get you "defensive sex" in that scenario, but as previously discussed I don't think many married men would consider that a win or an acceptable long term outcome.

MMSLP may be right "on average", but on average men are taller than women. That doesn't mean you won't find a married couple with a taller wife -- that scenario exists, it's just on the edges of the bell curve. If you apply the "average case" rules to the end of the bell curve cases you won't get the expected result.

So if your W does not even want to lift a finger to give you what makes you happy then I believe it's ok to move on.

Agreed if that is her choice. If she is incapable of doing the things that make you happy because of who she is, then the equation is more complicated.

That being said I really love my W like many here do, so the MMSL philosophy fits well it gives me a chance to methodically improve myself while giving my wife a chance to notice my improvements while giving her time to react and show some of her own.

Working on your own improvements is awesome, I'm doing the same thing. However, if you're expecting your W to "notice" and for that notice to result in new behaviors, you may be disappointed if the source of your sexual issues were NOT due to your deficiencies but instead your W's issues. Along the same lines, if you expect her to show some of her own improvements because you've improved, then you're falling into the "Nice Guy" thinking trap. Her choice to work on improvements is completely independent of what you do or do not do.

What I do believe in now is my inherent self worth, and what it will take to keep a person like myself in a relationship. Don't necessarily believe in unconditional love either, or rather that it's smart to practice it.

I think there have to be conditions to stay, on both sides. You wouldn't stay with your partner if they killed your parents, how about if they beat you? Cheated on you? Talked down to you? Disrespected you? Denied you all sexual pleasure?The slope gets more slippery as we go down.

Right, I agree with all of that. Did I suggest I was going to stay unconditionally? I have boundaries and am committed to them. One of them is that we will have a sex life in our marriage with at least once weekly frequency. If that ends, I am gone.

Of course you have your children and their welfare to think about, but consider this: it is said that children often model their parents relationships, what type of role models do they have?

I have no concerns about this whatsoever. My W and I have always parented extremely well as a team. We don't have "stupid" fights in front of the kids, although we do have occasional disagreements, but I think having the kids see us work through that is healthy. That's why when my W threatened to leave the table I had such a strong reaction later. She has never done that, and from my perspective we don't act that way in front of the kids. I made it clear that I felt that way. Since piecing, we've been more physical in front of the kids, more hugging, etc. We've been doing things around the house more together, in general, our "model" has improved, although it was never bad.

I think following the MAP is a very good way since it advocates about a year for every "point in sex rank" you want to achieve. This means that you have a long time to fix yourself and your spouse has a long time to notice, but most importantly accept your changes.

His disclaimer is so key here -- she may not notice, she may not respond the way you want, and the author says "then you leave". Is that your plan?

When a spouse becomes a WAW whether you want to call it sex rank, not enough alpha or beta, or whatever, you are not worth much to your spouse. Your probably hemorrhaging value.

Maybe not. What if your W is going through menopause or has other medical or psychological issues going on that have nothing to do with you? I saw Joe Pantoliano on TV the other day talking about his battle with depression. He said he felt so badly about himself he wanted to punish his wife for loving him. Does that mean he didn't value her? I don't think so, I think he couldn't accept her love because he didn't love himself. See the difference?

Whereas DB is emergency treatment, MMSL (at least for the guys) is like strengthening the muscle around the wound, and practicing preventive care.

You and I are just going to disagree on that. MMSL is one thing to think about, along with 5LL's, How to Improve Your Marriage Without Talking About It, The Passion Trap, Passionate Marriage, etc. They all contribute a little bit to strengthening the muscle. Sometimes they are contradictory. You need to create your own MAP based upon your understanding of your sitch, your understanding of your W, your goals for your M, and "package motivations" like your kids, your financial sitch, etc. You also need to decide on the man you want to be. If your only motivation is to have a great sex life and nothing much matters beyond that, then MMSLP is the way to go. Reading it, the "ultimate solution" is to marry a woman with a lower sex rank to begin with. Then you win coming out of the gate. Is that what you want?

I've received advice in the past before saying that a LD has no reason to change unless they have a good reason.

Sometimes even given a good reason they are incapable, because you cannot change your sexuality. You can act differently, but you can't "make" yourself HD. I don't believe even a buff caveman with a giant club can make some LD women HD. I did not buy that. Sometimes yes, sometimes no, but not always one way or the other.

I think the average stubborn LD is too conflicted with their own issues to care about their partners fulfillment, while at the same time either believes their partner incapable, unwilling, or too unattractive to cheat or leave for someone else.

In other words "my marriage is safe, so I don't have to change"

My W told me she assumed I was cheating. She knows I'm marketable and that she wasn't meeting my needs, so she assumed I was getting it taken care of on the side. How does that fit into your argument?

Or worse "I care so little for my marriage that I don't care if he cheats or leaves, maybe I'll leave first!"

Or how about, "I feel so badly about myself I don't know what to do. I value my marriage, but nothing I do seems good enough, so it doesn't seem worth it to try." Can you see this perspective too or not?

By following the map, you increase your own self value so that she hopefully values you more, in doing that she realizes you now have the ability to cheat or leave for someone else. It doesn't mean you will, or are even considering it, but you can.

Once again, she realizes that. She thinks someone else could make me happier, but she feels hopeless in the face of that knowledge because she doesn't think she has what it takes to compete.

Now she has to protect this man she suddenly values, lest some other woman take him away.

...or she decides she doesn't have the resources to protect this man and instead resigns herself to failure...

I hope this has made sense. I think I've laid out the holes I see in MMSLP. If you don't agree or can't see this perspective, you and I are just going to agree to disagree, because continuing to make these arguments with me isn't going to go anywhere. I read the book too, cover to cover. I understand it, no one is going to explain it better than the author did. I just don't agree with everything in it. I see exactly how my sitch fits into it, and his prescription does not lead to the outcome I want.

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