Thanks KD, and 2. I've read Sandi2's post. I want to go back and read the rest of that thread. I actually went back a couple weeks ago and read Sandi2's beginning posts. I read about a year's worth before I was spent. i think maybe it got a little discouraging seeing how long it took, and the little progress she was making. But I'm glad she's where she wants to be now. Sometime I'll have to try and dig through the rest to see some actual progress that got her to where she is today.
In the meantime, I'd like to post some current stuff. I don't want to discuss the past anymore. I don't get any value out of it. So I'm going to take a breath and regroup. I'd like feedback on MY stuff. Although my H says I contribute negatively, he doesn't really help with what it is or what I should do differently.
So, the current sitch. On Thursday, H and I had a brief discussion of what he wants in M. He listed a bunch of things, stating that God wants us to x, y, and z. So I asked him how he knows that that's what God wants, and if he could point me to some scripture verses. That wasn't received well, but I don't know my alternative option. I'm not just going to sleep in the same bad as him and sacrifice my sleep because of his snoring because he said God wants it. Suggestions on MY stuff here, please?
So while we're chatting, he gets on his laptop, Googles "what God wants in marriage," and scan/reads the first link in support of what he's saying, though it still had no biblical reference in it. I said that I could go out on the Web myself, but I wanted to know HIS foundation of belief. He forwards me the link. On Friday morning, I read the link, but I'm very surprised by what it says. It says that God wants married people to be best friends and describes what best friends are, how they act. The surprising part for me was that very little of the article reflected on my H at all, and much of it completely contradicts his choice in action. For example, the article states, "The best sex is the mutual giving of our body to our spouse -- nobody should be making anyone have sex; that's selfish and using the other person for your personal gratification and purpose." Yet he's insisting on sex when he knows I don't want to.
Anyway, I emailed him back Fri morning asking if he had actually read the article that he sent me. He said he had, sort of, while we were talking, so I suggested he might want to read it again more slowly.
Some time after he got home, maybe about 6:00, I asked him if he reread the article, he said yes. I asked if he still believed it, and he said yes. I said okay, that's all I needed to know. One of the things I'm working on is not offering my opinion or comments. Also, not initiating deep, and subsequently long, conversations. He pursued a bit to find out why I asked, but I just remained firm and didn't engage, and just explained that I wanted to make sure I understood correctly. So he sat down with his laptop and said he had some others he wanted to send to me and wanted to discuss it further because he really wanted to know why I asked him that. End of any discussion.
The night went on. He sat with his laptop, I played some Words, S watched some tv and played some video for a bit. We briefly discussed if H wanted to do something then or wait until Sat night, and he said Sat. I offered to go get some Chinese food, brought it back, we ate, discussed the food and decided we wouldn't be going there again, finished dinner, H went back to his laptop, S and I put in a scary movie and cuddled on the sofa. After a while, H put aside his laptop, laid down to watch the movie with us and promptly fell asleep. We finished the movie, S started another movie on the DVR, I spent some time on my laptop and finally went to bed about 11:30, leaving H and S on the sofas.
Sat morning, I slept in a bit, got up, cleaned the kitchen, checked the laundry, checked my email and noticed I hadn't gotten an email from H like he said he was going to do some 14 hours prior. I thought that's what he was doing on his laptop. So I went downstairs where H was paused on the treadmill watching tv and asked him if he had sent the email. He said that he hadn't but he would, and I said I was just making sure he didn't think I had received it already and was waiting for me, and I left.
I went upstairs and finished in the kitchen and S came downstairs for breakfast, so I made him some pancakes. H came upstairs, sat at his laptop for a few minutes. I let him know that there were some extra pancakes if he wanted some. He set his laptap aside and came to the kitchen, checked on the pancakes and said he was going to make some eggs, too. I was finished eating and finished cleaning the kitchen ready to leave, so I asked H if he had sent the email. He said no and the tone of his voice was obviously irritated -- the prelude to an argument. So I said that it was apparent to me that we were on the brink of an argument, and according to a commitment I had made in an earlier discussion this week, that I would immediately set it down and walk away, I did just that. (I made this commitment because H is very conflict averse and he claims I always want to argue.)
A little later when he was done in the kitchen, he said again that he was going to send me the email and wanted to discuss it. I said it wasn't necessary because it was obviously a high-conflict topic, and there really wasn't anything to discuss. He could hold whatever opinion he wanted regarding marriage and I had no comment to share. He kept trying to ask me my thoughts, but I kept declining, stating that it doomed for failure based upon his initial aggressive response.
I asked him that if he still wanted to talk about it, why did he respond so negatively when I inquired about the email? He explained that it was because the last words we had Friday night and the first words we had Saturday morning were an interrogation by me about the email. He said he was annoyed because I was hounding him about it, that he didn't appreciate being hunted down and nagged about it while he was on the treadmill.
So I need your reflection on this please.
The big problem I have is that this is how I act with everybody. If my behavior is that inappropriate, I want to know because I'm apparently offending everyone.
We all went to dinner and H and I were having some conversation on the way. S was in the car, playing his video, so we coded the convo in case he was listening. H came up with the idea of using "making a sandwich" in place of "having sex." I was very focused on SBT and what could be done at this point in time, based on reality and not promises. I truly was invested.
I tried to figure out what the alternative would be to the problem that morning, and tried to get feedback from him. I suggested that if I had told him that I wanted to "make him a sandwich," I can't imagine being irritated because he came to me 14 hours later asking where his "sandwich" was, especially when I said I wanted to. So he would need to explain it to me. It went on like this for a bit, but I really couldn't get much from him. I made several suggestions, attempted to formulate some parameters. He was listening and "agreeing," but wasn't invested or enthusiastic. It was more like someone that was agreeing to something but didn't want to do it. This has been an issue for us in the past, because then later it blows up on me because it was MY idea. So I said that I needed him to invest, and I would keep quiet and let him drive the conversation for a while. He resisted but I kept redirecting it to him, though he never really did contribute anything.
We got to the first destination, and while H and I were walking into the store, H was just acting like a crabby kid dragging his feet because he didn't want to do what he was being made to do. I said that I felt like he wasn't happy with my suggestions but wouldn't formulate any of his own, so I asked if he just wanted to be unhappy.
He looks at me and yells, "Me?? I'm not the one that's getting all pixxed off!!" Honestly, I thought it was funny, and I paused and said to him that maybe he could convince me if he yelled a little louder, hoping to break the tension a bit. He just kept on walking about 10 feet in front of me. After a few steps, I stopped and told him I'd wait in the car. (Thankfully, S wasn't in earshot.) He went inside and proceeded to do his recreational shopping while S and I waited in the car.
"I asked him that if he still wanted to talk about it, why did he respond so negatively when I inquired about the email? He explained that it was because the last words we had Friday night and the first words we had Saturday morning were an interrogation by me about the email. He said he was annoyed because I was hounding him about it, that he didn't appreciate being hunted down and nagged about it while he was on the treadmill."
As I was reading your post I was searching for the right word to describe how I was interpreting your interaction with your H and what you write above I think describes it pretty well.... Interrogation.
I'm not sure your H really knows what he wants out of a M. I think he knows he wants something but has a hard time articulating what it is, thus he goes the easy route and on to the internet looking for answers.
"So I asked him how he knows that that's what God wants, and if he could point me to some scripture verses. That wasn't received well...."
This ^^^ seems a little argumentative and antagonistic to me.
"I said that I could go out on the Web myself, but I wanted to know HIS foundation of belief."
Again, this ^^^ seems antagonistic...
"Anyway, I emailed him back Fri morning asking if he had actually read the article that he sent me. He said he had, sort of, while we were talking, so I suggested he might want to read it again more slowly."
A little condescension maybe?
"Some time after he got home, maybe about 6:00, I asked him if he reread the article, he said yes. I asked if he still believed it, and he said yes. I said okay, that's all I needed to know."
I'm puzzled by this. "that's all I need to know" seems very provocative and even a little passive aggressive.
"...checked my email and noticed I hadn't gotten an email from H like he said he was going to do some 14 hours prior. I thought that's what he was doing on his laptop. So I went downstairs where H was paused on the treadmill watching tv and asked him if he had sent the email."
Why the scorecard? And if you hadn't received the email, why interrogate him about whether or not her sent it if you know he didn't? It just seems like you are itching for an altercation....or to prove yourself right, maybe?
"I was finished eating and finished cleaning the kitchen ready to leave, so I asked H if he had sent the email. He said no and the tone of his voice was obviously irritated -- the prelude to an argument."
Of course he is going to get irritated. You've been harping on the email and he is becoming defensive. Maybe he realizes he picked the wrong battle with you but you keep coming back at him and he is feeling shamed into reacting.
"A little later when he was done in the kitchen, he said again that he was going to send me the email and wanted to discuss it. I said it wasn't necessary because it was obviously a high-conflict topic, and there really wasn't anything to discuss. He could hold whatever opinion he wanted regarding marriage and I had no comment to share. He kept trying to ask me my thoughts, but I kept declining, stating that it doomed for failure based upon his initial aggressive response."
So now after you have been pressing for him to send you the email, you tell him it is not necessary. TBH, I'd be pretty PO'd at this point. Again, it just seems very passive aggressive.
"The big problem I have is that this is how I act with everybody. If my behavior is that inappropriate, I want to know because I'm apparently offending everyone."
OK, this is how I'm reading things based upon what you wrote above. You have a lot of pent up anger, frustration, resentment, etc. and it comes out in all of your interactions with your H. I don't know if this is how you deliver messages to your H but when I read your post I read sarcasm, condescension, and a thoroughly patronizing tone. Is it possible your H hears it the same way?
And if he does, can you see how the dynamic between you two will never change as long as he feels threatened and shamed and talked down to?
==========================
Please don't take this the wrong way, CV. I want to share a little story with you to maybe help you understand how you might be coming across to your H and possibly to others...
Years ago I worked with a woman who was very intelligent and very attractive. But she was also the biggest PITA. I was her supervisor and she had this habit of turning EVERY INTERACTION into a conflict.
Something as inconsequential as asking her to recheck some work would turn into a 15 minute discussion about how her work wasn't valued. After we would solve that mini crisis, she would bring it up with another supervisor and round and round she'd go. Then later, she'd find a way to take her "issue" to human resources and then we'd go round and round again.
It was the most unpleasant working relationship I had ever had to work under before or since. She would turn molehills into mountains at every opportunity. She would create tempests in teapots at every turn.
She was just one extraordinarily difficult person to work with and everyone felt the same way about her.
Now I'm not suggesting this is you. But, some of the behaviors you describe seem similar enough to me that I thought I'd raise them to your attention.
One of the vets has a quote in their signature block that reads... "Be happy or be "Right"".
For me that is a constant struggle because I have this need to always be right and it doesn't work well at all, in my R with my W.
So, maybe what you should consider is evaluating how you interact with H and possibly others and see if there is an opportunity to adjust your approach some and see if you get different results.
Also, there is a book I'm reading at the moment called "How to improve your marriage without talking about it". You might find it very interesting and insightful as it relates to your sitch.
((((CV))))
Me51 W53 S17 S14 M22 T25 Bomb-9/11; A-11/11; I move out 11/11
It's easy to find our bottom, it is our top that requires cultivation.
Every rough spot adds to our emotional constitution. -Barney Fife
Yes, honestly, I think just about anyone would be annoyed. There is a lot of behavior on your part to avoid that involves being controlling, blaming, manipulative, judgmental, needling, impatient, and passive aggressive. Do you have an IC to share your lasts two posts with? I think you could make a lot of progress on those things quickly.
At the same time, you are obviously a good, caring, loving person committed to improving yourself and your marriage. I fear you are getting in your own way. There's a book about LifeTraps that might help you break out of unhelpful patterns of behavior.
Sounds to me like H felt a bit hopeful that you were willing to listen and read stuff he sent you. You sure put a stop to that. Uh oh.
Maybe try this: "H, you are right. I was hounding you and I really screwed up. I really appreciate you finding things for us to share as partners to help us improve our R. Maybe it was anxiety that led me to be so impatient. Maybe I feel a need to control things because I'm scared about losing you. Whatever it was, I'm sorry that I pestered you and felt a need to control it. I'm even sorrier that I rejected your efforts because I didn't get my way. I was not a good partner and I can do better. I'd really like a do over."
If H wants to share a bed with you, what solutions have you explored to help you sleep together? Have you tried ear plugs or white noise? Has H been checked for a sleep disorder? If the snoring is that disruptive, it is likely he has sleep apnea which is very dangerous for both acute reasons (you can die in your sleep) and chronic reasons (it damages you health, can even lead to brain damage.)
I'm here and watching your thread, CV. Before you can create that new, fantastic R with your H, the mid step will be working through how you see your current R with your H.
You mentioned earlier how it can be difficult for us to be objective about our own sitchs. 2tp is doing a great job helping to give you feedback, that while you may feel that your interactions with your H should be productive and positive, perhaps he might be seeing it in a less the positive manner. This would cause him to be less than receptive and productive in kind.
Again, as 2tp indicated, I and I suspect very few, would suggest that your H is harmless in your sitch. He certainly has contributed negatively to your M, his own portion, to get your M to where it is.
SBT would tell us to change ourselves or our methods, so that will hopefully encourage your H to change his way of interacting with you, hopefully in a positive way. You H can not keep doing and behaving in the same way with you when you change your methods.
You know, it really stinks to want to be a really good person and put a ton of thought and effort into it, only to find out that you sock. It's really odd to hear other people's interpretation of my actions and the feelings they represent, when I would claim to be feeling something very different than what is interpreted. I feel like typhoid Mary. But I'd rather know, so don't hold back.
Okay, so it's unanimous. Or at least three out of three, but that's good enough for me.
So, please, for example... We have an issue with sleeping together. He has done a sleep study - twice. He does not have sleep apnea but moderate snoring. His big thing is that he twitches a lot, like 47 times an hour. You know, that thing you do when someone startles you awake? Except not quite that bad and he does it all on his own. It's his sleep problem, but being in the same bed affects my sleep. He's a grown man. Short of sneaking sleeping pills into his late night snack, I don't know what I can do. I've encouraged, I've suggested, but by this point, I feel like I'm nagging. I don't want to take sleeping pills or wear ear plugs because I don't feel safe, and I don't feel like I'm available for S (we live in a tornado track and on a faultline; just had a small earthquake last week that H slept through -- go figure!)
So when H says to me that God wants us to sleep in the same bed, what do I say?
When H forwards me a link that seems to completely contradict his actions, but claims he believes it, how do I respond? I'll be honest and say that in this case, I probably was condescending. (What would the corresponding feeling? Shock? Disbelief? Confusion?) The article he sent me was the equivalent of someone handing me a magazine article about the benefits of being a vegetarian, while cutting into their 3-lb. New York strip on the plate next to a 2-lb. lobster tail, while telling me it represents everything they believe.
Ah, he has periodic limb movements. I have those. Not much to do about them really unless they are disturbing his own sleep. Does he act sleep deprived?
In any case, you might want to buy a memory foam mattress or a memory foam mattress topper (high density at least 4" thick). Overstock has them at a decent price. You may find that it dampens his movements enough that you aren't disturbed. Plus, they're *great*.
BTW, FWIW, this stuff about requiring bible citations or some other formal justification for what H wants in an M should be jettisoned immediately. What is important is what makes a good M to him. Period. Now, you may or may not want to try to accommodate his wishes, but he certainly should NOT have to justify them.
OT, he only acts sleep deprived in that he can't stay awake during a movie, but he's also laying down with a pillow and blanket, so who would stay awake?
Thanks for the info on the mattress, but that doesn't address the snoring.
I get that I can't ask him to tell me where he gets the idea that it's what God wants us to do. I believe he's only going there because him telling me it's what HE wants me to do isn't getting him what he wants. I know what NOT to do. I just don't know what TO do, short of agreeing to do what he wants.
Hey, I think there are great health benefits to being a vegetarian and that there are other moral reasons to be a vegetarian. I am not currently a vegetarian. So?
You write: "For example, the article states, "The best sex is the mutual giving of our body to our spouse -- nobody should be making anyone have sex; that's selfish and using the other person for your personal gratification and purpose." Yet he's insisting on sex when he knows I don't want to."
This I take it is where you say his actions contradict his beliefs. Well, maybe not. The article says the "best" sex is mutual. Certainly he could agree to that and want more of it even if he is willing to tolerate one-sided sex to meet his physical needs. Indeed, maybe he is trying to encourage you to be a more engaged sexual partner. The one-sided sex isn't going to be great for him either, ya know? It probably hurts him and makes him feel unattractive and unloved.
As for the rest, if you actually believe your H makes you have sex when you don't want to, you might want to consider filing rape charges. If what you are saying is that he pursues sex even though you lack interest, and then you choose to have sex even though you don't want it, well, you kind of need to own your choices.
I suggest you take him at his word. He seemed excited when he thought you heard him. H wants more great mutually satisfying sex. How can you engage more sincerely in sex? How can you enjoy sex more? How can you demonstrate in an authentic way that you want physical intimacy with H?
Why do you keep trying to trap H, trip him up, find fault, blame? Why do you keep trying to teach him a lesson? No one wants a cross mother as a lover or romantic partner.
