Specifics, please! Can't afford telephone consult!

[ptcr]

Just remembered something.....S16 grounded from sleep overs due to behavior involving these kids and some drinking/possibly worse activity.....so what now? Remind H this? If this goes on for the next who know how many months I cannot allow him to be under my strict patenting (sure have sleepover but at our house) and if it is Dad's "turn" it is a "do whatever" turn??? Remember, he is a pilot and this is his free time...only time for OW to fly down from JFK to see him so if I get a break it is when he is home.

[labug]

What can you do about it?

If you are truly concerned about your son's safety then you could bring it up with H. But really be aware of your motives for bringing it up. Is it due to concern for S or because you want to prove to H he is not parenting as you would?

[mishka422]

I would not step in the middle unless you are positive that his actions are having a direct affect on your sons. Like lbug said, his R with them is his to screw up. You are there to support them and pick up the pieces when he screws up their R.....and he will...trust me.

Now, you grounded S16 from sleepovers in general or sleepovers with just certain kids? Was H aware of this? If so, then reminding him in a gentle way would be called for. Not in a confrontational way but in a, "Hey, I'm not entirely sure, but didn't we agree to restrict S16 from staying with so and so (or restrict him from sleeping over period..whatever the case may be)? I have this nagging memory of it but want to make sure so I stay consistent."

Let it fall back to him to pull that from his memory banks. You aren't accusing him of anything, you aren't badgering him, you are asking for his help (something men LOVE to do), and you are pulling him back into the parenting decisions without nagging at him.

[25yearsmlc]

Hi PTC,

a quick suggestion for posting would be to break it up into small paragraphs so it's easier to read.

25yrsMLC...so what do I believe? The stuff he was saying before the MLC or during. That is what is confusing me. He is definitely doing a 180.

how is HE doing a 180? As for your own personal issues, ask yourself what you THINK is valid, and tell us what he said both times...

so are you wondering if this is MLC? It is a pattern so MLC isn't the term that I'd use. PERHAPS it's symptomatic of intermittent depression but if you spend all your energy "diagnosing" him, you take the focus off the one person/variable in this that you DO control...which is YOU. You simply MUST grasp this....most of your post is about HIM and what you think he's doing/planning/feeling.

My own personal regret in my sitch was how much time I spent and WASTED on that same thing. Why my h was doing what he was doing, what he was thinking/feeling or planning. INSTEAD

I could have spent that time and energy on creating a new better ME and better life and future for myself and my children. Not on what I could not control. Besides, I'm convinced I'll never understand why my h had his crisis and obsession about living on the tundra at all costs or how he could put & keep the blinders on so long. So I don't spend ANY energy wondering about something he himself probably doesn't grasp.



I love this man dearly, probably too much.

interesting ^^^^comment/insight. What does this mean &

how has that fact hurt your m?

I think I lost myself to parenting my children in his absence all these years and stopped being ME. In MC after he moved out the first time and before he moved out the 2nd,

what, if anything, did YOU or HE CHANGE after the first sep and or, after the second separation? Far too many people "reconcile" but find themselves in the same position (but older) not too long after, b/c they really did NOT learn and grow from the first crisis. There was no change so that "definition of insanity" came into play; i.e., repeating the same behavior but expecting different results.

Learn from this and the prior separations. Be a better stronger different YOU-- so that you get a little back AND more importantly, so you don't find yourself here ever again. It'll help YOU and your cause to take the focus off of him and put it onto YOU....you are the one posting here and we can do nothing for or about him.


they told us we had a long history, we were very attached to one another and that we obviously cared about one another and that if he "really" wanted to be gone he would be but that he was here trying....found out he was lying to them about OW. So what to believe.

IF he was lying while IN Marriage counselling, that negates a helluva lot of what the mc said. Their insights were not valid, to me, b/c they are based on lies and omissions. So let's believe the truth, not their inadequately formed opinions, and even if you see their opinions as valid,

they don't say he won't repeat this behavior.

They say "he hadn't left yet and there's love between you two." I don't doubt he loves you. But he has at least a 2 yeaar pattern of cheating...

whether it's depression, and or a character flaw, is not relevant to ME
b/c

it's now a pattern he's Not showing any signs of changing.

Can you handle an open marriage? Most people can't.

And in truth, he's not asking for one either.



He thought was I was too "emotinally needy" at the end of a 6-day trip when he would come hom and maybe i would be "better off married to a 9-5 guy." I cried (should have read DB after he came back the first time)

not sure when this^^^ happened. Two things struck me as important. First, you did not read the DB books and so I am guessing you took him back and he returned....but neither of you had changed the dynamic in the marriage. Bummer b/c, here we are.

Second, he said you were too needy. If you "did" everything for him and the family, so that all he had to do was show up to work and come home, that means he was a taker, and yet that you somehow showed him needs he felt uncomfortable with or burdened by.

What do YOU think HE meant? If it was valid, Have you worked on this issue in you? Also, I want to repeat this question--what is YOUR love language and what is his?

(IF you don't know what I mean, there's a book I suggest ALL couples read, called "The Five Love Languages" and in it, we often discover that how WE SHOW love may not be how our spouses receive it.

My h's love language is physical touch and words of affirmation but the way I usually give love is by acts of service and that's what I want back.

So we've each had to make adjustments in how we give and receive love b/c hey, who wants to reject or ignore love when it's sent - just b/c it's not wrapped in the right way?

Then again, if you are not expressing your love in a way he gets, then his love tank may be empty...and then, there's YOUR love tank. When was the last time yours was full?

Do you think you were insecure b/c he left-- and your instincts were right, OR did you create problems with insecurity and not feeling appreciated?



because I handle everything in our lives..I was pregnant and delivered our first son by myself on a 6-month deployment. I feel quite capable. Probably too capable?

but HE says you were too "emotionally needy". Is that a lie? Seems there's a disconnect here.

He comes and goes with such regularity it is hard to vacilate from needy wifey to independent single parent and when he is home he is tired and has all the household stuff to do that falls into his purview.

so you don't actually "do everything"? That's not a croticism, but a question.

And why would you ever want to be a "needy wifey"? Why not stay independent while letting him feel welcome in the home?

As a military veteran/wife, I am familiar with the absentee h who returns and gives orders a bit too quickly after we've done just fine without him,

(or not so fine but hey, we DID ultimately manage w/o him).

No one likes getting bossed around the minute the returning spouse walks in and change where the artwork is hung, or comments on something that sounds negative or controlling. Always takes adjustment time, as all deploying soldiers are reminded.


IC says he is depressed and blaming me and to keep on keeping on with routine i have established years ago.

do these ^^^guesses or observations re your h, help you move forward?

I'm more interested in what YOUR IC says about you...see, you keep making this about him & 'why' 'why' 'why'? Don't!

It keeps you spinning your wheels. So, Back to YOU now--

I am so confused. When I ask him, he refuses to talk about it. I don't ask often. I don't take the temperature of our relationship...i do know that! Sunday he announced he was moving out....hung out together all week like nothing was wrong, went to trivia night, rented a movie, golf cart ride, played Rock Band,

worked on budget, enjoyed candlelit dinners and dinner with son and then Friday he says "you know I am still leaving" and he "guessed he confused us" but "we had a nice time and I fixed stuff around the house."


to him it's easier to act as if all is well & her's a good guy,--- "but you two" are no longer "working as a couple", "grew apart", blah blah blah...Plus it convinces him that he's only changing partners and no other byproduct of his actions will occur when he's gone.

I am NOT suggesting you "teach him a lesson" b/c that's not a spouse's job. And LIFE does that for them.

but don't protect him from them either...

And it is usually better for the WAS to not be abusive or mean -of course- but as you've discovered, it can also be confusing. Til if & when he retracts AND CHANGES, you must assume he's still going.

In my situation, I made far too many assumptions based on "kindness/fun" by h & would've made different choices if I'd had my eyes open & didn't let false hope blur my vision. I regret that. It cost us a fortune & maybe a lot of pain could've been avoided if I'd seen the truth earlier. Might have sped things up.


I was not begging, pleading, anything. I told him Tuesday of that same week that if he needed to go I understood and that I did not want to be lied to and cheated on. Tuesday! Later that day he asked me to hang out. We worked on our budget all week, getting reading for taxes and FASFA for our S18, and he NEVER mentioned the money he would need to move out. That has become an evil monster - needs more after each trip. So, please tell me what it is you think I could do/change.


I don't know how you act around him so it's hard to advise specifically, but I would start by being a lot less predictable. A bit of mystery is almost always a good idea.


He has texted me a few times (took S16 skiing out West to see his parents..when I called them to talk to S16 who was asleep his Mom asked how I was doing and she said "he is going through a MLC" and "at least there is not another woman involved" and that H said "hopefully we can reconcile." Okay, do I believe ANY of that.

you don't believe that^^^^ b/c it's not true!...and it's a label FAR TOO MANY people love to use. I don't think MLCs are more likely to return, btw.

One reason the label is used is to deflect from selfish choices & character flaws (as your h is) and to avoid real work on ourselves, as I think you both may be doing. He'd rather blame a "phase" than himself, for engaging in long term deceit & adultery, and you want to believe he''ll "snap out of it" if you wait long enough. RIght or wrong, Neither of those beliefs helps your cause.

Please, If you learn nothing else from this ordeal, learn these 2 things:
1) you really do CONTROL ONLY YOU

and

2) the real journey in life is an inward one.

Dig deep.


He did not tell his Mom the truth and he is not ACTING like he hopes we reconcile.

correct! I think we can agree he's not an emotionally brave guy.

Anyway....I drove up to our lake house ----very surprised I was staying by myself (family lives about an hour away). So victory on that 180!!!


Good. Max out on those^^^!!

I have been journalling like mad since I arrived and thoroughly enjoying myself and have heard from him only once with pics of S16 snowboarding. No mention of money or anything else from last phone conversation last week. So I am just leaving it at that.

It's crucial you protect yourself legally/financially. It's not as if you have not been warned.

and fwiw, I filed for a sep b/c I honestly feared my h would mortgage our home to "invest" with his heroes in Alaska. So a few years pass and we're here and h blurts out that he is glad "WE did not mortgage our house for those guys", as if he really does not recall it was MY FILING that prevented it.

(Nope, I did not bring it up.Sometimes the most loving thing to say is nothing.) But it tells me again, I did the right thing by me and the kids

AND it turns out I did right by h too. Ironic.




He is solid GONE. He did go into the house on Friday when they did not get on the flight (standby passengers) and stayed in S18's room. I asked him not to go in the house but he said he "wouldn't be denied access" so do I change the locks when I get home? Really feel like it would escalate things. Follow my gut, right? Help!!!!!

what does your L tell you? Although I'm a L myself, my "advice" is to see one. Ask them. And as painful as this is to hear, know that statistically men put much much more thought into leaving AND into the financial aspects

than their wives knew or expected. It doesn't mean he's accurate but I'd bet a lot that he HAS planned this and is hiding assets or thinks he'll get way more than he will. I know my h did.

I was glad he saw a L. Why? So he knew I wasn't lying and he knew the real costs of a divorce. If money was a problem before, it was a bigger one if we divorced. Same for you.

Don't worry that he'd come back "only" for the money. Who cares why they return, IF and only if, the work is really done?

If you do reconcile I'll assume you get real counselling and you both change the way you interact and commit, and he'll do the work to regain your trust.

Without that work and rebuilding the trust, would you want this marriage?

Meaning, if he returns with his tail between his legs but doesn't really "get it", AND isn't motivated to improve the marriage so much as prolong it,

would that be enough for you?

You SAY you don't want lying and cheating in the marriage.

but you have tolerated it for at least 2 years.

What does that tell him? What does it mean?

[ptcr]

Hi 25. Thank you for your time and attention to my post.

I meant by his 180 comment that I am still trying to decide if this is a MLC or a symptom of depression, bipolar, alcoholism. This behavior is very erratic in my opinion. But then again, he was cheating on my for 2 years without my knowledge so maybe not true.
He said more than once we were best friends, companions and our sex lives were not good enough and that he wanted to experiment because we got married so young at 22.

Holy cow...you hit the nail on the head. My entire thought process IS about him. You are exactly right. Thank you. I am wasting my precious energy on him/diagnosing him/guessing what he is thinking/doing, etc.

Love him TOO much meaning that I managed our lives and allowed myself to disappear thinking this was a loving act. Who knows. I think what you said later is very true. Do I love this man or the security of marriage or the early years or the idea of being married more than what our marriage had become by summer (weeks before he let me in on the fact that he had been fooling around for 18 months at that point) because this summer he was a miserable person and he made us all very unhappy with his quick temper and easy criticism. S16 says it is way less stressful with him OUT of the house.

MC insight helpful. You are correct again...he was lying so it does negate plenty. He is NOT willng to change and nor does he want an open marriage. He just wants his way.

Emotionally needy..I have always been social and have lots of friends, volunteer at church, school, etc, and I am always excited to see him and hear about his trips. I think it was my instinct...my questioning to him sounded like grilling because he was running around is my guess. Read love languages books at church and he is physical touch/words of affirmation and mine is acts of service/time. When I used that this Fall after he returned, he could not handle either and said it made him feel guilty. Yes, I have DB book now and should have read it after 1st departure but read Surviving an Affair and Dobson's Tough Love and Torn Asunder and felt we were making progress with the MC, IC and our trip to Italy.

His purview was outdoor yard work and big projects, deck building, installing lighting, sinks, handyman stuff. Yes, went to plenty of deployment seminars about sharing the mantle of responsibility and the trials associated with return from det, deployment, etc.

I am making a list of things to work on in myself.

All this blathering and I am still trying to figure HIM out and writing about HIM. I think I get it. This time is about ME. Someone remind me of that.

So, stopping at S18's college and decided to spend the night since I have cat and dog and can't really leave them in the car...and it is a 7 hour drive there and then 2-1/2 more home. H is so mad. How does this coparenting work while dim/dark? He is in our home watching Tyler and said he will "need 2 hours notice" on my return. Yes, Tyler has ADHD and anxiety. He went through a spell of cutting and burning himself a year or 2 ago. He hangs out with known felons and potheads. He sees a counselor on a biweekly to monthly basis (was more often earlier). He is an A student and planning to attend college, but his friends have dropped out of high school and attend some online school.

My idea from earlier suggestion is just leave H out of it entirely when I return from this trip. Either take Tyler with me or find a friend if I go out of town and leave his Dad alone because he will think I am controlling him...

So, my plan is to stop obsessing about him. Stop thinking about him. Out of his vortex. Don't change locks because legally cannot. Quit trying to figure out why or what is going on in his head because I cannot. Hold on tight. Keep praying for patience. Stop spying on him.

Mishka, seen any DBing from pilots? Last thought of 25 scares me...IF he is willing to do the work. His ego is so huge and that is our biggest obstacle as you know from your laundry list of pilot traits that describe him perfectly. Back in the bubble tomorrow. Appt with Wells Monday (gravely voice, answered her own phone yesterday??). Would love to meet at the Avenue at Starbucks after 12 if you are interested.

[ptcr]

Labug...parenting S16 has been a struggle for us but we always agreed on how to handle him, took him to counseling, etc, how to ground him and from whom (gave up trying to choose friends, just managed if and when he spent the night anywhere). So, we have always parented the same.

I guess I am still in shock he is choosing to parent the way he has in the 3-1/2 weeks since he left...which is if they don't want to talk to me then fine I wont bother them and then the I am going to my room and you go to sleep over and maybe I will see you tomorrow before your work and don't forget to lock the house and close the garage when you leave or his idea that S16 could stay by himself (nevermind meals or anything like that and H is a GREAT cook). Again, like 25 said, why am i wasting my mental energy. I guess I keep thinking I will see a whisper of my old husband in this madness, the one that cares about our kids and could not imagine his life without them, etc. They are both Eagle Scouts and spent LOTS of time in the woods camping with their Dad over the years, lots of community service work together, HUGE Eagle projects together. Shocks me.

STOP being shocked. I know! Going to get in the car, step away from this forum and think good thoughts and listen to my book on my iphone.

[labug]

Yes, it all gets very unsettling but once you find your ground it'll get better.

25 is right, let H go. The sooner you can get him out of your head, the better. You can't make him(H) do anything so you have to decide how to best handle your son.

All the diagnosing in the world won't change anything. You just have to take it one day at a time.

Have you read Codependent No More?

[mishka422]

I would love to get together but I can't for the next week. My FIL is in town visiting for the first time in 11 years...yike. I'm a basket case. He arrives tonight and he and I don't exactly have the warm fuzzies for each other. *sigh*

You know, sometimes it's hard to focus on ourselves when we are hurting, but that is exactly what you have to do.

Do you realize that putting everyone in your family before yourself is a codependent behavior? Yeah, I didn't either. I always that it was being a good wife and mother. NOPE. Doing that, even though you are involved in activities, makes your true self disappear. That is the person our spouses fell in love with. You need to find that person again.

You and your H sound a lot like me and mine in the respect of getting M'd really young. There is good and bad in getting married that early. Yes, you are in love and full of energy and gung ho to start your life. The drawback is that you haven't truly formed your own identity yet and you find ways to morph yourself into an image of what you think your spouse likes. It's not even a matter of conscious change, it's a lack of maturity that causes you to gradually shift yourself.

Step back from everything and take a close look at what you are doing.

1)Do you do the volunteer work at your church strictly because it makes you feel good and feel like you are contributing? If so, keep doing it. If you can be honest with yourself and you find that even a small reason you are doing it is because of how it makes you appear in other people's eyes....STOP...NOW.

2)Do you make time in your schedule to specifically do something you enjoy? Do you do crafts? Do you like to dance? What about exercise? Take a class? What makes you uniquely you? If you can't answer that, it's time to find out.

3)This part can be scary. Where do you see yourself being in 1 year? We aren't going out to 5 years, that is a ridiculous thing especially when your life is in upheaval. Just think 1 year out. Where do you want to be? What will you be doing? Not involving your M, take that out of the equation. What will YOU be doing?

Think these things through and let us know what you come up with.


We will definitely set up a time to meet! I'm always excited to make new friends!

[ptcr]

Wow...hadn't heard that description of codependent stated in terms like that before. Yes, I will read that book. That is what H is struggling against. He has said those very words to me...married so young, we weren't fully ourselves, he has been living a life that wasn't the "real" him to expectations someone else set. Those statements are true based on what you said above.

Yes, I do like to volunteer at church! I love Andy Stanley and his relevant message and radical church for outsiders mentality.

Had a good time with my son today. Checked into a hotel and left the pets and then toured campus, had dinner and went to debate society meeting where my son spoke! He is brilliant! I find myself telling them things about ME that had never come up before, what I DID in college, etc that had nothing to do with their Dad. Me, me, me. Interesting. Home tomorrow.

Okay, can I share my latest stab in the heart? H sends flirty text to me and then another that was x-rated and mentioned OW being at our lake house in Va. I texted back "H, this is me. Are you saying OW was at our lake house?" Just let him go....I know. Are these little painful reminders that he detached from me long, long ago helpful in just releasing him. I was shaking. It just hurts so much. I feel so alone and rejected and abandoned and just plain awful. To top it off, my S18 was right there with me and i was shaking and in shock and tears. I feel peace and then he grabs me into his miserable vortex and spits me in pieces.

I have an interview at the Botanical Gardens to be an outdoor cooking assistant in the Spring and Summer for visiting chefs. I am also thinking of a personal chef business. I am tired of working from home as a medical transcriptionist, which I only did part time for the past 4 years. It is so isolating. I am an outgoing person and don't need to work from home to manage the children on/off bus, etc, anymore. I have an English degree but never had any desire to teach. Hmmm....plans for 1 year from now. I will get back to you.

Good luck with FIL this week. My calendar is open, so let me know when you'd like to meet! So many fake people in this town, it would be nice to know a few more people who aren't "perfect"! Tried that tennis scene...yuck!

[Cadet]

It is very empowering to meet other LBS, we all have a bond that seems to instantly form. I highly encourage you to do this. Most important thing right now PTC is to focus on you and on what it is that you want. Take the focus off of your husband because he is truly lost. He may or may not be back, but you can deal with that later, right now YOU are what matters most.

MLC is the OPPOSITE of everything that you ever knew and learned. It is a very hard concept to understand.
Keep reading and learning because if you do you can keep your mistakes to a minimum.
This is a long hard road but you just need to travel it one step at a time, and try to enjoy the sights along the way.