My last sentence was a reflection of the fact that I enjoy perfect strangers more than my H, that I can be more certain of receiving basic courtesy from them than I am from him.
You have a great way of phrasing.
After reading your post, I decided to look up the dictionary definition of trust, and it is "confident expectation of something; hope." So I see this jibing with your comments on expectations, but I thought I understood your comments to be indicating that expectations (of others) was bad. In that case, there can be no trust of anyone else if we can't expect anything from them. (Expectations are a whole other animal that I've read both sides argued. I've heard don't have expectations because they're bad, and I've heard that not having expectations of something better causes people to settle and life (marriage) becomes stagnant/complacent.)
Some things I want from my H are things that I want my way (not using me as the brunt of his jokes, for example.) Most things I really don't care. I can't even imagine having an issue about when/where/how the trash is taken out. Ironically, this is the one thing that I could say he does and is very good about. Unfortunately, I can't build a marriage relationship on his taking out the trash.
And on that note, that's exactly the problem. We never get past the "little" things, because he usually doesn't deliver. For example, he'll drop S off at school occasionally, but inevitably leaves his lunch in the car. Or he picks up S and then leaves with his schoolbag in his car so that S can't do his homework. The resulting inconvenience is not worth the small benefit. I'd rather just do it myself, not because it has to be done MY way, but because there are ramifications to other areas if he fails. And honestly, he just fails so often on the little stuff, I can't imagine how to move on from there.
Besides taking out the trash, the things I can trust him on aren't positive. I can trust that he's going to fall asleep 5 minutes after the start of a movie or 5 minutes after he picks up a book. I can trust that he'll be snoring 10 minutes after that. I can trust that what he says has little relation to what he actually does. I can trust that I will come out figuratively bloodied after any conversation with him regarding my differing opinion of his family. I can trust that anything he promises will be completely forgotten 3 days later. All these things, I have a "confident expectation."
I was just asking myself the difference in trust in these things, like does it affect my trust of him if H falls asleep, or does it change for me if he occasionally doesn't fall asleep. I think in that case, the answer is no because it simply doesn't impact me, except that I won't sit down with him anymore to watch "his" movie. So even his staying awake doesn't change whether I watch "my" movie. It used to annoy me that he would rent a movie that wasn't something I was interested in and ask me to watch it with him, then fall asleep 5 minutes later. Since I don't do that anymore, I've simply removed the problem, but of course that creates a different one (another 'pseudo' shared activity lost.) So in a sense, it seems like pretty much the same thing -- he's taught me what to expect and I've adjusted my life to accommodate it. The one expectation that I don't carry anymore is expecting that he'll change.
oh no, there's nothing wrong with expectations, in a general sense. Insurance agents and brokers make "good money" on the difference between statistical confidence and our emotional confidence. In fact, confident expectations (or trust) is a cornerstone of commerce and society in general. Hope is simply projecting trust into the future.
Many who come here though, are "out of trust". In other words, they and most likely their spouses (no matter which "side" one is on) are desperately dealing with trust issues. In getting our feet back on solid ground, we do need to shut that spout and ground ourselves again. Thus, no expectations. "A beginner's mind". Seeing their spouse as (potentially) a stranger and work on rebuilding that trust on both sides.
That's not necessarily how DB explains it. It ends up being part of the process. And some are never able to get that trust back.
So I'm going to jump a few pages ahead. Let me know if this is too much of a stretch to process.
Humans have a "shame and blame" feature. It's pretty automagic. It's part of what puts us into victim mode. When we feel core shame we have a tendency to go into fight mode, as opposed to flight mode. Not sure why this happens, I guess we feel more cornered because we can't escape our feelings. So if we can't use flight, we use fight.
So extrapolate our loss of trust in another, as a loss of confidence in ourselves, and we fall into shame mode. As we are unbalanced and unsure of how to trust ourselves, we feel shame. And how can we be responsible with making ourselves feel bad? We would never do that to ourselves. So there MUST be a reason, someone else MUST be responsible. We set our targets on those most familiar to us.
OK, now... we're gonna use those concepts in DBing parlance...
Two eyes, two ears... one mouth... translates to communication...
Two fifths observation, two fifths listening... and one fifth talking...
And the ONLY way communication goes from our mouth to their ears is when they are open... but they SEE... unless they are closing their eyes whenever in your presence or the presence of your influence.
I won't have too much fun with that one, but I COULD go on and on with it.
If you WANT to trust your H, which by being here and saying you would like to save your M, then you MUST be willing to trust your H again... of allowing him to try to earn and regain that trust. If you do not begin, by believing that your H CAN change... then this is a futile exercise, right from the get go.
So... your task, if you choose to accept it, is to precisely define the tasks for your H to gain your trust. And then to communicate with him that you do NOT have confident expectations of him, but if he is willing, that he do a few things, consistently over time, to help your confidence increase.
You get to pick your battles here and define the battleground and rules of engagement.
Can we say that H getting S to school, on time and with the appropriate equipment be one of those things to work on?
What else? That he doesn't fall asleep when sitting down to a movie?
What else?
We NEED a method of measurement here. A base line. Without it, then you are a moving target which your H will NEVER be able to prove his intention to.
Okay, yes, the shame and blame thing was a little deep, but I get the idea.
Now, promise me you aren't going to jump down my throat about being intentionally vague and not answering some question on purpose. I really am trying. I'm just a little lost on this topic. H and I also had a conversation last night that's playing into my confusion, too.
First, I already trust that H is going to fall asleep on the sofa 5 minutes into a movie. He doesn't have to do anything different in that area for me to trust him. I've already told him specifically why I won't watch his movies with him, but he doesn't do anything different in order to accomplish it. He just says, "I know, but it was a long day and I'm tired....etc." Of course, this same behavior happens every time, in the middle of a Saturday afternoon, and even in a movie theater, so it seems he's just "always tired." Fine. Nothing needs to change there, we have no conflict, I watch my movies, he sleeps. If my not watching his movie with him ever really becomes a problem for him, then I expect him to do something different. Otherwise, I don't care.
We had a similar issue several months ago in regards to sleeping together. He snores and I don't sleep well with him so I sleep in the other bedroom. He wants us to sleep together. I've told him exactly why I don't want to. (Several years ago, he got a cpap to help with his snoring but he doesn't like to wear it.) Anyway, at one point I reengaged and agreed to sleep in the same bed as him, as that was one of his big complaints. Although I was investing first, he didn't even bother to wear his cpap (because it's uncomfortable, because he has a cold, because he forgot, etc.) It seems to me that if he really wants something, he would at minimum make it inviting/comfortable for me to accommodate.
He has another issue, one that was discussed last night. He wants me to go to church with him. I used to earlier in our marriage, but I found that he was completely unreceptive to any conversation afterward, either about the sermon or the music, whatever. At least anything where I didn't completely agree with him. If it was anything more than a superficial question, he would tell me to go ask someone else, and would make no attempt to find out or research the answer himself. At the same time, he likes to beat his chest about how God wants him to be the spiritual leader of the family and I'm supposed to follow him (do what he wants me to do.) I finally got tired of the hypocrisy and the lack of sharing and stopped going. It's like going to a movie with a friend, but having a rule that you can't talk about the movie before, during or after. Then what's the point of going to the movie together???
Well this problem has been going on for years, yet last night he was complaining again about my not going with him, even though he has done nothing to address the reasons why I don't go with him. He even went so far as to explain why he hasn't done anything -- he doesn't like conflict, he doesn't have the answers, he thinks we should just automatically be on the same page, he thinks I'm too complicated and ask too difficult of questions, he thinks the answer is obvious and doesn't understand why I don't 'get it,' etc. In spite of all this, he still expects me to go, "because that's what healthy married Christian couples do."
We've had a similar discussion about the S/school issue. I've explained how disruptive it is to my day to have to drop what I'm doing and bring S his lunch, or worse, S not be able to do his homework because H has run off with his schoolbag. I've given him specific instructions -- as soon as you hand S his lunch, make sure he puts it IN his schoolbag, then he can't leave it. Or the minute you get home with son, have him take everything out of the car (he's done this with his winter coat, too) and bring it in the house. There is no reason to leave anything in the car. These seem pretty specific to me, but he doesn't do it.
I also mentioned in a previous post the topic of his weight loss in reference to his actions not matching his words. I was trying to give him an opportunity to earn my trust by letting him use something he wanted to do, and show that his words and actions were consistent. I thought it was a great idea because weight loss requires a long-term discipline and a lifestyle change, and isn't that really what we're talking about with regaining trust? And I thought that it seemed relevant that if he couldn't change his behavior to accomplish a goal that HE wanted, how likely would it be that he could change his behavior for something I wanted. Anyway, it seemed like a good idea, but I got in trouble for being the diet police, or something like that.
My point behind this is that I have already given him very specific things he needs to do in order earn my trust, but he has a thousand excuses why he doesn't do them. He even used to have lists taped to his bathroom mirror, yet he would be standing right in front of the list doing the exact opposite of what the instruction said.
The other side to this is that in spite of what I consider very specific instructions, he will distort what I've asked or said I want. Some time back, we had a discussion about sex, how it's unsatisfying for me, that I've been unsuccessful in instructing H. He said he would do some research, would do whatever, even go to a sex therapist if I wanted. I said there were plenty of books out there. Six months later, the topic came up again and I asked what progress he had made, and he said none because since we had gone awhile w/o sex, he didn't feel a sense of urgency, and he thought that a sex therapist would require both of us. So when we reengaged, it was just as unsatisfying for me as it was before. I said again that there was plenty of information available for him that didn't require a therapist. More months went by, another dry spell, nothing done on his part. Finally, after being nagged into sex because it's my "wifely duty," I agreed to the "act." Since he got in trouble before for not doing anything, NOW he wants to talk technique (still hasn't actually done any research on his own.) I told him it wasn't relevant and I wasn't interested in working on that right now because the mental/emotional issues in our relationship would guarantee failure anyway. I wasn't wanting to have sex, I was just tired of being nagged about it. I also told him that if he were a surgeon, he would spend a lot of time in books and labs before he would ask a loved one to lay down on the operating table to be cut open, yet he hadn't spent any time learning on his own but was expecting me to let him fumble on me. So about two weeks later, he schedules an appointment with a sex therapist and then gets mad at me because I don't want to go. He said I told him to do it. No, I told him to get a book, he suggested a therapist. Plus, that was also a very long time ago when I was still trying to enjoy sex. That's not the case anymore. I finally told him that, in regards to sexual technique, unless the book he's reading frequently uses the word clitoris, then he's not reading the right book. Is that specific enough without being controlling?
This is an extreme example, but it happens in many other little ways, too. Gardening is another example. 18 years ago, I wanted him to garden with me. For the last 15 or so I haven't wanted him to, and have told him so and told him why (eg. he doesn't know a weed from a flower.) But I'm the problem because now he's trying to "do what I want" (garden with me) and I won't let him, in spite of the fact that he still doesn't know a weed from a flower.
Well I think I've babbled on long enough. You certainly can't say I'm holding anything back! You say you think it can be saved, and I want to believe that, but I just don't see what you do. I don't know what I'm missing. it's not that I would feel any better if someone said, "Well, CV, you're right, it's completely hopeless." It's just the elusive "how."
A week or so ago, I had agreed to one night a week of his choice of activities -- his choice, his schedule, his plans. This is because of his insistence that "healthy married couples do things together." Nevermind the fact that we're not healthy and he hasn't addressed any of the issues that make me not want to do anything with him. But I'm supposed to give him opportunity, so that's what I'm doing. We've already discussed extensively the things I don't like. He wants me to remind him every time before we go out. I think that's ridiculous. If I agree to do it, it might make for a more pleasant evening, but it will offset any gain in trust that would be accomplished if he could actually be responsible to remember it himself, which I thought was the goal.
We will put the specific trust challenges aside for the time being. We WILL get back to them and I would ask that you keep thinking about them. Keep a pen and paper handy with you so that when you think of some, write them down.
What was it that you believe your H's love language is? And I know you mentioned it before, but what did you say your LL is?
What do you think might be the cause of your H's depression? I'm not asking IF you think he is depressed. I'm asking WHY he might be depressed. Any ideas?
One thing people spend their lives doing, is being unique. Of being an individual. And in that, we loose sight of how we are not at all unique, in very specific, human ways.
Yes, we wear our hair different, we have different interests, different body types, different lives... but we all function at very core levels, exactly the same.
As you process the idea of "shame and blame" in yourself... understand that your H is doing exactly the same thing... feeling exactly the same things...
What do you think HIS core shame, is? What is it that he is highly critical about, of himself?
How would I know that? We have a superficial relationship at best. It's not something he would ever share with me, if he's even aware of it himself.
I am actually asking you to do a little, covert research on him...
I will give you a hint and let you know VERY SPECIFICALLY that this is a communications test for you. I want you to figure out how to find out. I am willing to give you some "help", but I'd like you to try on your own, first. Think about the many ways you could find that information out and what questions you might ask to get that information and use them to gather the intel.
And I do want to know what you find out, because I will relate that to some of the described behaviours you've indicated in your #2224660 post above.
Ah, OK on the LL list. I can work with that, although many people will list LLs as defined in the book, "The 5 Love Language" by Gary Chapman.
That list is:
Words of Affirmation Quality Time Gifts Acts of Service Physical Touch
If you have not read 5LL, would you be able to guess what your H's are and what yours are? There is a web site for the book and other content out there which can describe those stated LLs if you need a better idea of what they entail.
Those as well I will relate to your #2224660 post as well as others. And that, along with the trust challenges, will be used to develop the plan that will hopefully save your M.
Make sense? I think we're almost at the end of discovery here and close to action plans.
Are you telling me that I could research and find out how to tell why he's depressed?? If I thought he was, I would just ask him outright what was wrong, albeit in a kind and caring way. Probably not the best approach, but the best I've got. I'm not really sure that he is. If he is, it sure doesn't affect his life in a visible way, at least not anything I would recognize as depression (lethargy, sadness, inability to get about of bed, lack of enjoyment of hobbies, disinterest in sex, lack of performance at work, isolation from friends, etc.) So that doesn't even provide a target behavior to inquire about.
The LL list we did was more specific. Frankly, I liked it better. For example, he doesn't need quality time, just quantity time (re: recreational companionship.) I think this changes, though. I think we need almost all of them, and if you're getting one and not another, suddenly your "need" is different. I also remember years ago when we did it the first time, we had discussions that the LL you give doesn't necessarily match the LL you like to receive, which complicates it further. I'll just assume you're looking for what he likes to receive, and I would say quality (quantity) time first, and words of affirmation second.
Oh, and mine would be quality time, as described by the site (turn off the tv, put down your fork, look me in the eye, etc.) H is content sleeping through a movie "together."
