Find a way to have your actions match your words...
if your words are telling him your want to work on things... then do actions which show you are working on things...
your description of his behaviour (sitting and watching you) indicate... SHOW... that he is trying to work on things... no matter if it doesn't look the way you see it in your mind... his ACTIONS show he's trying...
GM, I'm here because of S11. I'm firm in that decision.
KD, my actions are NOT showing that I'm trying. My words are NOT telling him that I want to work on things. I've told him for some time that I'm doing my best to stay as far away from him as possible, that I don't want to do anything with him, that I don't enjoy his company, that he's mean to me and makes me feel bad about myself. The few 180's I am doing are just to get him to stop complaining about it (ie. engaging with my steps.)
This goes back to my distorted WAW position. I'm the one doing the GAL, the going dark, and suddenly H has noticed and wants to know where I've gone, why I'm not tailing around behind him like a lost puppy. But is that really any different than what a WAS is doing regardless of DB? I read so many times on this board, and in the books, that the LBS is only interested in the WAS after they've walked away. Suddenly, the LBS is willing to do anything and everything. Maybe it has nothing to do with DB. It certainly wasn't my initial motivation, as I had already reached that point before I even read the book, and H hasn't read the book yet either. Maybe it's just the dance that happens at the death of a marriage.
KD, I know he's trying. He would tell you he has been throughout our entire marriage. He just never succeeds. As Yoda would say, "You do or you don't, there is no 'try.'" As long as he can say he's 'trying,' then he can't be held liable, even if there's nothing tangible or measurable in his daily activities. He's one that would tell you he's trying to lose weight, but then doesn't exercise or change his eating habits. It's as if the thought of it is more than enough effort. So if he's trying to get to know me, but never succeeds, does it really matter? I'm still left with a completely unfulfilling marriage. It would be the equivalent of saying that I'm trying to work into my schedule a time for sex, but never actually showing up. My H would clearly have an issue with that, but I could just keep claiming that "I'm trying." Honestly, someone tell me, if this is how it really works, then I'm totally on board. If I can just make appeasing promises without ever having to deliver, and it then becomes his responsibility to be pleased and happy in our marriage, then sign me up!
If it's not this way, then I'm not sure how I can be expected to be pleased and happy either.
You asked be before, KD, if I wanted to save my marriage. My answer was yes. But I'd like to clarify. I have a vision of what marriage is supposed to be, and I just don't know if it's possible with him. And I don't have pie-in-the-sky ideals either, I'm way too practical for that. Like honesty...Is that really too much to ask? That your S won't look you in the eye and lie to your face to cover his tail? Or secretively contacting old GFs and reminiscing about how great life would have been if they had never broken up? Just to name a few.
Maybe I'm really just the textbook version of the WAW, but I'm still mourning the loss of my dream.
You asked be before, KD, if I wanted to save my marriage. My answer was yes. But I'd like to clarify. I have a vision of what marriage is supposed to be, ...
OK...
So what is your vision of what marriage is supposed to be...?
Please bear with me and do describe how it would look to you because I would like to discuss that with you.
I believe your M CAN be saved and it doesn't have to be you settling...
I'm going to get my new car today so won't be back till late this eve... take whatever time you need to articulate your thoughts on the M you want to be in...
- First, it's impossible without honesty and openness. And I don't mean honesty where I get the correct answer if I ask the right question, but the deepest level of intimacy. - I envision marriage to be a relationship where both people respect and honor the other person. I don't think you should treat perfect strangers better than you treat your spouse. - I think you should want to do things with your spouse, even if it's not always something you would choose to do, but that being with your spouse makes it worthwhile so you don't gripe and complain the whole time and make it miserable for both. - I think it's okay to have different opinions. I think it's a blessing, an opportunity, not an insult or criticism. - Sex should be for both parties involved, not just for the satisfaction of one and the frustration of the other. - You should be able to go through the day knowing that your spouse has your back. - You should know your spouse's love language and act upon it, daily.
The best description I heard was that marriage is when you care more for the other person's happiness than you do for your own.
To honesty and openness, how does one earn trust after it's lost? If someone's whole life consists of "How was your day?" relationships (except for his family,) and they don't even seem to want more, how can that be fostered?
To honor and respect, how can that be changed when the mentioning of an unappreciated treatment is interpreted as criticism, and subsequently defended? Or if it is heard, it's forgotten 20 minutes later?
As for sharing activities, how do you get someone to want to share your life, when the same person wasn't even content with you on your honeymoon? Sure, he'll do it and stop complaining now, but that doesn't mean he wants to do it. It's like having sex because it's your duty instead of it being something you enjoy sharing with the other person.
As to opinions, I've been trying for years to figure that one out, but the only thing that seems to be acceptable is not sharing my opinion at all.
As to sex, well, there's volumes written about that. My instruction/suggestions haven't "taken" (ie. been remembered). At this point, I have no interest with all the other problems.
As for having my back, there are too many more important people between him and me for that to happen. He told me once that he learned from his first marriage that wives are temporary but family is forever. What could he do besides cut ties with his whole family, as if that would work anyway?
As for love languages, he can't remember mine. Sort of moot, since the top two are honesty/openness and affection. Those two sort of conflict the the issues above.
So if YOU think it can be saved, what would YOU recommend he could do to improve our current reality?
Everything you said above is valid. And now, we need to work on the solutions.
Very few people meet someone, shake hands, get married, and then have sex and make babies... in an hour, a day, or weeks or even months... well, sometimes people just go from meeting and making babies in the same evening... but that's not generally a preferred option...
So, your first question:
How does one earn trust, once it's lost?
That's a huge question. Especially the last part.
Do you trust someone the moment you meet them?
What does it take to trust someone in the first place?
How do you KNOW they are being open and honest?
Does it really matter if they're completely open and honest, if all you are doing is buying batteries from them?
What we are talking about here is an M, which includes intimacy. Intimacy generally requires trust and openness and honesty. At least, to an extent.
What are you holding on to... that makes you not want to trust your H?
How can your H earn your trust?
Start small...
Ask him to take out the garbage. If he does so, will you trust him? What if you ask him a second time and he doesn't. Does that prove he cannot be trusted?
Trust is not just earned by being open and honest. It is earned through CONSISTENCY. And it's not just about the BIG things... it's about the little things, too. Because they "add up".
You will read on this site often, that this isn't a game of keeping score. Unfortunately, it is human nature to keep score...
If someone keeps lying to us, in one form or another, over and over and over again... well... continuing to trust them might be a form of insanity...
As a general rule, I have basic trust in perfect strangers. I trust they're not going to spit on me, trust they're not going to steal my purse, trust they're not going to hit my car, or be mean to me for no reason. I trust that they'll respond if I greet them, smile if I smile, sometimes enjoy simple chat. Most of the time, my trust is well-founded, sometimes not. I don't instantly trust a stranger with the welfare of my son or to watch my purse while I go to the ladies room. That requires a lot more intimate familiarity with the person. Trust is built upon a history of proving to be trustworthy, as well as a more intimate knowledge of them personally. Very little trust is needed when purchasing batteries, other than trusting you'll get the correct change.
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What are you holding on to... that makes you not want to trust your H?
I think we've developed such an independent relationship that I don't even need to trust him. I can do most things myself, and it's almost easier than the asking/reminding/checking/fixing that I have to do with him.
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Ask him to take out the garbage. If he does so, will you trust him? What if you ask him a second time and he doesn't. Does that prove he cannot be trusted?
To me, that is what it means. That's only a 50% success rate. If it's something important, I can't risk that.
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Is your H NOT trustworthy? Was he EVER?
I thought so or I wouldn't have married him. But I've learned since that he has no boundaries (he acknowledges.) So even though he said all the right things before we got married, and I think even believed them, he just doesn't have the character/fortitude/foresight/backbone to follow through on what he said. At the same time, he has a way of completely distorting things in his own mind to make a square peg fit in a round hole. For example, we've always paid cash for our vehicles. We had discussions about not liking monthly car payments, not liking to owe that much, etc. So recently, H buys a new car and takes out a home equity loan to pay for it, because then it wasn't a monthly "car" payment. I don't think he's being manipulative or even passive aggressive. I really think it's just his inability to apply boundaries. No matter what he commits to today, tomorrow's situation will be "different" somehow so he doesn't have to meet his commitment.
Sadly, after re-reading my first paragraph, I think I trust perfect strangers more than I do him.
Your last statement is really a great insight. I am curious to know what you were feeling... what you were thinking... upon saying that.
I want to put out there that... a perfect stranger is quite possibly likely to: spit on you, steal your purse, smash into your car, or do other negative things to you. Everyone is "capable" of doing so. What we do is we choose to believe they won't... they haven't given us a "reason" to believe they would...
What you can not deny, is your feelings that you can not trust your H. He has given you ample reasons to not trust him. It is impossible to see him as a perfect stranger...
But if you accepted that a perfect stranger is no less likely to abuse your trust as your H did... how could you change your thoughts about your H?
He can not EARN your trust, if you are not willing to give him your trust. In the same way that, as you begin to know a perfect stranger and become comfortable that you can trust them, you eventually can trust them to watch your purse, because they are no longer a perfect stranger... but... you had to task them, little by little, with new LEVELS of trust...
Which takes us back to one of the core teachings of DB. We need to change ourselves, in order to change the M.
One thing that people don't see at the surface, is that trust is one of those things that we project on others. When we say we don't trust someone else, underneath... we don't trust ourselves. We may have thoughts like, "How did I not see this coming." or "I can't believe I allowed that to happen to me."
Those thoughts and feelings come from being self critical and allow (some speak of this as our "inner child" loosing trust in ourselves to protect "them" *the inner child*) us to project that responsibility onto someone else.
When I give someone money for a purchase, I do not trust they will give me the correct change back. If I lend my car out to someone, I do not trust they will bring it back in one piece, or with a full tank of gas. When I am driving down the highway, I do not trust other drivers to not t-bone me at an intersection... but at the end of the drive, I am generally happy that nothing "bad" happened... because I KNOW it could have...
In that way... I can ALWAYS trust...
I expected that my W would never hurt me. I expected that my W would never "cheat" on me. And the truth is... that was my mistake. OF COURSE that was a possibility. OF COURSE my W was no less or more likely to do these things. What hurt is NOT that she hurt me or cheated on me... it was that I "allowed" myself to be hurt or cheated on. If I wanted that done right... then I should never have got M.
But then... I would never have lived life...
Trust is a funny thing, too... I can actually TRUST that a kleptomaniac is likely to steel again. I can TRUST that a liar will consistently lie. Trust... leads to expectations...
I expect that my W will continue to tell me to "f off" every time I ask her something about her personal life. I expect my W will continue to tell me that nothing happened between her and OM. Does this help to understand where trust actually comes from? It is US, projecting unto others, some expectation of their behaviours and actions.
Needing to trust someone can lead to co-dependency. But I do hope that you can TRUST your H to take care of your S, if you ever needed him to. Such as if you were suddenly hospitalised for some unfortunate accident or illness.
What I believe is, if I want something done "right"... then I need to do it myself. What this means is, if I want something done in a way that produces the results that I expect, then I should do it myself. If I am open to having something done in a different way than I would do it, and with potentially different results, then I can trust someone else to do it.
On these things that you can not trust your H... are your expecting the results to be exactly the way you want them? If so, then absolutely, you should do those things yourself. If you are open to having the garbage being taken out later, or being at a different spot at the end of the driveway... or even open to it not getting to the curb on time this week, but it will hopefully get there next week... the by all means, trust your H, your S, or a perfect stranger with that task.
If you really wanted your H to be everything you expect... than you really expected to M the male clone of yourself... none of us should ever expect that... and personally, I wouldn't want that... One of the identifiable, core human needs is the need for variety. Often, that is why we are attracted to our spouses. So why do we suddenly demand they stop offering that variety?
So lets get a little deeper into this first thing:
What WOULD you trust your H on, at this time?
What are the little things... name a couple... that you could trust him to do, consistently.
