Brand New here, my story, my ?'s

[BeingMe]

Wow, good imagery from your WAW, and I like your response to that. I think M's go through periods where things need a reboot, but both partners need to be on the same screen. I bet you've both been exhausted with twins in the house. If I got it right, you have four daughters ranging from twins2, d4 and d6? That is a lot of work, and not much time for much else. We had a D7 when our twins boy/girl were born, then we had another daughter five years later. All are adults now, thank goodness, although I miss those early days when they were so cute. But, we have 6 grandchildren now, that helps a little re the cuteness factor.

So, the point I'm trying to make, with a lot of words, is that it must be nice for your W to have OM to go to where there aren't all these child issues, and busy-ness of family life, to relax. But, of course, she should've turned to you, and tried to find a way and space that the two of you can relax away from the children.

In the end, the R with OM is unrealistic. She has to work on herself. Yes, she wants to be happy, and the hormones inducing those feelings of infatuation with OM, and idea of what it could be like, will still have one thing in common .... her. And she can't unring the bell on having the family she has with you. It will get even more complicated because I would imagine your daughters will resent this interloper.

You are getting IT ... one just has to be patient, and detached. You responded well when your W asked about your positive attitude. I guess they expect us LBS's to be sad, and upset, and showing that all the time. How narcissistic of them, right?!

Take care and keep up the 'tude.

[BeingMe]

Point unclear ... the hormones are making her think she's happy, but they can be quite a letdown later, unless she does the work on herself.

[Ichrus]

"BeingMe" Just to clarify, we have 3 girls, a 6yo and twin 4yo's...getting a lot better and easier to deal with them now, but it was very challenging when they were younger and I think certainly contributed to the decline of the R/M.

Well as sort of expected, it seems like OM is not quite out of the picture. Walked into bedroom last night as W was helping D6 with homework and saw her sending FB messages to his name...wasn't snooping and didn't really see what was being said, but I gave her a bit of a smirk and shake of the head and took off to go work out for awhile. She asked what was wrong and why I felt I had to leave the house so quickly and I said I just wanted to work out (mostly true, but also wanted to step away from the moment).

It was sort of interesting to observe that she seemed to be in a bit of a good mood when she got back from her first IC session. We didn't talk about it much but she said the C seemed nice and good. Yet when I returned from working out I was going a bit dark/dim with her and she projected that I was huffy and mad (I felt I was much more neutral, but who knows). I gave her space and left her alone for the evening and she was much more upset for the rest of the night, talked a bit about just wanting to be happy and how life was so hard, I validated and really didn't say much in return other then we all had to make our own choices and live with the costs as well. Diffused the R talk, and inevitable retelling of the history of why I was so wrong and how much I hurt her and how I caused everything wrong, by going out to get us dinner. Not trying to read too much into things, but I wonder if she felt guilty or upset about being caught again chatting with OM.

Felt I handled things fairly well, didn't get sucked into an angry talk with her, let her frustrations just bounce off me, stayed fairly neutral and tried to just enjoy my evening, wasn't cold or mean to her, but didn't pursue or push either. I wonder if some of her frustrations are that I seem much more calm and neutral with all these Sitch's while she is still so conflicted and emotional. I know I am not fully detached because although I did not count on the R with OM really being over, a small part of me had hoped and I was hurt and disappointed realizing that was not true, and she might have seen some of that by me leaving so quick to work out, but I did not make an issue of it, or even talk about it at all.

All of that is beside the point however. I will keep working on myself and my R with kids. I might meet up with my Bro and Sis tonight for drinks or dinner, maybe do a hike with my Dad this weekend, had a good few days of work, got a good workout in last night...so I am feeling pretty good about myself.

My angry/vindictive fantasy last night driving home was that I should order a bunch of the children's divorce books and have them shipped to the house in her name...but I quickly realized that would be so mean and hurtful and would cut very deep...so I won't be doing that. I may however buy them myself and bring them home to have for if we get to that point.

So the journey/experience continues...I feel I am watching the roller coaster more then riding it with W anymore, and getting better prepared, and more at peace, for either way my life and M may go in the future. I still pray, wish and hope for it to be with my W because I believe we could truly have a fantastic M and long life together coming out of this...but I know it is not my belief that matters at this point.

[Ichrus]

Feeling down and having a hard time being detached or staying off the roller coaster today.

Had a really good 2nd IC session last Fri. He knows of MWD and thought my approach and trying to work on myself was really good. I get a sense he is more interested in helping me prepare for potential separation/D, but he had good points about my efforts and observations of my W and her reactions (thought the "confusion" stuff I mentioned before were good signs, but also said it sounds like she is really fighting and crying out for independence...and I agree). So I felt really good, detached, happy to be working on myself, more prepared for whatever roads might be ahead.

Then Sat. my W talks about how she might be able to start working full time now and is considering it, and she has been looking at divorce papers online and talking to an old High School friend of both of ours (who is going through D himself) and wants my opinion on how we should move forward. I have to say it really shook me and and set me back...I think I handled it ok, saying I was not really ready to look at that stuff, but if she wanted to put together her plan, I would go over it with her and get back to her with my thoughts. I guess I was mini bombed because the "working plan" has been we stick it out till summer when a move will have less impact on our kids and my W will start working full time come Aug, and this just felt like she was in a hurry to get things done and going now. She made it more clear the next day that she was not looking to file or anything right away, just looking at the options and learning what needs to be done. I don't know if my response was good or bad, but I did say that when she chooses to file for D, I would expect she would consider moving out then as well because why would she want to live in the same house when she takes that next big step. She has a viable option to live with her mom like 5 mins from our house in the short term, and even talked about getting a place early and paying on CC for a few months (won't be my CC's). I just don't know, are there any general thoughts on living together in the same house after D papers are filed?. My initial response was a bit knee jerk, and I might soften on it, but I just don't know yet.

I retold her that I don't want this and think it is the wrong decision, but I know she needs to make her own choices and do what she needs to do, I will not stand in her way or throw up roadblocks for nothing, but I also would not be actively helping her with this process. She seemed frustrated but somewhat understanding, her main point/complaint is that I handled all the financial stuff and she is worried she will mess something up with that. I have already given her a cheat sheet with all our info, accounts, how to access them, what they are for, etc. and told her to use that and do her best and I would look over anything she puts together. Also gave her the start of a simple budget with key areas filled in and info on some of the other monthly costs she will need to consider on her own and I think the reality of being on her own, cost of rent, food, her half of the CC bills, etc. is starting to hit her a bit too. I don't think this is really controlling of me (one of my fix-it items) because she does need to know and learn this info, and I want her to be able to take care of this on her own when she is on her own (because it will effect my kids as well). I am trying to get her access, all the info and the very basics of where she can start to learn and think about this stuff on her own and letting her go at it on her own.

I am fairly confident that my W is set on her course and we will be separated or D within the next 6 months. I believe she really does feel that she needs to get out on her own and have some independence, make more choices for herself, live her own life a bit and try to find or create her own happiness (perhaps with OM). I see and hear her gathering her support from friends and family (which is good for her in a way, but I also think it makes it near impossible for her to back off from her course, even if she wanted to for some reason, because the expectation is now out there). I know I need to keep working on myself for myself, I need to really just prepare for life down this road and becoming more of the person I want to be. GAL and detaching continue, but are hard. I know anything can happen over time and one of the rules is to never really give up, but right now it seems the only hope for us building a new R/M will be after she has a chance to leave and find herself a bit more.

Came home last night from a day and half long business trip, W had kids for two days on her own. Got to hug my girls and help put them to bed. W was so closed off and cold...I mean I wasn't expecting a warm welcome or anything, but she couldn't even look at me for some reason, gave a few short, curt replies and basically stayed away from me all night...I gave her space, just asked her once if she was ok and left her alone the rest of the night. Trying not to read too much into it, but it does make me wonder what is going on because this is something different. Though there has been a lot of tension and stress between us, we have been able to talk and just have normal conversations about the kids or house stuff or family news...this hard core shut down worries me for some reason. I will have to see how tonight goes and play it by ear...not looking to push any issues, but feel like I am getting dragged back on to the roller-coaster a bit (must stay off this ride...especially when it is going downhill again)

[25yearsmlc]

First off - you can't blame yourself for your W indiscretions. The encouraging stuff with flirting and texting is strange, but at the end of the day, she made those choices alone.


no she didn't. HE encouraged and created it.

Secondly - counselors are important if you want to save the marriage. If you didn't like the first one, go to a different one. If you don't like them either, find a new one. Don't stop trying to find the right one.

Onto your DB Qs... I don't know much about the GAL in your situation... maybe try GAL with activities that she'd enjoy too. Get a bbsitter, take a salsa class. Whatever.


GAL is for YOU ALONE, not for her. Those together activities mentioned might be great 180s to spend more time with her and give her love in HER Love language. BUT GAL is about YOU moving forward growing as a person

being less predictable and building a life for yourself so you bring more to the table and so you obsess less and grow more.


The OM - if you're NOT okay with her having an affair, I'd say push for NC. If she's serious about saving the marriage, she can't have a backup.


if you issue an ultimatum (which plays right into her image of you being too controlling), chances are she won't choose you.

AND btw It's NOT a DB thing to do--except in the rarest of circumstances, so read up on that before you take a chance on not being her choice.

Be the better choice and stop thinking about OM. He's a symptom of a marriage in which your wife felt neglected and hurt and lonely.

Deal with that, and try very hard to detach from him.

He's not worth your time or energy - especially when you can spend that energy on becoming a man only a fool would leave.


They work together, right? Are you going to ask her to quit her job? If not. Ask for NC and transparency. If she must have contact with him for work purposes, have her share them with you so you know its over. phone too! She needs to be transparent with that too. If she's going out with friends, you need to know where and who with and how to reach her. It's inconvenient, but that is what happens when you break trust.


I don't think she's anywhere near ready for this^^^ and again it plays into the controlling aspects she dislikes in you that YOU agree must change.

(Also, though she will need to regain your trust, that goes both ways).

And don't get punitive under the guise of "boundary setting" or "teaching her a lesson." Too many LBSers do that and what they are really doing is wanting to punish no matter what they tell themselves.

As my DB coach said, "it's not the spouse's job to show them the consequences of their choices, LIFE does that."

IF the time comes when SHE truly wants the m to work AND if she believes your changes are real and lasting---

then maybe these "conditions" will apply. Unfortunately you are not in a position to make her do anything. She's not sure she wants to be married so...let's get to a place where she is by showing her the new way the marriage could be better.


also, no woman is unmoved by the loving interaction between her children and their father. Be the best dad you can be NOW more than ever. It's a turn on, and it's the right thing to do anyhow.


Phone therapy - no prep work needed. Make the call and set up the appointment.

Marriage is a PARTNERSHIP. I know you've both made mistakes but there is still hope if you BOTH are willing to put in the hard work to put the pieces back together.

til she believes marriage to you can be better/different, she won't want to return.

So How are YOU showing her that it can be better and new?

[Ichrus]

Thank you for your reply 25, I have enjoyed reading your posts on the other threads as well.

Your reply was to one of my earlier posts and the response someone else gave, and a lot has happened since then (read my other updates above).

Have been doing some 180's and GAL for myself (working out more training for a mud run, much more patient/caring/and having fun times with our children, going out with my family and friends more socially).

I continue to work on myself, detach and be the best man I can be...I know that is all I can control and do right now. She has said many times she does not see any future for us and she feels she really needs to move on (I know from the rules not to believe anything said and only 50% of what I see). Her actions also are all toward moving on right now (OM still in picture, but I am not as focused on him, she is solidifying her support group of female friends/family for her upcoming separation, she is shopping for apartments and divorce info). I know anything can happen and change over time...but knowing my wife and seeing the whole picture, I just have a sense that she is going to need to at least move out on her own for awhile to sample some of the independence that she seems to want/need. I don't see that, or even D, as being the end of our story necessarily, she even at one point mentioned "who knows, maybe we will even get back together in the future", but I also know, and am preparing, to be able to move on and live my life on my own as well as I can. I am not giving up on us yet...but also am not waiting desperately for her to come to her senses or anything like that...as you said, life will show her the costs of her choices (as it is showing me the cost of mine).

"til she believes marriage to you can be better/different, she won't want to return.

So How are YOU showing her that it can be better and new?"
1)Being a much more engaged, loving, patient, appreciative father to our children
2)When she wants to talk, giving her my full attention and time, looking in her eyes, repeating back and clarifying points, offering encouragement and sometimes just listening and letting her vent without offering ideas of how to "fix-it"
3)GAL activities like connecting more with my family and some close friends on a social level outside of our R. Also working out more and training for a mud run we both signed up to do in June (will be interesting to see if we do it together or separately...but I will be doing it regardless)
4)Giving her space and time (not snooping or "checking in" on her, don't ask her questions about where she is going or anything like that), not getting into arguments over our M or R. No real mention of OM (some small backslides, but not too much), trying to keep things as light and non threatening at home as I can.

Part of the problem is her love language is quality time and maybe 2nd affection/physical touch. Right now she does not want me to provide any of that toward her.

I know she will not come back til she believes things can be different and better...she does not believe that yet, and continues to make it clear in her words and actions. She does not want to work on the M, she said/feels she is done with it and needs this step for herself.

I know OM is symptom and not cause of our problems...but she also said before that she could not "give him up because she finally found someone who really loves and cares about her and treats her as she needs to be treated, and she is afraid to loose him". I also know she will have to work out on her own and make her own choices as to her continued relationship with him...and while he is in the picture, there is no chance she will even consider building any kind of new R with me.

So I wait to see how things go. I continue to GAL and I guess prepare myself for any road that might come to me. As to DB efforts, I guess I am dim to dark at this point...can't fully disengage because we still live together and have to co-parent, but after kids are in bed we kind of do our own things. We will sometimes eat or watch tv together, but she has a hard time right now even being around me for some reason (almost panic attacks, has pressure/trouble breathing) from us just sitting together alone (I am not saying or doing anything, it almost seems like she just works herself up over some expected fight or talk based on our previous fights...even when I have said and shown her that I am not going to talk or attack her over any R/M stuff anymore, and she acknowledged that).

I hate the thought of it, but I almost feel she also needs to at least move out, make her own choices, and gain a different perspective on everything, while having life teach her about the costs of her decisions. Right now she is set on her course, and I am not standing in her way, and I will not be helping her along with this...but we both agree and are going to try to do the best we can to protect the kids through this mess.

[Ichrus]

Updating and journaling a bit.

W is set on her course/decision that she needs a D and needs to get out to live her own life. At first I was going to take the track of "you do what you need, file what you need and I will respond", but after speaking with an old friend who is finishing up his law degree and has been divorced twice, I believe the better course for me (and my kids) will be trying to work on an agreement together prior to getting lawyers involved. The reasons for me are several: It would be a bit of a 180 for me to show her; going the lawyer path for each of us will cost much more money and will certainly create much more bad blood through the process; my primary goal right now is doing everything I can to make myself better-which includes providing for, protecting and getting my three beautiful daughters through this as best as I can. I am being fair and open in the process and hope if we continue on this path, we can reach agreements on most everything so we both are at least satisfied and can move on more quickly.

Now don't get me wrong, I am not going out and learning everything and leading the charge here...I am learning everything I can about it (to protect myself and D's), but am making W take the lead on where she wants to go with discussions, and making her learn what she needs to know on her own (I am not going to provide all the answers or lead her thru how I have understood the process to work). She says she has felt I had too much control over our money and maybe some of the more complex life issues like insurance, mortgage refinancing, etc, and she wants more independence to live her life...well life is going to give her that lesson as we go thru this. I feel I am detached and not really vindictive about this, I help as I can, answer questions honestly and have given her all the info on our personal finances (and taught her about what they mean), I am just not taking the lead on pushing the process forward.

Sitch is hitting W much harder lately. She is run down, doesn't sleep well, much more forgetful, stressed about work, stressed about being home, stressed about the kids, feeling sick often. I believe the reality of everything is hitting her more now...unfortunately she still blames me for basically everything in the past that got us here and blames me for how she feels and her unhappiness now. She has said (and likely feels) that when she leaves and is able to find/work on her happiness (which is partly code for exploring relationship with OM), that she thinks she will be able to deal with a lot of the other stressful/hard things in her life much better.

Thru these boards and my personal introspection and journey, I know that we each have to create our own happiness, and other people can be a part of that, but they are not the main reason for it (and the opposite is true as well, other people are not the primary reason for our own unhappiness). I know I (or really anyone) will not be able to convince W of this through talking...which is partly why I sort of agree that she needs to get out on her own and have life teach her some of these lessons. I don't like it, I hope something happens that maybe gets her to consider staying and trying to work on a new M with me, but I am more prepared for her having to leave to experience some of these big life lessons herself (and trying to keep the road paved home as smooth as possible just in case). I feel more at peace for living a happy life with or without my W going forward, and know if she wants to come back it will not be me throwing myself at her feet and thanking her...there will be some tough decisions for both of us if we decide to try anew.

Continuing to be detached overall, somewhat dim/dark LRT going on (not cold or mean, just separate, but upbeat when interacting), GAL goes on with workouts and friendships/life outside of house. Doing all I can to be the best father I can be and enjoying time with my girls (especially while things are still "normal" for them).

Not sure if this falls under DB'ing, but I plan on personally going to each of our married siblings (3 of hers and 2 of mine, and I am good friends with her family) and giving them a copy of the 5 love languages book. I plan on briefly and sincerely apologizing (to her sibs) for the role I played (not taking full responsibility, but owning up to my part) in hurting their sister and getting our families to this point (and for what may come). But I plan on focusing more on encouraging them to read the 5LL book and use our Sitch as a wake-up call to look at the good in their own relationships and to work on making them stronger now. I wish someone would have given me the 5LL book about 7-8 years ago and really encouraged me to read it, look at, and work on my own marriage, so I hope to pass some of that wisdom/opportunity on to the people I love. Told W my plans in general and said she could come along or add a letter if she likes (didn't want it to be a surprise or seem like I was trying to win them over or anything...which I am not, and I plan to speak carefully, and generally, to focus more on my desire for them to grow from our bad sitch).

Backslid a bit today...noticed W has removed her relationship status from FB, which then changed mine from "married to <W>" to just "Married". Sent her a text saying "So you removed you FB relation status huh, nice. Now it just shows me as married. Should I even update it to show your name again?" followed by "I would just appreciate some curtsey from you as you take more of these types of steps as they can affect me as well". I should not have sent that, and waited a bit to think about it and cool down...but it hit a nerve for some reason (realizing I am not fully detached). Although my message was much more tame then the angry/vindictive one I fantasied about saying "why don't you just change yours to "in a relationship with OM" while I will go to "it's complicated"

Life goes on...

[Ichrus]

Well tonight is the first night I am home alone with my daughters and W has actually become a WAW. She has been so stressed and worn out and seemingly crazy lately. This is not unexpected, and she has said she would be doing this soon most likely, but it is different when they actually walk out the door.

So W is at her mom's house tonight to get away from me, our home and our M. Not sure entirely how I am feeling about it all...not good certainly, but not all broken down and depressed either. I am sad, hurt, a bit lonely...but I can also see how she does need to get away to get some perspective on her life (and maybe have life teach her some of her own lessons). She plans on coming home early tomorrow to get ready for work and help get the kids ready for school...I am curious to see how this goes and if this becomes a regular thing for her, or if she decides the atmosphere at home is not as bad as living with her parents and sisters again (I think I am fine either way, just curious to see how it goes).

She did try to make the case and point last night that she deserves 50% of the time with the kids and so I should move out of the house for her time...had to dawn a line and fight back against that to make it clear I was not moving out of our house or our bed because she felt so uncomfortable around me...she tries to blame it on me and calls me controlling, but I just tried to validate her feelings while also saying she gets to make her own choices on staying or going...but so do I, and I choose to stay in our house and our bed.

So off to bed alone for the first time because W decided she had to leave...i know it will not be the last time, and I know I will be ok down the road, just suc*s a bit now.

[Ichrus]

Slept ok last night, work up a few times with mind just going and my elbow joints were tense and sore this morning (maybe stressed in the night somehow), but got some shuteye. Dragging a bit today, and the time change did not help.

Wife came home this morning early to get ready, first thing she said was she was exhausted. I think i responded with a simple affirmative "hmm", she followed with something like "I will probably pass out driving to work today", I decided to really not respond and we both just went about getting kids and selves ready for the day. I maybe should have tried to be validating and upbeat, but just felt she was baiting the trap and wanted to get into it and I was not going for it. At one point she walked by and said "Don't think I am going to make this easy for you"...so I expect we will have an interesting night/talk later.

I am a little worried and upset about this all, but also think I have a decent "shield" of detachment as well (which I will likely need tonight). My position is that I am not (and have not) demanded or even really asked that she do anything (move out, sleep on the couch, etc.), she is the one choosing to leave our M and her being uncomfortable being around me is her problem, not mine. I don't plan on leaving our bed or our house on any regular basis because she doesn't like being around me (But will spend some evenings or days away to give her space and time, just not going to be sleeping on the couch or at my brothers on some regular schedule). Her position is that I am being stubborn and "bull-headed", that because I make more money and will likely be the one to keep the house for our girls sake, I am saying it has to be some certain way (basically that I am not giving in to her wish/demand that I move out and sleep elsewhere certain days of the week).

So tonight should be interesting. Have a D end of basketball event tonight, then just normal time with the girls, after they start heading to bed I hope to hit the gym to give us both some more space and time...then we will see. I certainly will need to slip into the flame proof suit before getting home, detachment helmet on as well, and anger/snarky response filter in place on the mouth. I am starting to get a bit worried about her emotional state and what she might do (not harming herself or the kids wise), but beginning to have visions of her locking or barricading the bedroom door at night to get her way or something. Will just have to see what happens and play it by ear, but I am already running thru a few visions of things she might do and the most appropriate way to respond.

Wish me luck!

[Crimson]

Hey there, Ichrus. Responding to your post on my thread. To be honest with you, life actually got a little BETTER for me once my W left. Don't get me wrong, it hurt like hell and I still miss her being there - but the awkwardness and overall lack of oxygen in the house was cured.

Also, and believe me when I say this made a difference for me, you HAVE to stay positive, upbeat and as happy as you can be around your W. Is it a TOTAL act at times? Yep. It was for me - but over time it actually became kind of real. Re-read the "Act as if" portion of DR again - it helped me a lot. I think once my wife thought I was "OK" and "moving on" it really made a difference in my situation. Pulling back helped a lot, too - ergo, moving out isn't ALL bad for your situation.

Keep posting, and good luck.

Crimson