If you truly dislike spending time with your H, what can he do to make things better? If you want him to study up on gardening, does he know that or are you expecting him to mind read?
Is there *anything* he could do at this point to start to bridge the gap, or are you just too far gone?
One thing I liked about SSM was the notion of cycles. If the LD partner doesn't engage in sex, the HD partner withdraws and won't invest time, if the HD partner withdraws, the LD partner is less likely to provide sex, and down the drain you go.
I observe this dynamic with my parents. My mother tends to ignore my father. He makes nasty sniping comments to get her attention, which makes her feel badly, so she avoids him even more, and that's their cycle. He feels "you're wrong, you ignore me" and she feels "you're wrong, you insult me". The tragic thing is that they both *want* to have their needs met, but they're locked in this cycle that pushes them apart.
I'm sure that you know that the way you're treating H is reinforcing whatever negative behavior he's guilty of. I hear you that you've tried bending over backwards to be positive and H didn't respond. That's contrary to what DB suggests should happen. There are four possible explanations for that IMO:
1) You didn't do it consistently enough, or with enough sincerity. (i.e. although you were being nice, were you salting in barbs about the fact tht H wasn't reciprocating?, were you sabotaging your efforts?) In DB when the LBS is trying to restore the relationship, the 180's must be credible. If you salt in back sliding at all, the WAS believes nothing has really changed and all the effort is for nothing.
2) You didn't do it long enough. My MC says that the patterns we learn in marriage about how to treat each other and what treatment to expect take a LONG time to change. It's "retraining" as we previously talked about. If you were nice for a month, and then moved into the other bedroom, that might not have been long enough, you may have to pull it off for six months or longer to make it credible.
3) Your H is evil. It's possible that despite the fact that you are nice to him and he believes in your good intentions and good will, that he's still going to be mean/rude/inappropriate no matter what you do. This is fairly hard to believe, because if he was truly evil, would a woman as intelligent as yourself have married him? Otherwise he's a bully, and you can't get a bully in line by being nice, you have to stand up to him. If he's bullying you, that means he doesn't respect you, and that doesn't seem to be the case, or is it?
Accuray
Married 18, Together 20, Now Divorced M: 48, W: 50, D: 18, S: 16, D: 12 Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 7/13/11 Start Reconcile: 8/15/11 Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 5/1/2014 (Divorced) In a New Relationship: 3/2015
Remember, CV, I don't WANT him to garden with me. That was just one of a number of reasons why. So I don't WANT him to learn about it. If he did, it would make it easier because we could at least talk about it, but still not something I would prefer.
Quote:
Is there *anything* he could do at this point to start to bridge the gap, or are you just too far gone?
I think the example I gave about the way my friends and I interact vs. the way he interacts with me (it's just all about him.) So if he could adjust that, that would be a start. Seems pretty simple to me, impossible for him.
I did it for 6 years. I did it genuinely. I don't believe he's evil, I just believe he's selfish, in a Narcissistic Personality Disorder sort of way. I'm not sure he even has the capacity to think outside of himself. He certainly is not driven by any sense of reciprocity, as DB suggests.
We had a brief discussion last night about going out to dinner, and I presented the suggestion noted previously. When I told him that I would like to enjoy having dinner with him, but that I would leave if he continued to do x,y, and z, he acknowledged and said fine. Then he suggested that I remind him of x,y,and z and my leaving every time before we go to dinner. So I told him it wasn't intended for me to have to remind him EVERY time, but that I would be willing to do it for him every time before eating out, if he would agree to extending the same courtesy to me every time before we had sex.
He thought it was utterly ridiculous that I would expect him to remind me about his preferences regarding sex, but perfectly reasonable for me to have to remind him of my preferences regarding eating out (I don't like him to help himself to food off of my plate, for example.) I get why he thinks it's ridiculous - it is - but it's ridiculous both ways. He doesn't think so.
He definitely shouldn't help himself to food off your plate. That's not appropriate, I'm with you on that.
Narcissism is tough. My MiL is a narcissist and it did a job on her daughters including my W. It's very, very hard to live with. It ended up leading to her divorce. She went through a series of relationships but really wasn't happy until she finally married a guy who's real "old school" and doesn't take any crap. He's the king in his castle as it were.
She seems to take some comfort in this, but it still leads to crazy tension because the universe does rotate around my MiL.
Have you studied up at all on Narcissistic personality disorders and how to deal with them? Maybe that would help, or find a therapist who specializes in it and go yourself to better understand how to deal.
As you suggest, he may simply be incapable of changing on his own, but you may find a path to forcing a healthier interaction through research.
The narcissism thing was a big lightbulb going off for me Crazyville, I've seen how that works first hand and it is tough.
My relationship with MiL is funny -- she used to do things like just walk into our house without knocking. I told her that had to end or she wouldn't be invited back and now she's scared of me. It drives her crazy that virtually everyone caters to her except her husband and I.
She likes to break my W down almost to tears and then build her back up again. It's infuriating to be around.
Accuray
Married 18, Together 20, Now Divorced M: 48, W: 50, D: 18, S: 16, D: 12 Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 7/13/11 Start Reconcile: 8/15/11 Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 5/1/2014 (Divorced) In a New Relationship: 3/2015
I have spent a fair amount of time researching narcissism. He has many of the characteristics but hasn't been formally diagnosed. The aspect that really pegs my H is that they can be very charming and personable, but unless it's about them, or if they can't get any more from you, then they just don't have a need for you. It's what I was illustrating when I referred to him as a "used car salesman." It's much more than that, though.
Since I'm not a psychologist, I don't feel completely confident settling on that diagnosis, so I keep driving myself crazy looking for solutions, like DB. The problem is that it simply doesn't work on them. If I give my H 100% of what he wants, he'll just want 110%. There is no reciprocity with him.
I'll have to look a bit more on how to deal with them. The most recent one basically said "this is what you get, you're not going to change them, so deal or move on."
Thanks for the link. I've just ordered the book. It looks like it has a number of topics that cover whichever direction I end up going. (I tell ya, what crazy pricing on a paperback book! For a minute, I thought I was ordering a textbook for school. I hope it's good!)
It's out of print -- if you hunt around off of Amazon you can find it for less. I think I paid less than $20. There is a related book called "The Passion Trap" I just started reading which is supposed to be along the same lines and has a Kindle version.
The "Pursuit and Distance Dance" is an interesting concept, that's definitely been going on in my sitch. I confirmed in MC last night that W wants more distance in our M than I do -- more than twice as much! So that explains a lot -- time for me to retreat.
Accuray
Married 18, Together 20, Now Divorced M: 48, W: 50, D: 18, S: 16, D: 12 Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 7/13/11 Start Reconcile: 8/15/11 Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 5/1/2014 (Divorced) In a New Relationship: 3/2015
Still waiting for the Sole Partner book. In the meantime, I thought I'd throw out the recent WAS (me) sitch. I'm not sure what I need, but your thoughts are always appreciated.
Saturday, I thought I had the day to myself as H was supposed to go with S11 on a boy scout trip. I slept late, lounged in bed, had plans to visit my gma. As I finally got up, H surprised me and walks into the room and tells me he wanted to spend time together and talk. There was a time in our R that I would have really been excited. But instead, my private response was, "CR@P!!!"
He seems so clueless on life and relationship. It seems like I have to explain the most basic aspects of relational interaction. Even when he's "trying," our interactions are so awkward and artificial. At one point, he told me that he would find it easier to like me if I liked him more first. I asked if that attitude jibed with his Christian beliefs. He said it did. So I referenced "love your enemies" and "do unto others as you'd have them do unto you", and that as a husband, he's supposed to love me as Christ loved the church, but as his wife I'm to obey him (not love.) These are pretty well-known verses, and he was familiar with them. After I pointed them out to him, then he agreed that his attitude was wrong. But for a man that is very active in the church, is this really something I should have to explain to him?
He was also told years ago by a counselor that he needed to "mine my heart," to study me and get to know me. A recent book I was reading said a very similar thing. This has always been an issue for us because he just wants a bullet-point list that he can follow (which, ironically, he doesn't do anyway.) He doesn't want to invest any personal energy in me. I tried to relate it to him that it's like buying someone a surprise b-day present -- you have to watch and listen and learn. So last night, I'm sitting watching tv and playing Words, and he sits down on the other sofa. After about 15 minutes, he tells me he's studying me. What do I say to that? He should have been able to glean everything there was to know about my present activities in the first 15 seconds. And is it really appropriate to announce it? With him, I always feel like I'm dealing with a child that accomplishes a tiny feat then I have to offer them glowing accolades. Except that's appropriate for a child, not a 57yo man. Maybe I am supposed to, but frankly, I don't have the energy or even the desire.
I also did a check-in on the "criticism" issue. He has not once pointed out where I've criticized him, and he confirmed that he couldn't think of any time in the last week that I had. I'm willing to bet anyone here that next week's check will have the same results, and the week after that and the week after that. I don't believe this because I have the capacity to change instantly, but rather that he simply likes to assign blame even if it's fabricated. Of course, my just having a different opinion than him is criticism to him, so I haven't been sharing my opinion.
I've spent so many years thinking about my future without him that I'm not sure I have it in me to re-engage. Even if he did a 180 on everything and I could fully forgive his past, I just don't know that I even want to try to rebuild.
I've spent so many years thinking about my future without him that I'm not sure I have it in me to re-engage. Even if he did a 180 on everything and I could fully forgive his past, I just don't know that I even want to try to rebuild.
Just an observation here - why are you in the same house still? Seems like you have made your mind up?
Me: 44 Bomb: 11/27/11 Divorced:6/12 Life goes on: 6/13
I also did a check-in on the "criticism" issue. He has not once pointed out where I've criticized him, ...
When we come here to talk about the things that our spouses do that piss us off... it's called "venting"...
another term for that is... "criticism"...
While he may not be able to you specific words... it is very likely that the criticism and judgement of your H as in your "venting" post above is coming out loud and clear to your H...
And the problem is... your words aren't matching your actions so he's confused...
Find words and use those words to be honest about how you feel, or your H will continue to get mixed signals....
