My story, need help before I mess everything up.

[MrBond]

The straight up response to your post above is that it's shown you haven't learned much. Just being honest.

I don't think you realize how much you are trying to control your W and tell her how she should be feeling. It's your lack of being able to control her that's making you feel crazy. Here are the examples:

"main sticking point that I feel is stopping us making progress is about the morning in mid December where I gave her the ultimatum of me or Nick."
"however she said it was nothing to do with the ultimatum."

So she says that it has nothing to do with the ultimatum. Why do you keep insisting your POV is right?

"I demanded her phone of her so I could check for more text,"
"she said "what gives you the right to demand my phone off me or demand anything for that matter?" I replied with there were extenuating circumstances and I've never demanded anything off her before and in a marriage in very rare circumstances it is alright to demand something"

No it's never alright to demand something from another person. That shows insecurity. I think if you would have started building back the trust between you, you could just ask and she would've given you her phone freely. total buzzkill.

"I've said to her previously that I was sorry for shouting at her and I was sorry for making her feel scared and if I could go back I would of handled the situation differently but I was so messed up then in the head I really didn't know what I was doing half the time."

You're still acting like that sorry to say.

"how do I get through this when there is no recognition of the good times, empathy towards me, good will on her part and no attempt at any kind of forgiveness?"

Again you are making it all about you and when do you get something back.

Let's face it, your W left because she felt that she was not having her needs met. So right now you're going to have to deal with that first. Deal with meeting her needs even if it means shutting up for a little bit and listening AND accepting that this is where she is right now. In order for your sitch to change, someone has to change first.

"I apologised before but I can't see (and I really have tried to see) why shes still angry 2 months later"

See? Again, YOU can't see, etc. You're not her. She's still angry for whatever reason. Could be because of you, could be because of her shame, etc. But bottom line is that you don't know.

Try starting off with a fresh mindset. As if she was someone whom you met for the first time. Would you have expectations of how they act? Would you be analyzing every move they make or would you just accept them for the way they are currently? That's the way you've got to start off in order for her to feel safe. She really feels like she's being judged by you. You can argue to the contrary, but it leaks out in your posts. That's where the control issue comes in.

[Denton]

The straight up response to your post above is that it's shown you haven't learned much. Just being honest.

I have learnt, I'm just struggling to put it into practice, I was better this week in terms of anger management.

I don't think you realize how much you are trying to control your W and tell her how she should be feeling. It's your lack of being able to control her that's making you feel crazy. Here are the examples:

"main sticking point that I feel is stopping us making progress is about the morning in mid December where I gave her the ultimatum of me or Nick."
"however she said it was nothing to do with the ultimatum."

So she says that it has nothing to do with the ultimatum. Why do you keep insisting your POV is right?

She said it was one of the major things that I've done to upset her and she keeps bringing it up more than anything else. Last night was the first time she said it wasn't about the ultimatum but how I scared her and spoke to her like crap and demanded the phone off her.

"I demanded her phone of her so I could check for more text,"
"she said "what gives you the right to demand my phone off me or demand anything for that matter?" I replied with there were extenuating circumstances and I've never demanded anything off her before and in a marriage in very rare circumstances it is alright to demand something"

No it's never alright to demand something from another person. That shows insecurity. I think if you would have started building back the trust between you, you could just ask and she would've given you her phone freely. total buzzkill.

I did ask first of all but she said no. And yes I was completely insecure then but I think anybody would be if they had just found out their W had an affair, doesn't mean to say it's right.

I was so messed up then in the head I really didn't know what I was doing half the time."

You're still acting like that sorry to say.

Agreed, I'm a lot better as everyday goes by and I keep working on detaching.

"how do I get through this when there is no recognition of the good times, empathy towards me, good will on her part and no attempt at any kind of forgiveness?"

Again you are making it all about you and when do you get something back.

Yeah. I see you are right, I guess I want the above to make it easier. It is different than my other post when I wanted my needs met but I can see again it's about me.

Deal with meeting her needs even if it means shutting up for a little bit and listening AND accepting that this is where she is right now. In order for your sitch to change, someone has to change first.

I'm trying to meet her needs and have changed SO much I just am a little frustrated with myself as I feel last night was a bit of a set back and we had been making reasonable progress throughout the week.

"I apologised before but I can't see (and I really have tried to see) why shes still angry 2 months later"

See? Again, YOU can't see, etc. You're not her. She's still angry for whatever reason. Could be because of you, could be because of her shame, etc. But bottom line is that you don't know.

This is one of those situations isn't it where the best chance of fixing it is to stop trying to fix it.

Try starting off with a fresh mindset. As if she was someone whom you met for the first time. Would you have expectations of how they act? Would you be analyzing every move they make or would you just accept them for the way they are currently? That's the way you've got to start off in order for her to feel safe. She really feels like she's being judged by you. You can argue to the contrary, but it leaks out in your posts. That's where the control issue comes in.

Genius advice! I see that now, she does think I'm judging her all the time, looking for faults etc, not so much now but in the past. She keeps accusing me of looking at the living room when I walk in now and shaking my head as though I am upset it's a mess. But I can't see it as she accused me again yesterday but I was very concious of it and kept my head very straight and I know I didn't shake my head. One of us is going slightly mad and I've got no idea if it's me, her or probably both of us.

[25yearsmlc]

take Bond's advice and back off and stop trying to control.

It comes off as being critical and a bit obsessive. And it is what's driving you nuts.

Back off and learn to detach. That does not mean stop caring but stop hanging your life on hers..

here is a piece on Detachment that may help you---it's not mine but I found it around here somewhere.


"This was originally posted by Peanut.
============
II. Detachment
Detachment is critical to the process of altering and repairing a relationship.

Attached, we take personally all that is said, not said, done and not done. Our ego gets wounded and we say or do things that undermine accomplishing our goals.

We can NOT control the actions of another. We are, however, responsible for our own actions. We are responsible for our own happiness. If we are detached from the actions of another, we can meet anger or indifference with love. Met with love we are in a position to diffuse the situation and transform it in a way that will be in alignment with our goals.

On the flipside, detachment allows us to play it cool when we do get a positive reaction from our spouse. It is a way to break the distance/pursuer cycle.

Detachment is not withdrawal. It is not the mind saying, ‘I am not getting what I want so I must pull back.’ It is the natural acceptance that I am alone responsible for how I act. I cannot control another person, but I can control how I respond to them."

[Denton]

I was also starting to get concerned that I'm getting far too obsessed with this whole sitch, I've had enough self control to stop myself contacting her everyday but I know it comes out when we do speak.

Question for you all, what can I do to help this sitch? We're not in piecing as such as she is not giving it 100% but is trying a bit. In fact she was the one who wanted to change our talks from fortnightly to weekly. I've got the impression she is considerably confused and she has stated that quite a lot as well to me and MC.
So what should I do? In our talks it's quite hard to get her to open up but she's not telling me anything new when she does. I get that I need to detach and be patient but 2 weeks ago she even stated that I was too defensive at MC as we're supposed to be getting it sorted together!

What can I do extra to help the sitch apart from what's already being said?

[TSquared2]

This is something I scraped and pasted from another thread that really helped me see reality and let go of the EA/PA part (I am not saying the whole post applies to you, only you will know for sure, but it is a good smack upside the head that I needed...

"Seriously your evidence of it getting physical is circumstantial at best.

You'll most likely never truly know, and you'll have to just live with that or move on.

As for all this rage that's not what being integrated is about. You are still having one gigantic victim puke. You worked so hard in your mind for this marriage, and she is not meeting her end of the bargain so you are in a rage.

Not being an NG is NOT about turning into a jerk. Ultimatums are still manipulative and completely futile if you can't follow through.

I don't recommend making any moves until you know for sure it's physical. If it's not physical yet, your actions will surely drive her to it.

You keep telling her, break it off or else!!

Let me save you some time, SHE WILL ALWAYS PICK ELSE

She'd drive off a cliff if it was between that and your M.

Your words are empty to her, all she sees is the manipulative person you are. The more you rage the better OM looks. He's prince charming, you're that jerk that pretends to be nice.

Sounds to me like the affair is as good as guaranteed. It's just a matter of time for it to get physical.

Don't you see that in many ways she is having this affair to spite you, to get back at you, and YES TO HURT YOU.

Why do you think she's so careless with letting you know about the EA. She wants you to know, either consciously or subconsciously.

Yes it sounds weak to leave it alone, and let her pursue it, but guess what you are powerless to stop it. You can only accelerate it. Fighting with her about it will only drive her to his arms.

By her latest actions, it's easy to tell she is in full WAW mode. She's ready to run. She WANTS to divorce. She's merely waiting for the right time"....."So what to do GAL, or in NMMNG terms learn how to meet your own needs. You are still clearly hurting, we get that really. You need to be at the point where you are happy with or without her. That's what being integrated is about. Meet your own needs, don't rely on her. Once you reach that you'll have the confidence needed to win her back, or any other woman for that matter.

You are actively competing with OM whether you like it or not. In time he will show his flaws. What are you doing to look good once he does?

This will take time, whether you wait it out is up to you. We will understand if you don't."

I read this about 1000 times at first so it really got in my monkey-mind...I still read it a few times a week to help me keep my SELF....

T^2

[TSquared2]

Another poster to read is sandi2 and her original sitch, IF you want to get a glimpse of what W's side of things might look like....Lord it opened up my eyes and also really helped to bring me to compassion and empathy, and my role in my sitch...

It is also very helpful to keep me from getting in my own way, as I tend to want to fix things ASAP and get on with life.

[pulpwood]

How do I find sandi2's original sitch? I am new. I have tried to do a search but come up empty. I think I could learn alot from reading her point of view.

I too have a WAW of sorts. There is an A. Don't know if it is PA yet or not. W has had plenty of oportunty as she goes out of town with OM on "business". I have confronted once and got the "he is just a good guy and a friend".

I have not mentioned it since and I am proud of that. I have wanted to ohhhh I have wanted to. But...not going to do me any good.

[TSquared2]

here you go:

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...410#Post1116410


VERY enlightening...I read often...saved(s)s me from myself...

[pulpwood]

Thanks T

[TSquared2]

She keeps accusing me of looking at the living room when I walk in now and shaking my head as though I am upset it's a mess. But I can't see it as she accused me again yesterday but I was very concious of it and kept my head very straight and I know I didn't shake my head.

She knows you, your reactions. expectations, etc...both conscious and unconscious...though you try to not give a reaction, our spouses know us too well, and probably KNOW we are trying to NOT react, thus see a reaction, subtle as it is.

I obsessed about my sitch for months...it takes time to truely make progress detaching...I am much better at it now, and my "built-in" conscious and sub-conscious reactions have changed or dissipated. And my W knows them VERY, VERY well...and she has noticed when not in MLC alien mode.

I still get caught up sometimes and re-attached....I try to change my thoughts to something else, imagine a stop sign and turn signal for them...

It gets easier with practice and time...I found then GAL the best way to move detachment along...I have 5 REI free events to attend next month, working out, taking kids places...or just escaping with a good book or going into work and streaming a movie or show.

Also, try to listen to your intuition...(that is hard for me alot of the time, I am very cognitive oriented)...what is it saying? It may be wrong, or you may have too much mind/ego interfering...but listen...it will most likely tell you the truth. Then act "as if" all is going to be okay, or is okay...

Just my .03

T^2