Your sitch sounds very, very familiar to mine. If you want to read mine and the advice I received it's on the SSM forum. In any case, I can share these headlines with you:
Originally Posted By: Dazed
(the EA developed because she wasn't getting what she needed from her M to me).
Maybe -- it's possible that she "slid into" an EA even though your marriage was good and you were doing what you should. When this happens, the WAW will look for *something* to explain why they strayed, and will convince themselves it was a problem. The LBS will also feel "I must have done something to deserve this" and buy into those arguments. I'll just say this -- no marriage is perfect, nor are people in long term marriages. Were your sins any greater than what would reasonably be expected? I point this out because it's an important perspective. If you believe that W had an EA because you did A, B, and C, then you will conclude that if you fix A, B, and C, W will come back and you'll be happy again.
The problem is that if A, B, and C were just excuses, then fixing them won't give you the results you expect and you'll drive yourself crazy wondering why. The bottom line is that you might not be as "at fault" as you might assume. As Chris Rock says "people are only as faithful as their options." Sometimes that's unfortunately true.
WRT your dilemma -- W complained about not enough communication, but DB says to detach and not pursue. I faced the same dilemma, W complained about not enough quality time, but DB said not to pursue her to spend quality time. Here's what to do about that -- let her know you're willing to work on the marriage, and then realize that you may not be able to act on that improvement now. You need to get her back committed to the marriage first, and DB is the plan for that. Once she knows you're willing, you DO NOT need to instantly address all her complaints -- she knows you're willing to do so. Trying to fix them now will diminish the emotional distance she's trying to maintain from you and that will push her farther away. Be patient on that front.
The other thing to do is ask her "what does it look like when we're communicating well? What am I doing or saying and when?" Make her get specific. Not that you have to do those things, but if you assume that means she wants to talk about her feelings, and she just means she wants you to say "hello" when you get home, well then you have a huge mismatch of understanding what that means. Seek to clarify understanding, but don't immediately act to resolve.
Accuray
Married 18, Together 20, Now Divorced M: 48, W: 50, D: 18, S: 16, D: 12 Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 7/13/11 Start Reconcile: 8/15/11 Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 5/1/2014 (Divorced) In a New Relationship: 3/2015
Ah, one other important thing -- many of the people on this board have a spouse who has decided they are DONE at the time of the bomb drop. Your W seems to be a bit more of a fence-sitter. That speaks to believe nothing they say and only 50% of what they do.
You can gauge if your actions are working or not, your situation may not be typical. I recommend working with a telephone coach on this site because you can get much more personal guidance than we can give you.
Accuray
Married 18, Together 20, Now Divorced M: 48, W: 50, D: 18, S: 16, D: 12 Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 7/13/11 Start Reconcile: 8/15/11 Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 5/1/2014 (Divorced) In a New Relationship: 3/2015
Thanks Acc... as for her EA, I don't know if it was real or imagined (by me), since I never confronted her about it... though I have noticed some significant changes on that front from her since she dropped the bomb (less time texting/IM and trying to hide it)... like I said, I'm not sure if the EA was real and is going away/went away because we are communicating more now, or if there was no EA and I took a few observations and took a leap that wasn't there to take, either way it doesn't matter to me. What matters to me is we're communicating and trying to reconnect...
After reading the 5 LL and a few other books/blogs, it's clear to me how I put the M on cruise control... didn't take advantage of her, but wasn't as present in the marriage as I should have been. That's not to excuse the EA (if it exists/existed) or remove fault from her, it was clearly something she did instead of talking to me about the issues she was feeling.
She told me last night that she's been trying for years to make the M better and it hasn't worked and she doesn't have the strength anymore. I told her we've been in a canoe for years and she was sitting in the front paddling as hard as she could on her side of the boat, thinking I was paddling on the other side... but I wasn't paddling (or wasn't paddling as hard as she was) because I didn't realize how hard she was paddling and all she was doing was spinning the canoe around in circles and I was enjoying the scenery... Now I know how hard I need to paddle the boat and am starting to understand how she was paddling all these years. I told her if she didn't have the strength to paddle with me, I can paddle on both sides of the boat slowly for a little while until she has the strength to pick up her paddle again. When she picks up her paddle, I'll be able to better understand her stroke speed and can adjust to match it so the canoe goes where we want it to go...together. She liked the analogy but said she didn't think she would ever be able to pick up the paddle. I told her not to worry about when/if she could pick up the paddle, just know that I've got my paddle in the water and I'll be ready.
M36 W35 S8 S5 M11 T17 ILYB Bomb: 01/25/12 Still living in the same house, sharing the same bed, trying to make it better
What the caterpillar calls the end of the world, the Master calls a butterfly."
Now you have all the tools to read. Let us know how your doing and if you have any questions.
I suggest that you read the entire thread in the resources. You can also pick out some people and read their whole story.
The stages of MLC are a template which can only be laid over an MLCer's experience retrospectively. It's impossible to see the pattern until it has finished being laid or the crisis is complete.(nickel Cyrena). So do not be too concerned where your MLC'er is in this process. (Although my general guess is that they are in REPLAY)
Depression is the key to the whole thing and it is always present!
Believe none of what she says and 50% of what she does.
I would not ask her anything unless you can have no expectations. Sometimes asking them questions will be thought of as pressure. You do not want to do anything that can be thought of by your W as controlling or pressure.
Lets not worry about her. Lets work on you! Start your homework assignments. GAL. Eat, sleep and take a deep breath. In general take care of your self first. Detach the single most important thing to DO. Use the time that your W has given you as a gift to start to work on yourself.
Nice work Dazed, everyone appreciates a good analogy. I'm a huge fan of the 5 LL's. When W feels she is done, you have to be very careful of pursuit and distance.
I'm sure you would love to make everything better "now" or maybe tomorrow would be ok. You would like W to give you a checklist of what you need to do, you'll work like h*ll to get those items checked off, and then you'll be good again. That's a natural way to feel -- it's broken, I'm motivated to fix it, let's go!
The problem is that how your W is feeling developed over a long period of time. She has trained herself how to think about you and the marriage, and you have also trained her what to expect from you. That training actually creates neural pathways in the brain that get used again and again. Therefore, you're now on a path of re-training versus "fixing". You need to create new neural pathways and reinforce that they are the preferred routes over the old pathways.
What does training require? First, consistency -- the new behavior has to be demonstrated and repeated over and over again. Second, patience -- retraining takes time. It's not a "push the lever and get a pellet" type scenario. It's push the lever every day for the next six months and maybe you'll get a pellet 3 months after that.
Right now, what W needs is space. She doesn't need you to rush in and address all this immediately. You need to tell her one that (a) you own the problems you brought to the marriage and understand why she feels the way she feels, (b) you're willing to work on your own issues for your own benefit, not just for hers, and (c) if she did have an EA, you understand how that happens and you're willing to forgive. Once you've made those points clearly, you do yourself a disservice by repeating them. Try to do it "one and done".
Then, give her space. Don't pursue, don't escalate. If she reaches out to you, mirror what she does. If she hugs you, hug her back but don't kiss her. If she says she's happy don't answer back with "I love you". Do not escalate, do not ask leading questions. For now, let her be and focus on your own improvements, and do not point them out to her. Let her notice or not.
Finally, at the point you get suspicious of an EA, there is probably one going on. I don't think I've read one case here yet where a suspicion was unfounded, though I have read several cases where the LBS was *convinced* nothing was going on but eventually discovered some level of infidelity.
That said, EA is a spectrum, and your W may be only barely over the line. I can tell you in my W's EA, she was 100% committed to and in love with OM, and I was the villain in the way of her happiness. It doesn't feel to me like you're in that position, and that's good. As long as OM is actively involved, however, it can be very challenging to decrease the emotional distance that W is trying to maintain. In fact, trying to decrease it usually makes it larger. If OM is still in the picture, your mission is to tread water and not make things worse. Give her space -- repeat that when you wake up and before you go to bed. It feels wrong, but it's the best thing you can do.
Accuray
Married 18, Together 20, Now Divorced M: 48, W: 50, D: 18, S: 16, D: 12 Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 7/13/11 Start Reconcile: 8/15/11 Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 5/1/2014 (Divorced) In a New Relationship: 3/2015
She told me last night that she's been trying for years to make the M better and it hasn't worked and she doesn't have the strength anymore. I told her we've been in a canoe for years and she was sitting in the front paddling as hard as she could on her side of the boat, thinking I was paddling on the other side... but I wasn't paddling (or wasn't paddling as hard as she was) because I didn't realize how hard she was paddling and all she was doing was spinning the canoe around in circles and I was enjoying the scenery... Now I know how hard I need to paddle the boat and am starting to understand how she was paddling all these years. I told her if she didn't have the strength to paddle with me, I can paddle on both sides of the boat slowly for a little while until she has the strength to pick up her paddle again. When she picks up her paddle, I'll be able to better understand her stroke speed and can adjust to match it so the canoe goes where we want it to go...together. She liked the analogy but said she didn't think she would ever be able to pick up the paddle. I told her not to worry about when/if she could pick up the paddle, just know that I've got my paddle in the water and I'll be ready.
Sounds familiar but I really love the analogy. My H and I loved to canoe so it really hits home for me.
The canoe is hanging in our my garage, unused for over a year now.
Me 57/H 58 M36 S 2.5yrs R 12/13
Let me give up the need to know why things happen as they do. I will never know and constant wondering is constant suffering. Caroline Myss
Acc, I understand what you are saying, and theoretically I agree with you, but putting it into practice is hard work...every fiber of my being wants to run over to her, hug her, fix the problems, and make it all better (for all of us)...but I know I can't and it's killing me, especially when it seems like she isn't trying... Normally she gets the boys off the bus and gets going on homework and I get home at 5:30/6:00 and then we divide and conquer the rest of the work for the day (you help with homework, I'll do the dishes... you do the laundry, I'll finish up the science project, etc). Last night was a GAL night for me (and she knew going in I'd be out with the guys for a couple hours). I got home to get the boys to bed, and she had a terrible night with the boys (1 wouldn't get his homework done, the other wouldn't leave his brother alone, no one would take a shower, etc). While I felt bad that the boys were misbehaving (no matter what is going on with the M, they should always treat their mother with respect), in the back of my mind I said to her, "just remember, this is what it will be like for you for 4 days/week every week if you want to get separated" Is that wrong to think that?? I don't wish her added stress, but it was nice for her to see what it would be like without me around to divide everything up.
Once the boys were in bed, she got on the laptop to get some work done. I walked by at one point on my way to the kitchen and saw she had IM up and was chatting with the OM (didn't look at the chat log, don't care what they were saying). It was just disappointing that she needed/wanted to talk to him last night, even if they are "just really good friends"...
This morning when she left for work, she gave me a kiss goodbye and said have a great day.
Trying to keep up the fight, tonight should be a good night. Basketball practice with my older son's team (I'm the coach)... love taking both boys the gym and run, shoot, and sweat together.
M36 W35 S8 S5 M11 T17 ILYB Bomb: 01/25/12 Still living in the same house, sharing the same bed, trying to make it better
What the caterpillar calls the end of the world, the Master calls a butterfly."
And cadet, thanks for the links... I've got a lot of reading to do this weekend (the wife called to say she is going out with some friends Friday night and asked if I would be home to watch the boys). I guess I know what I'm reading Friday night...
M36 W35 S8 S5 M11 T17 ILYB Bomb: 01/25/12 Still living in the same house, sharing the same bed, trying to make it better
What the caterpillar calls the end of the world, the Master calls a butterfly."
Just heard Tennessee by Arrested Development...the original meaning of the song is not related to DB, but I was having a rough day today (why am I fighting for this, can it ever work if the W isn't fighting with me, should I give up/in) and this song really hit home and brightened my day...
The hook to the song is:
Take me to another place Take me to another land Make me forget all that hurts me Let me understand your plan
I definitely need to go hiking in the mountains by myself on Sunday; that's my place where I can forget all that hurts me...
The end of the song is:
I ask you lord why you enlightened me Without the enlightment of all my folks He said cuz I set myself on a quest for truth And he was there to quench my thirst But I am still thirsty... The lord allowed me to drink some more He said what I am searchin for are The answers to all which are in front of me The ultimate truth started to get blurry For some strange reason it had to be It was all a dream about Tennessee
M36 W35 S8 S5 M11 T17 ILYB Bomb: 01/25/12 Still living in the same house, sharing the same bed, trying to make it better
What the caterpillar calls the end of the world, the Master calls a butterfly."
Here's a question that has been rolling around in my brain for the last few days:
My W was friends for years with a co-worker (the group would go out to drinks every few weeks, etc) and I've known they have been friends, but it was nothing more. This past fall, I believe the friendship turned into an EA (I'm almost positive due to my previous attempts at snooping, but never confronted her so I can't say with 100% certainty). Post bomb drop (and numerous discussions we've had since the bomb), she says she doesn't want to get separated/divorced, she doesn't want to be with anyone else, but she still isn't in love, blah blah blah (I know how much of what she says I should believe) and yes I am getting to the question.
The W and the OM have since taken jobs in different departments (different buildings actually) but still at the same company and I know they still IM (I saw the icon on her computer last night when I walked by her). Can 2 people go from friends, to EA (but not PA), and back to friends?? Can the marriage recover if they literally are just really close friends now (in my simple little brain, I believe she ended the EA to try to work on us) or does she need to eventually get that influence out of her life for us to really get this thing back and have our marriage be re-born??
I truly appreciate all the time and efforts you all do for this board and those of us struggling through.
M36 W35 S8 S5 M11 T17 ILYB Bomb: 01/25/12 Still living in the same house, sharing the same bed, trying to make it better
What the caterpillar calls the end of the world, the Master calls a butterfly."
