Outside the Scope of This Report

[WenikiTiki]

Snodderly, Beatrice and Angel:

I can't tell you how good it is to hear from you and all the others who have been posting to me these past few days. As most of you know I don't verbalize well on here. I leave out much stuff.

I have cried so much this past 14 hours. I couldn't sleep, was having a huge panic attack last night. Laid in bed this morning just thinking and crying. Gave myself a headache.

All my friends think I'm on the wrong path. I can't talk to but a few people because they just want me to give up. And of course you would have to be deaf, dumb and blind around me to not notice how sad I am.

I see Destiny had a terrible night, too. I was so glad to see you were able to reach out to her.

I am going to the gym and lift weights in a few minutes. First I will answer Angels message.

Thanks again everyone for being there!

[WenikiTiki]

I disagree - its not guilt. Its justifying his actions so he does not feel guilty! How many times had I cried so much because I felt that I couldn't do right.

Booting him out would only be doing what he wants you to do, since I could see from the way your H is that he is really conflicted. He wants you to decide for him. That will make him feel less guilty.

I feel strongly that this is the case. I have said to him: "I am not doing this for you." That is pretty much what happened yesterday. I was going to take my stuff back into the guest room, them I decided that if he wants divorced he can sleep in the crappy room. (When my one son was living in that room I named it Grand Central Station.....It has two doors and everyone used it as a shortcut to the MIL quarters.)

Lay out your boundaries and make him decide what he has to do about it.

When the fog was lifting for my H, the first thing I heard from him was how appreciative he was that I loved him and stayed throughout his crisis. How he could not believe that I had stood by him.

I hope that day comes.

He told me that all throughout it all, even when he felt so infatuated with OW, he knew that he could not throw away our life together, but at the same time, was so afraid of living the rest of his life in misery, as he believed that he no longer loved me at that time.

This is darn near word-for-word what my H has said to me.

In my heart, I knew he would come back to me, and I just had to have the patience.

Wen, I will ask you...what do you believe in with your H? Can you imagine what will be your situation in 5 years? If after this 19 days, he turns around and starts working on your M, will you forgive him?

My heart is feeling a little trampled. He says mean things, then minutes later says something to soften it. Like he said he wanted to be with her forever. Then he says why can't I just let him spend time with her 'til she leaves? If after she leaves he starts working on the marriage I would be happy. But I know he is going to continue pushing all my buttons now, because he just can't seem to stop himself. All that time when I just quit talking, now he won't quit!

Soon after my sitch started, OW had come to the US to do a post-doc for a year.

I knew that year would be hell for me. Yet I set my deadline to give up on my H for 2 years. I was thinking that after 13 years of M, and all that things I had done wrong as well, plus the fact that I wanted to give my D the benefit of keeping our family intact, 2 years wasn't too bad.

As the months rolled by, many times I wanted to give up and just kick my H out of the house. Many times I had to forcibly shut my mouth to stop myself, or even stay late in my office. I refused to have R talk with him.

The ultimatum I gave him happened 2 months into the time OW arrived. My H did choose to stay, and for a while, he was in huge withdrawal, not talking to OW. But they resumed contact, this time hidden from me. I found out through snooping, and when caught, he denied. Without proof, I decided not to snoop anymore and just detach, but later, he said they were just friends, and I decided that I will just wait and see how things would play out.

I just keep finding out about more lies. I'm not snooping, but hate to wonder what I would find if I were.

I counted the months and days to the time OW was leaving.

There was a point (September last year) when I again demanded he give it all up. My H told me not to worry, he was going to end it all with OW, but that the condition was he was going to do it his way. I agreed, and told him, OK, do it your way. But make sure you end it, and I will not pressure you, but after a few months, I will check and we will talk. I have to know.

Again darn near word-for-word what my H said. And I had agreed to wait. But her suicide threats and other manipulations are killing me. So maybe I should tell him fine on waiting out her March 1st departure. But tell him I no longer want to hear the reports of her weight loss and death wish. Maybe it should be his problem to keep to himself.

And my H kept up contact with OW, almost up to the day itself she left. But at that point, the emotions he had for OW was almost gone, and he was ready to piece. Once she was totally gone, it seemed like the point where my H really pulled his act together, and so far, it has been getting better and better, and now I see a future for us together again.

So I ask you... if you let him have his last hurrah with her,these last few days, will you at least stay or let him stay and see how it will turn out? What if OW's threats and all are just destabilizing him? Once OW is gone, will the loss of is stressor put him back on track? Is your M worth the wait, and the aggravataion of the next 19 days? As I just heard today in a movie I went to, will you stay for all the things he did right for the M in the past, and forgive him what he did wrong?

I keep thinking that I have been waiting a year and what is a few more days. I think the fact that it was a year on Feb 4th didn't help. And YES I think she is destabalizing him. And in turn making me just crazy myself.

But his constant declarations of love for her have pretty much worn away my last nerve. And him saying things to me right out of the MLC script just get old.

His most recent script was that he only married me on the rebound from his old GF. She was my roommate, he asked me out first, dated her for maybe 3 or 4 dates, and I know they never had sex. Now he is acting like they were practically engaged and dated for a long time.

So H texted me while I was answering this. His text says: "I need some quiet time. Getting ready to go hiking. Will call later."

So I guess I will take another deep breath, stand back, and just see what he has to say whenever it is he meanders home. He didn't take much with him, so he will have to at least come home for work clothes.

Aloha,

Wendy

[WenikiTiki]

I see something I need to explain better in wht I wrote above.

When I said my now H asked me out first, I should explain I turned him down because I had a boyfriend who lived with me. BF and I had dated off and on since he was 15 and I was 16! I thougth I was going to marry him. He and I fought a lot. We broke up, and 6 months later I started dating my now H.

So I guess my now H was my rebound, too?

[job]

Wendy,
Your h is taking his direction from the MLC Manual. I don't see any problem in waiting a few more days to see what transpires between him and the ow. However, you could ask him not to share anything more w/you about the ow's weight, etc. Again, this is your call and you are the only one that can determine just how much you can take of him telling you about her or his behavior.

I hope that the hike clears his head a bit and he comes home in a good mood. I truly feel for you. It is very difficult and frustrating to have them at home and acting like love sick puppies in mlc. You have earned your halo and wings.

Try to enjoy the rest of your day.

[TRUSTING]

I so feel for what you are going through. Your sitch reminded me of the time me and my ex went to a play. It was about infidelity. In the middle of the play he turned to me and said, "You know, I just don't really want to be sitting in this stupid play with someone I don't care about". What they say is so hurtful. I really don't think they know what they are doing. What you decide to do is such an individual decision. Only you know, pray about it and ask god for direction.....hugs

[beatrice]

I sometimes feel like the bad fairy at the Christening. I would hate to say anything that jeopardized your chances of a reconciliation. All I can offer is my perspective.

Standing by someone who is behaving badly is one thing, allowing them to behave disrepectfully towards you is another, and risks, imo, that they currently think and will continue to think this is OK.

Your h may well be going through MLC [sounds like a duck . . ] and he may feel driven to act in certain ways, You may choose to overlook his behaviours and continue to love him.

The bit I do not understand is why anyone would allow themselves to be spoken to in that way without at least telling them how hurtful it is. If they don't know it is hurtful then it certainly needs pointing out to them, and if they do know, they need reminding that even if they prefer another woman, and are acting on that choice, it does not give them a free pass on doing and saying what they like.

Tolerating bad behaviour has nothing to do with love. Forgiving it does. There is a big difference. Just my 2, rather strongly felg, cents

[Kimmerz]

Bea,
I totally agree with you 100%. I was just thinking about this today. I had to email my xh in regards to taxes and some stuff. I chose to thank him for some things that he's done since the seperation. I meant every word too.

However I figure if past can predict future, there will be a spewing coming on. He told me he'd leave it up to me if I claimed both kids on the taxes or if we both take each child. I thought it over and this year Im claiming both. I've had them the majority of the time and I feel it's fair. Next year when the kids have consistently stayed with him 1 - 3 nights a week, then claiming one each will be fair. Though he left it up to me, I figure the PA could jump out and bite me again. We'll see.

My point being, we really need to keep our boundaries strong and it is NOT OK for them to say the hurtful things they tend to say. I agree that it needs to be acknowledged and not let go as if it doesn't exist. At some point a line has to be drawn if we want to come out of this with any self respect at all. Allowing such degrading comments to go by is us being very disrespectful to ourselves.

MLC, whatever. That is no excuse for such disrespectful comments to flow freeely. Believe me I've had my share of that from XH. Im still blown away as the the S*** that came out of his mouth, for he NEVER spoke to me in that way at all in our marriage, ever. I thought he had better vocabulary and was a hell of alot more articulate than that. But in the midst of spew....all bets are off I guess.

[job]

When my xh was doing the spewing and speaking to me disrespectfully, I called him on it and it stopped at that time. They are like children and need to be reminded that in order to gain respect from you and others, they need to be respectful as well. Like children, boundaries need to be set and kept at all times. Give them an inch and they'll take a mile. Sweeping such things under the carpet will fester raise its ugly head at a later time. It is best to correct the situation when it is happening.

Bea and Kimmerz, I'm with you 100% on this.

[Kimmerz]

When I was getting alot of spew at the beginning of the separation 9 months ago I had to put my foot down. I told him that he's hever spoken to me in that manner ever and that if he can't speak to me respectfully than not to speak to me at all. I can't tell you how many times he's quit talking to me since. So I think that's a clue on the spew I could've had! Of course it started up at Christmas again.

The behavior completely reminds me of a childs tantrum. Honestly it really is.

[angel61]

Yes, it is a childs tantrum. Remember with MLC they are reliving their childhood. And may I ask you: when your children have tantrums, what do you do? You don't disown them or throw them out of the house, right? or even fight with them. because its useless. What we have been taught is to IGNORE!

What I have learned about the situation: When our spouses are acting this way, it is NOT the time to call it out. they will just become defensive. My H, who is normally such a nice and gentle person, said so many hurtful things. he even once said that our whole marriage was a lie, that he NEVER loved me. How many times did he tell me our M was a mistake? Ho many times did he ignore me, was rude, would bite my head off at the slightest thing I say?

Whenever I did try to correct him, we would end up fighting even more. At that time, he believed that it was my actions that made him miserable. he said I was controlling. He even accused me of being controlling even when we were just friends, not even dating yet! My jaw dropped and I could not help but laugh at him at that point.....

One time I remember asking him that I at least be treated with common courtesy, and he just snorted. After a while, when I could see that he did not want to go, but that he still was monster, I would just keep out of his way whenever he was home, and would only engage him in conversation when absolutely necessary (like who was going to pick up D, when I had to travel, bills, house or car stuff).

As the sitch progressed, I slowly noticed a change in him. He started admitting his mistakes, started looking more at what i was doing. It was almost like sometimes, I felt that it was the first time he was seeing me again. He started to ask me favors, depend on me for personal things, the one day, he admitted that it was not me, but him who had a problem.

Fast forward to now.... H is slowly getting to be more of himself, but sometimes, I think he is getting to be a better version. I do realize that he has learned a lot, and is still learning, and honestly, I have allowed myself to hope again.

He does not like to talk about the OW, even if at this point, I do. He still has not said anything negative about her (he may never, he is usually a very mellow person and hates critics). But slowly, I noticed things like he deleted all of OWs pics in his phone, then he deleted her phone numbers. But this all happened when we were piecing. he even told me early on that he may be contacting her again but not to worry, it would only be work related. I told him I didn't like it but I couldn't control his choices, and if it would affect us negatively then so be it. I think he has given that some thought.

Beatrice, I understand your perspective, but one thing I learned from MWD's books is that DBing is counter intuitive. What you say is very intuitive for humans to preserve their sense of self and sanity, but preserving a marriage means extending yourself to something more than that.... almost to something heroic. And I would say that many here have become heroes in their own marriages... and their own lives.... and to their children, sometimes without their knowledge and acknowledgement even.....