DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 2)

[rickb89]

Rick,

I'm in a hurry atm so I can't fully respond. First & foremost, I'll send you some big hugs for hanging in there as you have.

((((( )))))

Its great to hear from you, and yes I can feel the hugs. Mmmmmmmmm....thanks.


ALSO here are a few questions so I don't have to review the whole thread. I recall your w having major baggage and issues that were pretty significant and that she's seeing a shrink. Is she addressing the issues or not?

Yes, she is addressing the issues head on, and is riding a roller coaster while doing it. I am proud of her and admire that she has the guts to face this because she didnt face any of it until she broke down in 2011. She's just got to the point where she can own the issues, face them, not blame me. It's like she has said, aaaah, okay, this is me, and she see's the effect it had on her, me, our family. I think she is just starting to think about how she can live differently. She has said its like she's unwinding a 45 year ball of a wiring mess, and is just beginning to rewire herself.

Is there a diagnosis to her, from a doctor? You said someone said she's emotionally 8. What were they talking about and what was that based on?

Fortunately she does share her sessions with me. Basically what I know is what I hear from her passing it on to me after her sessions and she does seem to be forthcoming with it. She wasn't doing that at all before and progress has been made over the year.

The psychiatrist is saying that if he could he would see her every day. He recognizes that she may be one of the toughest cases he has had and that's saying a lot. He does not have a specific diagnosis yet but he has put forth the concept of narcissistic personality disorder, a martyr complex and post traumatic arrested development. He believes the abuse followed by her Dad's death left he stuck in development at age eight. Then her teen years just propelled her downwards into this even more. And she does fit the pattern of it. I always thought of it that way throughout the years. She wasn't willing to look into these things through the years. She just kept burying it, denying endlessly and it finally caught up with her.

If they are treating HER, what are they doing about THAT?

Basically, besides anti-anxiety med the treatment has been to slowly draw her out from her fears, get her to examine each issue and then take baby steps to develop new habits. I have to be very careful not to judge her progress by any timetable except her own, and not by my desires. Fortunately I'm able keep my inability to consistently do this inside. You guys on this board know what I'm struggling with but I'm doing pretty good with maintaining the safe, place of comfort for her. I having trouble with the emotional part of this as you read in my post.

Does she have bi polar issues or borderline personality or abandonment (I'm sure you both have that)?

See above ^^^^^^^^^^^^. Bi-polar has not been put forth as a diagnosis, although its huge in her family


And btw, your own abandonment issues may give you the motivation to stick this out and that's great.....

OR it may make you stay longer than you should.

My W and I had a lot of similar trauma as kids but handled it very differently. I'm am evaluating whether the strengths I developed by my earlier tests were in some ways harmful in certain circumstances. All along I knew what the challenges were in our sitch and I told myself that no matter what I was going to make this work. I was not going to let my kids suffer like I did, nor handle it the way my parents did. My own issues did complicate this for certain. In this one area, feeling unloveable, I had no confidence. I used to think that if I drew the line at the abuse I was getting from her, she would never choose to face her issues because I didn't matter enough to her. So I ate it, and became what I never wanted to be in life, controlled by it and bitter.

If given the choice between the two, I'd prefer having stayed a bit too long than quitting a bit too soon. But there is sometimes a fine line.

And I understand your desire to know if there's a light at the end of the tunnel.

YOU could create that line if you give yourself an internal deadline for your m to improve or end...

I go through a number of possibilities and my emotions ride the coaster because truthfully, I'm not detached in the DB sense I guess. I know that she has all this going on. I know it's magnitude. But, I do feel I'm be taken for granted too. I have so much to figure out here!

I have thought about putting some sort of end date out there. When I do that I feel like I'm insulting what only the universe can do in its own time. Who am I to put some arbitray date out there when this whole things runs so deep, and has so many ramifications of the soul/god level?

but you've said there's so much progress lately and then I read this post and wonder what all of it means.

Can you recap?

I can say that in the last year she went from a complete breakdown, left me and the kids, blamed me for it all and said we were done. That went on for about six months. Then she began to feel that maybe this whole thing was something inside of her that she needed to figure out but we were probably not going to make it. That went for about three months and in that time she began seeing the psychiatrist. From then till now she has owned up to that this thing, the trauma, it's affects on everything, and making sure she faces it down and learns how to live without her completely dominating fears and limitations. She talks about our marriage as being an unknown going forward, not sure if it will or won't work because she doesn't know who or what she is yet, and she doesn't want to do anything in the ways that harmed her all along. She understands and says she appreciates my patience and understanding in this and does tell me that here and there. She's not saying she doesn't love me. She is saying she doesn't yet know how to live herself, never mind how to be in a M.

Shadow of the Valley of Death walk continues.

The more I focus on myself and my journey, the more I question what I'm doing. I guess I have to accept that my emotions are going to be wildly up and down as I walk this walk.

YES^^^
Maybe I shouldn't have a right to complain. There are so many people on this post whose spouses have left the home and/or D is imminent. Maybe I have no right to be upset. Maybe nobody has a right to be upset. Maybe hurt is necessary for growth.


IDK if hurt is 'necessary for growth" but it makes the pain at least productive. OTherwise it's all negative. Frankly, I'd like to "learn a life lesson" by having a GREAT thing happen to me, like winning the lottery...


I keep thinking that I have a right to be happy too. As I think in terms of how to live daily life, be fulfilled, and be open to happiness I find I'm getting angrier at the sitch.

YOU DO HAVE THE RIGHT/DUTY TO BE HAPPY...how can you create that for yourself now?
[color:#000099]

[color:#000099]I can't figure myself out in this. Maybe it's totally selfish of me? I've dealt with this sitch for over 20 yrs. Until the bomb I had it in my head that we would be together for our life and I enjoyed the many great things we had as H/W. I felt loved and had a companion, albeit a troubled one. Now, I don't know what will happen. I have to say I want to love wildly again. I want to let my heart out and let hers in but it isn't happening.

[color:#000099]If I felt she was working for our M too I would feel much better but she doesn't say that. She's working for herself and her kids, and maybe there's an us down the road.

Why is it dependent on her?[/b] [/color]

If I was a sole entity without love for her it would be easy. My heart and souls is bound to her by love. I don't know how to shut that off completely if that is what detaching truly is. So yes, this sitch does affect my happiness. I'd be doing the same thing as my wife did for her entire life if I denied the truth of how I feel for her. I think as long as I love her and stay with her I have to accpet the pain that comes with this sitch and keep living in the areas that have meaning to me. I around someone every day who has shut her heart off to me. If I do the same then where does that leave us?



Last night my W was out with her friend for dinner and my youngest and I were at home watching a movie. When it was over I was feeling like I do not feel like seeing her when she gets home. It's because its going to be all about her as everything is right now. So I figure I'll go to bed and read and choose not to be in the path of a sitch that will be completely one-sided.

Anyway, she gets home and decides to come into the room, sit on the bed and tell me everything in her day, her dinner, and showing me the photos she took using the technigues she learned in her photography class, and a whole bunch of other stuff.

at least she's sharing with you. Rick It's not a contest. She's opening up and you are having conversations that don't end up in conflict. That's progress.



It sure is progress. I never thought we would get to this stage when this all blew up. I think its definitely progress for her and yes she does share pretty much all of how she is feeling with me. Our M is a huge question mark though.

That's nice in an of itself, but its in a unatural situation. I mean its 100% one-sided. I'm never asked about my life. If I bring anything up she might acknowledge it a bit but move on to her again. I even see this in our family functions. No matter who it is talking about whatever, the subject matter completely comes back to her, always. The psychiatrist said she is stuck at age eight and I see that. I've got her next to me in bed, a woman I haven't touched in a year, who hasn't given me a ounce of consideration for my life, doesn't seem to get it at all, and is totally threatened by my life if it appears in any way to be moving on from her.

this^^^ is what I was recalling. What's the shrink's PLAN for her treatment? The prognosis? IS the therapy all about rehashing the past? I often think that just relives and prolongs the traumatizing event.

What is she planning on DOING with her life now? What is she SAYING to you about the m?

She has no idea how she will live her life but she knows how she does not want to live it. She told last week me that she is facing it all, sorting it all out, trying on new concepts, trying to simplify and organize her life. Our M is a question that will get addressed some where in all of this.



I realize that I'm responding emotionally to her and that's not detachment. And I know I have a problem with thinking in absolutes. How do I not be attached when I live with her like this? I wonder if I'm actually enabling her to live this fantasy life by providing the road home, the financial support, the cheerleading, the home, the time and space. I do have many interesting things in my life so its not a matter of finding things to do for me. In fact it would be nice to slow down some.


in a sense, every WAS gets to cake eat for awhile. Otherwise we'd be divorced. I'm not saying to do this eternally.

But don't beat yourself up over it or think you are a "dumbass". And I do see why you'd get tired of it. I get that.


In explaining this all to you I feel like how can I not give her all the time in the world. After a year of this sitch, and all that has gone on, no comfort from her, no idea where this will lead, all of it, I am just so unbelievably tired.


How does one detach emotionally without just moving on? That's my problem with absolutes. I keep thinking back to my real Mom who lived and died by what I believe to be a samurai death.


you mean heroic? or like a martyr? Is that all positive to you?

My Mom had the balls to stick to her core beliefs, her code of honor all the way to the end. That does appeal to me, her strength. What I can only see now but couldn't see until I grww up was how much I am like her, and it makes me feel very good. Maybe she would have found love again, with my Dad or someone else had she lived. I can see the merit in her living her vows out like she did, but I am starting to wonder about what it means to focus on self. What is selfish of me. I am certainly capable of being happy and if she died today I know I would be able to live a fulfilled life. She is here though, and is in the fight of her life. I don;t know where I fit in with her. I don't know what our M is. I feel like detaching from her is abandoning her. I also feel that not detaching from her is abandoning me.


When my Dad left her I was ten and came to the US to live with her. She never remarried and had an incredible opportunity to do that. She had her flings but they were away from the home so my brother and I didn't see them. She was only 16 yrs older than me so she was quite young at the time. The point I want to make is that she could and would never give up on my Dad and her, she would not let the hope for the M vows die. Then, while we were still kids she gets cancer and dies. She made a vow to see it through, and not give up on her M and the family. I saw her waste away day by day and scream in pain, and ultimately die alone but with her principles intact.

ouch...(((( ))))

[color:#000099]Yeah, ouch. The poor girl suffered so much[/color]


So, as I live this life of being there for my W, and being there for my kids, my family, my employees, my friends, I wonder how does anyone detach without a 100% goodbye detachment from your S? What is selfish here? What is self preservation? What is sensible? Do I accept that I will be a father to my sons but maybe never enjoy the loving company of a female partner again?

wow, lots of questions and too little time to address them all, plus I'm no guru.

Do NOT accept that you'll never get to enjoy the loving company of a female partner again. That part, I'm sure of.

[color:#000099]I don't know. I know they're out there and seem to want to be with me, but I don't feel an attraction to that. I don't mean I have lost the mojo to love a woman, it's just that I don't feel the desire to be with someone else.

Selfish/self preservation-- there is a fine line sometimes between the two. Look inward and deeply for your answers and try to avoid the self serving ones if you are not sure...err on the side of generosity if you can.

Yes

You can detach from the outcome, and detach from daily "results" without totally detaching IF you mean not loving her.

IOW, you can be the best man you can be and leave the results up to God, knowing you did your best

and letting go of the outcome...and still love your w....

you can swim to the other shore but you can't keep looking over your shoulder to see where she is or if she's following you. If she's too damaged to get better

or too sick to ever be a good wife to you, then you can say "in sickness and in health" and keep plowing-

but if she gets better AND CHOOSES to mistreat you, that is a very different situation.
[/color]

Mach said much the same thing to me. The more I take these gems out and examine them, the harder it is to get my bearings at the moment. I guess my W and I are going through the same things like that.


I love her and underdstand her sitch. I am dying inside if I stay attached, but can't see how to move on and detach without completelty moving on. My problem with absolutes I guess. Maybe I should just accept the pain and time whatever it will be and stop bitching about it?

Kelli called me last night back in the UK, and she is suffering just like me, the same way, and thinking about when her Dad died just like my Mom and I'm giving her all this loving advise. She asks me when do I love myself again?

If I was dead today and having my life review I would give my wife more time with this. I would do this for my sons too.

I feel sick...really

Be careful about your own EA with Kelli b/c it hurts your view of your w, whenever we are treated well by the opposite sex at the same time our own spouse neglects us'

I am very conscious of not falling into that trap. In fact I had to talk her out of it for herself. We are each working on our own sitches which are very similar and offering each other support as two lifelong friends will. I do admit this new element does give me pause for thought both because its from her specifically, but in a general sense of considering any OW. I do dwell here and there on her offer though. Even with this new twist to our relationship we have an excellent creative partnership. And when she did bring up the possibility of us creating a life together we did discuss it, but I never felt that I was in an EA with her. I don't feel less for my W because of Kelli. And once we established how we were going to go forward as friends and support both of us have been fine.

it gets dangerous. You of all people know this.

For now I am sending you prayers and support and HOPE...but the answer to your core question is

yes you get to be happy in this life time.

Do what it takes to get there. There is a reason Aristotle said "Happiness is a virtue". It does not "land" on us. WE have to create it.

(( ))

[rickb89]

Rick, hate it that you're so down. But you know what? I think you don't refill your tank. You are on this board, visiting everyone's thread and giving advice and encouragement. I have a feeling you do that IRL also. Am I right? Always making sure everyone else is OK but never yourself.

Bug - you got me there. This is good insight. I do have the yoga which keeps me alive. I have so much internal work to do!

Why don't you take the weekend and just do things that are only for you? Whatever it is that fills your soul. Your W sill be fine without you for a day or so.

You know I just might do that. I've been fantasizing about just going away for a weekend and getting a room somewhere, and just reading books and being with my own thoughts.

You're sweet bug. Thanks so much!

[labug]

I hope you do that, Rick. You are worth it.

You might get some help from this, it's been helpful to me in the past

storiedminddotcom

[rickb89]

Rick,

I know what you are going through, and it is some tough stuff buddy....

I'm gonna post something that was written by Truegritter, our very own Rainbow Skittle eatin, Fluffy Bunny , Unicorn riding, Brokeback Cowboy...


It was the first thing to come to mind when I read your post...

Thank you, Sir Gritter, for writing this....

And not taking me to court for re-publishing it....

: )




I think it applies to all LBS's and I will preface this by saying this comes from my own experience. If you want to know what that is. It is here on these boards and in my own threads.

I do not write this to suggest that it is the ONLY way. It was MY way and if it helps you then take it and use i.t I am happy to share it with you and ask that you pass along what was given to me, that I give to you today, if you find it has meaning and truth to you.

This tragedy and the choices of your spouse against you is probably the toughest thing you will ever have happen to you in your life. It is certainly a traumatic event to say the least because it is the destruction of your life and what you thought you could trust and believe in about love and sharing your life with someone.

When that belief and trust is shattered you have to feel and deal with its loss. You can go in any number of directions:

-run away
-blame and get angry
-you can beg or plead
-you can try to coerce, control and punish

In the end you have to find your own answer and THAT Only comes from making your own choice.

Not because of what someone else did
BUT in spite of it.

Choose to love in the face of all the anger, agony and pain.
In spite of what you feel you are a victim of.
In spite of how others may perceive you.
In spite of your own self doubt.

Choose for YOU and you will find what it means to love another.
You will find what it means to love yourself.

You will only get this awareness after standing through much pain. Constantly questioning yourself and your beliefs. Testing your fortitude.

Then you will emerge with the truth. The truth forged in a fire. Your own truth.

Then you will know the freedom and peace that comes from knowing that NO ONE can ever take that away from you.

Some of the tactics and boundaries we might employ, while they certainly are an expression of what you do not want in your life, they can also cause us to make choices BECAUSE OF SOMEONE ELSE. We risk placing our self respect on the foundation of demanding someone else confirm us by either doing or not doing something. It makes it all too easy to lay the blame on the person choosing not to conform to our demands. You run the risk of not making your own choice for your own reasons. It relieves you of that responsibility. And you will not know your own truth because it has been written by someone else. It was written BECAUSE of someone else. When you STAND up for what you believe, in the face of this, it becomes clear that you are truly free from the consequences of the choices of other people. In the end love endures and does not fail. Finding that out though, is a hard way to go.

I can only say it is worth it

Your spouse has the journey to take as well. They are trying to find the answers to the same questions. They think it lies in another person or relationship. And they will find it or they won’t. Until they do their life, love and relationships will be broken. They, as we, will repeat the same mistakes until they learn this. Until they do the M is broken.

And you have no power over it. Your power and your salvation rest within yourself. So this is an opportunity to ask yourself:

Who am I?

What does love mean to me? Is it defined by its expression by another? Or how I choose to express it?

So do what you will and feel what you feel. The consequences and the failures only bring you closer to the truth IF you have the courage to keep stepping toward it.

Many obstacles will be put in your path to overcome:

Denial
Self pity
Self-righteousness
Low self esteem

All of these are pitfalls to this tragedy. All of these are caused by this tragedy.

Your goal is to reconstruct your SELF from this destruction.

And maybe...maybe...your M may be saved along the way.





Peace to you while you take the next step Rick...

Mach - I was in an internal rage tonight, wild with agony, thinking that I should create a new life and "f" her, but something in me and I can't name it keeps whispering "don't do it".

I just came home and read this post. I was panting by the end of it like I just fought a death match. Thank god you sent this. I needed it like a shot to the head...in a good way.

Thanks man.

[rickb89]

I think you are right that trying to find this absolute detachment is impossible. When I have tried to be completely detached it has kind of worked the opposite for me and made me more upset by the the circumstances.

The fact is we are in situations where our S will always be a big part of our lives because of our children. As parents we also want what is best for our kids which we know to be a 2 parent home. So the idea of complete detachment I think is unrealistic.

For me rather than trying to detach completely I just try to live in the moment. This morning I was grateful that H came and walked with us to school. There were things I could have been annoyed about with him, like how checked out and self centered he was acting but I just tried to focus that we were spending time together.

So for me, I call it more living in the moment and living in today versus detaching. Regarding your one sided conversation with your W, I would try to appreciate her passion for photography and think, well today I cant share my side but maybe tomorrow will be that day.

Maybe detaching and living in the moment are two sides of the same coin but that is the perspective that is easier for me.

Also know that you are doing everything you can to help your W. For your children's sake you can not blame yourself for not being perfect, not perfectly detaching, not perfectly DBing. You are doing your best. You need to love yourself first. Your children will sense it if you blame yourself and live in a land of self pity.

I think you rock, rick. Hang in there

Brklyn - I really needed to read this right now, and you are so kind as always to help me here. I made the mistake of watching George Clooney in The Descendants tonight, and took my W. What an emotionally draining movie but we both liked it a lot. When Clooney confronts the OM in the movie, I literally screaming inside "do it..... F this guy up". Maybe I wouldn't gain any points at St Peter's gates for these feeling but it was so hard to watch this guy suffer... and it hit close to home. Who knew a date with my W would be so draining?

[Grmpy_Mnky]

Mach - I was in an internal rage tonight, wild with agony, thinking that I should create a new life and "f" her, but something in me and I can't name it keeps whispering "don't do it".

^^^Rick, I seem to be there every other night or so. I'm ok during the day, but at night the monsters come to visit and I get defensive and angry. I suppose the point I am trying to make is you are not alone. You might get into your head at a low point and think you are alone. Rest assured my friend you are not alone. I'm etarnally grateful that we all have this forum, nevertheless, how cool would it be if there was a geographical local we could all meet and share.

WTF? wish I could take my own advice!:)

[rickb89]

You know what? I need to move on mentally, emotionally, practically and spiritually.

I've given my all for one year now post bomb (will be 1 yr in March). Everyone here keeps telling me to detach, GAL, have no expectations. I've really worked at this but not effectively.

I have looked honestly and openly at what I am and what I have been in the M. I was as loving and as supportive as any man could be for a woman. I was a great husband, a great father, a great friend, a reliable and trustworthy partner. I also see where I "f" up. I didn't have the self confidence necessary to love myself enough to not stop the destruction. I've looked long and hard at this. I know where and how I developed this belief and I see where it hurt me. I became bitter, fearful and whiny instead. I'm also taking steps to move beyond that into a newer more evolved life. I was supremely confident in many areas of my life - in school, in my work ethic, in real estate, in my football days, in my martial arts career. Where I lost this was in my M. I knowingly let my W and her demons control the quality of our M. That was not good for either of us. That lead me to assume full responsibility for many of the areas in a M and family that require two mature adults to work together. I let her fears take the lead and then let my fears bring up the rear. I allowed a life of being mistrusted as a faithful partner all along. I let her twisted need for constant attention go on for fear that I would be rejected if I confronted it. Through this I did it all for my kids - fathered, loved, coached sports teams, was there for everything. I believed that the answer was to work harder, to keep trying to crack the code of my W. I could not crack what she herself was not willing or ready to face.

And now she's facing it and that's good for her. In the meantime I'm still letting her lead. Her crisis is center stage in our M and family. I have taken on all the roles in the family - father, mother, provider, handy man, maid, cook, etc. I was willing to do this because I thought that if I could give her a complete safe warm environment with unlimited time that would help her see it all clearly. Too bad that I had expectations along with it. I believed that we were a M w/ troubles that could work together on this and improve.

She can only be where she is. My enabling this sitch keeps it moving along at a pace where she does not have to be motivated by not having me there. That's all she knows. I have helped create this "cake eat" lifestyle. It's too easy for her to throw down the poor, lost girl routine all the time, but then find the time to be happy whenever she wants to be with her friends, go out and get hammered, do all the activities she has wanted to do and they magically appear right there for her, run around with others including my cousin and ignore her own family.

The whole concept of leaving the road home paved and smooth does make sense, however if there's no me left, if there's no me for her to respect because I have become a personal enabler, then there's nothing for her to want to come back too.

She herself admits that she needs to grow up. She's not going to do it if I keep bailing her out. She's never going to see me as anything other than someone who would jump at her beck and call.

I am truly sympathetic to her plight. I've given almost 25 years to it in many loving ways but I let it kill me too. I truly hope she makes it but I need to swim my a$$ off to shore or I'm done.

On a practical note I have to bring myself back from the brink financially. I support a number of people and I get no help from her, never mind that my MIL who lives with us is now asking me to bail her out because she wants something different. I've got to stay on top for my company and employees. My house is in ruins. She won't do anything to help, and no it was never the opposite when she was home with the kids all those years. I still carried the bulk. She just lets it all go - everything, and I need an army to help me clean and fix. My boys help all the time but there is such a punchlist left to do its overwhelming. She has these two dogs that are hated universally that run roughshod over the house and defecate at will. I'm not old but I'm not a kid either. I have to think in terms of when my earning power days end and I need to live off investments. You know that story about declining asset values. When she was home with the kids I made up the difference in working extra jobs.

It's not working this way. I'm still not part of her life in any sense of a partner that is loved and shares in the benefits of a M. The only thing that's going to shake up this is change. I will not continue to go on as simply the hired help. If she can't figure out how to live in the world with me here as I have been for 24 years and then the last horrible year then how's it going to come to her if I continue to do it all?

Mach kept hammering it at me to take control of my own life. 25 asked me to consider what will I do if she never gets over her crisis, or never "comes back".

I'm taking my life back.

[25yearsmlc]

I hear you.

((( )))

[BFloat]

((((Rick))))

I totally felt every word of what you were saying. I got to the point where I thought.. I'm saving myself first. For me and for the kids. Because every day that I didn't, another little part of me felt as though it was dying and I was so lost. And if I became a person that was so completely dead inside, then what was the point in Continuing if there was no chance of happiness.

I still hold out hope that H will see the light.. But it is no longer my primary focus.

I think you're showing a lot of courage.

((((( )))))

[purgatory]

well, I came here to say the same thing.... so.... ditto ^^^^^.

It's awe inspiring to see the amount of reflection you've put into yourself.

((((((())))))))