When it's a one-way street...part 2

[Accuray]

If that's true, it seems very sad that she's not willing to do that in light of everything else.

Yes, I agree, it makes me very sad. I feel like a little effort would go a long way. She feels like a little effort would just be followed by the expectation of more effort, and that she can't win.

I think you and I chatted once about whether you would want someone to go with you to a football game when you know they didn't want to and wouldn't enjoy it. I think even you said you wouldn't be interested, because that "disinterest" would show through and make it not fun for you. I'm not sure I see the difference in these things your wife could do for you, when you know how she feels about it. Obviously, if she "felt" differently, that's a whole other sitch.

Yes, that was a good analogy. It's all about the attitude, and that's where the effort comes into play. I would feel much better about it if she was making an effort to enjoy it, or find something to enjoy about it, even if it's not the football game. If you take someone to a football game and they came with a "three days of rain" type attitude, that's going to diminish your enjoyment. If they're not a big football fan and don't care about the game at all, but enjoy being outdoors, like the stadium food, and enjoy your enthusiasm or like making jokes with you about what's going on, then sure you can enjoy having them there even though the joy of football isn't shared. Sexually, she's coming in with a "this isn't for me" attitude, versus a "let me find out what I can enjoy about this" attitude.

Just curious, Accuray, do you think that YOU dropping the bomb on your W now would have the same effect on her? Do you think she's just comfortable and complacent like you were, and will be until something lights a fire under her? Or would she just be indifferent to that as well?

I've thought about that many times. Wouldn't we all want to know that? "Would our spouse fight for us or walk away?" It's impossible to know the answer unless you can walk away and mean it. If it's just a test, the spouse can usually tell.

Generally, we don't want to be the first one to talk away -- you look like the bad guy, you have to do all the explaining to family and friends, etc. In my case, my W kind of gave me a "free pass" by cheating on me. I could walk away now without being the bad guy, and my reasons for doing so would not be a mystery to the casual observer.

I've often had the internal debate of whether she secretly or unconsciously wants me to leave so she can get out of this marriage without being solely responsible for breaking it up. That would certainly explain why she's not willing to do the work to make things better or closer.

Here's what I think would happen if I left W: I think she would be very upset and cry initially. I then think she'd feel like she deserves it, and would get very down on herself. That feeling of being unworthy would prevent her from making any overtures to get me back. She would definitely want a friendly relationship, and over time that might be enough for her. If I denied her the friendly relationship, I think she'd pretty quickly want to fill the void, but would look to do it with someone other than me because she could start with a clean slate without having to deal with her issues.

I had a discussion about this with MC -- I could argue that I'm depriving W of happiness by not walking away and letting her find someone with whom she'd feel less competitive, or who she might not think has high expectations. If she found someone who was maybe less of a "star" than she is, or someone without a driver personality type, and someone who was also LD, maybe she could find real happiness in that relationship and I'm just standing in the way. MC said that she might not feel "safe" with someone without my characteristics, she might not be able to respect someone who was less intelligent than she is, even though being "the smart one" would make her feel good. He said that at some point she chose me, and there was a reason for that, so chances are if I step aside and she finds someone else, she's going to encounter the same issues, because they're really her issues.

So yes, I'm thinking of leaving -- but I won't do it as a test. In general, one of my resolutions about marriage is that tests are a really bad idea. Just assume your spouse would pass the test and use that to inform how you're going to behave in the marriage.

I realize that's easy to say and hard to do. Last night W and I went to a movie, came home, watched some TV and had a nice conversation, I felt very connected. We went to bed fairly early, and W didn't seem like she was about to pass out. She started massaging my arms and hands which she never does. I took that to mean that she was available to ML. I started kissing her neck and she said "What are you doing? Oh, you want sex tonight?" Tone of voice = she did not want sex tonight.

So that was a challenge for me -- I don't want to "punish" W by rolling over and being pouty, but continuing to cuddle with her is going to make me nuts. It's a very, very difficult position to be in for me. My childish instinct is to pout and punish you, my desire is to be the better man and let it roll off my back, and my body is saying "this is not ok, you need some distance here to fall asleep". The SSM thing to do is to not take it personally and know that she loves me. One of my projects is to figure out how to deal with that situation without making W feel badly or punished, but it's extremely hard because of what the raging hormones are demanding of me in the moment.

I've had some of the sort of transformations you've referred to. I work from home, so you can imagine MY most comfortable work clothes. My daytime clothes looked a lot like my nighttime clothes, and sometimes it was exactly the same -- for days! Ewww! Then I had gained some weight so none of my better clothes even fit, which was even more incentive to wear the sweats or flannels. But recently, I've gone out and bought some nice clothes that fit, and I shower, dress nice, and do my hair and makeup every morning. I've started exercising and I'm losing the weight. It feels great! I'm also developing some better habits at work (still hard to get very excited about the job though. ) So in this respect, I get it.

Yeah, I really wasn't talking about work, those are the changes I've made in my approach to the marriage, I doing things right with a great degree of thought and presence.

For example, I used to snow ski, not well but I loved it. I used to go with the local ski club. It was great fun, a mix of singles and couples and single married's. If I want to pick up skiing again as part of my GAL, that is definitely a venue I would love to pursue. I found them initially because it's really hard to plan an affordable ski trip alone, and my friends at the time couldn't afford it or had no interest. I have similar issues now. Well, H has a huge issue with it because it's a social club with singles. So, I have to decide if I want to do it anyway as part of GAL and disregard his complaint, or respect his concern, not go, and deny myself this interest. At the same time, I see the risk in going out of town with a social group that has singles, and I know how vulnerable I would be. So to avoid the risk, I end up isolating myself.

I'm a huge skier and I know how good it makes me feel. It's one of the many things I did with W before we got married that she gave up. I think you have to find a way to do it. Not going because "H doesn't want you to" only leads to resentment. If it's ONLY a singles event, that might be an issue, but if it's singles and couples, then go for it. If H wants to join you, he can, but if he doesn't want to, then he can't really tell you not to, right? When you come home, you'll have a better attitude, you'll be happy, and you'll have things to talk about and to share, and that makes you more interesting. If the singles aspect is too big of an issue, start a meetup for women and/or married couples to do group ski trips. You don't have to get a bus, just carpool and figure out how many people you need to get discounted lift tickets. Become the meetup sponsor and you may enjoy your new hobby that much more. I also really enjoy skiing with my 13 and 11 year old, you can get out with S too.

I see this issue in soooo much of my day-to-day life. I would decide one way if I plan to be married to him and a different way if I plan to be gone. And I'm not talking about sleezy-pick-up-someone-in-a-bar-and-take-them-home sort of stuff. Skiing is hardly immoral. There are things that I would like to do, that I don't want to do with H right now because of the state of our relationship, that I don't know how to do without risking the M.

If you're depriving yourself because of H, you will resent him whether you want to or not. Invite him to participate, and if he doesn't want to, then do it anyway.

Being an isolated introvert when you just want to go play a round of putt-putt golf for some minimal social interaction is really hard.

Meetup.com can be a great GAL resource for dealing with that kind of thing. In my area there's a meetup for women who like to go shopping at the last minute. One of their rules is that there's never more than like 30 minutes notice.

Good luck Crazyville, I definitely wouldn't fear ending up where I am. I'm very happy with myself and the progress I've made. Sure I'm frustrated and hurt by the state of my marriage, but I'll take that over feeling badly about myself anyday.

Accuray