MLC or Passive Aggressive or Narcissism

[job]

It's difficult to db a full blown mlcer, especially one that is out the door and acting out for a very long period of time. Dbing is for you, to help you cope along the way.

You've done everything you can to save your marriage...I hope that your wife will one day look in the mirror and face her demons, but it's going to take a lot for her to hit bottom because of her "learned" behavior.

Do what you must in order to take care of you and your children.

[sleeper]

Snodderly,

This thread has changed the way I view mlc as it relates to PA types. I'm not sure they will ever "hit bottom". My X experienced a very chaotic, abused childhood. When really bad things would happen to us in our marriage she often would discount my reaction, often remarking, "That's life". Hitting bottom as we say could just be another "That's life" moment for them.

That could be why some go from one OP to another and some seem to have reduced quality of life but just keep plugging along doing the mlc shuffle (ex. When some post ____ has happened to their X and they can't believe that didn't snap them out of it).

[4myfamily]

Same here, my thoughts are changing. My W was coerced into a teenage abortion by her parents.

She will not discuss this with me, but she has told my son that she 'thinks of that little baby everyday; and 'that is why I think I don't deserve anything good in life'.

I know when I think of our sons and the life that could have been their half brother or sister I get incredibly almost unbelievably emotional. The coping mechanism for my wife to deal with this guilt and sadness is beyond my comprehension.

I feel a lot of our marriage problems and her behaviors stem from (possibly) that one issue. It would certainly all tie in with avoidance and PA behaviors her desperate need for a 'replacement child' It is true that maybe some point the behaviors become more prominent, and some of the behaviors are the same as in MLC.

It may be possible that my W will try to suppress the guilt for the rest of her life as she apparently does not want to seek help. It is a shame because perhaps some therapy would help clear this for her.

A whole lifetime of guilt and coping mechanisms? Or a whole lifetime of MLC? She has so much going for her and I still would like to have a great relationship just like anyone here but maybe that is just impossible if the pain is to great to ever deal with.

[AntoniaB]

"This thread has changed the way I view mlc as it relates to PA types. I'm not sure they will ever "hit bottom". My X experienced a very chaotic, abused childhood. When really bad things would happen to us in our marriage she often would discount my reaction, often remarking, "That's life". Hitting bottom as we say could just be another "That's life" moment for them."

Another epiphany for me...when I think about my XH's family, this is the message he has been delivered his whole life...that most of life stinks, you'll never have a good job that fulfills you, and even if you do, someone's always out to get you. Therefore the only thing you can live for is the weekend, the night off, the occasional vacation. You pin every hope for fun on the times that are "entirely" in your control and you do what you want when you want in those times. There is no intrinsic value in anything you make or build. It's all just a pain, just work, and you trudge along hoping for small moments where you can just forget all that stuff.

In my very limited interaction with XH post-bomb, I have noticed that he lives this sort of mantra even more openly than he did with me. The last time we had an argument, it was over the fact that I had regained all my lost optimism and sense of feeling I can change many things in my life if I don't like them (except the way he feels about me of course) and he came back at me with this very angry "everyone hates going to work or it wouldn't be called work, that's NORMAL, and it's NORMAL to put all your emphasis in life into the times you're not working."

For him, he no longer has a home or yard--so when he's not working, he has zero responsibility other than perhaps doing his laundry or cleaning up his apartment.

XH has essentially decided, because this is the environment he was raised in, to not be able to handle it when anyone has any control over him. He's a teacher, and he has a lot of autonomy, but he can't stand it if someone else tells him what to do--especially someone with lesser experience. Rather than actually go back to school and become the one in charge, though, he'd rather just b*tch and moan about how bad it is...it's rather like his father when his father worked in a factory, complaining always about those in charge, or his mother who only ever worked part-time in grocery stores and who had a full-time job in a nursing home but was demoted when she gossipped uncontrollably about higher ups. So he's basically a lifelong curmudgeon...who has moments of happiness when he completely blacks out anything "work-related."

When we were together, of course, taking care of a house or property were also work to him...and he'd resent so badly that in his summer off he'd have all these house repairs to do that eventually I would say no, don't do them, let them go. Now I've got stuff breaking left and right that I'm having to pay to fix because he left things fall apart--but at the time I was trying to keep him happy, and taking responsiblity from him seemed to make him happy.

So the more I think about his P-A behavior and the messages he got from family, coupled with his own behavior which categorized "work" and "non-work" time as "evil" vs. "good", I think that if he does hit some bottom, he will definitely just chalk it up to "that's life" and not learn from it.

In fact at one point in the beginning of this mess, he said to me, "My brother was always a screwup, and I guess it was only a matter of time before I ended up as messed up as him. Maybe I am a bad person in my core. There is nothing I can do about it. This is who I am."

See I just think a person like this may be beyond repair. I know that I have made enormous changes in terms of the way I am since going through this experience. But I also have a VERY supportive family behind me and very supportive friends (and this board). I know how to ask for help and take constructive criticism.

XH has none of this. I once told XH that if he ever did hit rock bottom and lose OW and therefore "lose it all", that the only person who would be able to help him initially would be me. But his pride would never allow him to ask for help. I know it.

I hate to say he's a lost cause, but every day I think this has to be the case. I feel sorry for him.

[Kimmerz]

I have a question in regards to PA/MLC.

Is it classic for them to behave the way they do, and then turn right around and act as if nothing ever happened?

Im really struggling with some anger issues here with xh. It infuriates me that he's done the things that he's done and then turns right around and acts like it didn't even happen!!! If anything has been brought up as to WHY he's behaved a certain way, well it's all my fault, I caused him to behave that way or some sort of victumization spin is put on it to inflict guilt.

He is behaving nicely to everyon else, appears happy as a clam since OW affair was brought out into the open, yet when a mood hits him he has no problem emailing me spew.

Im feeling very frustrated, angry, and well victumized myself. He's now over there doing activities with our kids, OW and inlaws that we were doing a year ago here in our home together as a married couple. He appears as this charismatic, sweet, and fun person. Yet he gets called on trying to not pay child support and I get spew as to why it's all my fault he's broke and I do nothing but say one thing and do the other. MENTAL ABUSE!!!

Im constantly questioning what's normal to feel, or if Im stupid for feeling hurt when he does this. I feel like Im the crazy one and stupid for having the feelings I do.

[job]

Kimmerz,
To answer your question...yes. That is what PA behavior is all about. They do things in an underhanded way and create an atmosphere whereby you don't really think about the behavior until after the fact. For example, when my xh hadn't mowed the lawn in several weeks, I asked him to mow it. What did he do? He took the brand new riding mower out in the yard, not only mowed the lawn but deliberately mowed over several fruit trees that didn't have any grass around them as well as my pansy bed which was mulched heavily. This was a deliberate act because he had mowed around them previously many times over. When I asked him about it, he said he didn't know why he did it and bascially said "oh, well...now you don't have to worry about watering them any longer".

Another example, you and your xh are planning to go out for dinner. You ask him where would you like to go and he says "I don't know, you select a place". You select a place and later on he will tell you he didn't want to go there or didn't like it, etc.

They don't know how to say no or voice an opinion up front, but someway, somehow they will get back at you in another way.

What you have described about your xh is a prime example of PA.

[4myfamily]

Kimmerz, a few quotes:

'Many individuals of this type try to portray themselves as understanding and loving while at the same time expressing their anger in a veiled manner,'

Always the victim:'They are never responsible for their actions. If you aren't to blame then it is something that happened at work, the traffic on the way home or the slow clerk at the convenience store. The passive aggressive has no faults, it is everyone around him/her who has faults and they must be punished for those faults'

'The victim of this resentment often reports feelings of anxiety, sadness, anger, and various psychosomatic symptoms. Because the victim is seen as frustrated and irritable, that person may be wrongly identified by others as the angrier partner. Meanwhile the passive-aggressive spouse tries to paint a self-portrait of a calm and relaxed person.'

'The biggest frustration in being with a passive aggressive is that they never follow through on agreements and promises. He/she will dodge responsibility for anything in the relationship while at the same time making it look as if he/she is pulling his/her own weight and is a very loving partner.'

Being the victim of PA behavior is crazy making!

[job]

4mfamily,
Your posting is spot on. You have described a PA to the "T". You are so right that they do not follow through and will blame everyone else for the problems. My xh never took responsibility for his actions or I should say his non-actions.

The spouse of a PA will begin to feel frustration and anger most of the time and will finally end up doing the work themselves because they get tired of asking the PA spouse to do something. But, I do want to point out one thing, which I found interesting and funny later on in my marriage. If my xh really wanted to do something that was of interest to him...he would bust his @ss to get the projects that he had left hanging done. I always knew when there was something coming up that he wanted to do...

But the one thing that always bothered me was the fact that he would always screw up big time a week before my birthday, just so that my special day wasn't a happy one. Any thoughts on why he would do this? Because when his birthday rolled around, I made sure he had a great day and always got the items he had mentioned that he would like to have.

Another thought, his mother told me that when my xh was growing up, if she asked him to do something, his comment would be "can't Kenny do it". She had the most difficult time getting him to do things.

[beatrice]

I think PA like to punish those they are close to and emotionally dependent on. In fact I think it is one reason why they often leave us, often, because they are terrified of abandonment, and so they run first.

So they screw our birthdays upnfor example. Part of them hates themself for it, but the other part of them is quite deliberate about it. I think one problem with PA is that their "adaptive" child part of their personality is out of control, and actually dominates both the free child and what should be the dominant adult voice. The adult and free child are a bit frightened of this out of control character and spend a lot of time pretending it doesn't exist, and never address it. It really is a manipulative and covert part of their personality which they are pains to deny to themselves and others, rather than addressing it. Many PA behaviours stems from this - the blame, spite and manipulation, in a person who has many many good qualities which get quite over-ridden.

[AntoniaB]

Here's a different side to the birthday issue (or Christmas): my XH would go FAR overboard on gifts. We might set spending limits; he'd go over them. Sometimes double. He was the "best" gift-giver ever...my sisters would constantly compliment him and say they only wished their husbands would put the care and thought into what they chose for them. As the recipient of the gifts, I was thrilled, of course. But there was eventually a dark side of the over-indulgence:

1. He insisted there was NOTHING he ever wanted. He would say "I don't want things; I want experiences." So what does that MEAN? He'd say, "You should know me well enough to figure it out." So I'd try to figure out what he meant, but I'd always come up short. He would turn angry that I hadn't done "as much as he did for me" when it came time to doing for him.

2. When he turned 40, I thought I got it all right: I ordered him a personalized hockey jersey and I asked our closest friends if they wanted to go to a hockey game with us. Since we were going to be staying with that friend, the friend offered to order the 4 tickets for us. This guy LIKES going on tix sites and finding the perfect seats at a good price. When I asked that friend about bakeries in the area and what he'd recommend, his girlfriend offered to get a cake and have it at the house for us when we got there. We drove up to their house and gave him everything and I reimbursed the friends. Later, XH told me that I obviously didn't care as much about him as he did about me, because I wasn't the one to order the tickets or the cake. He said that if it weren't for our male friend he "wouldn't have gotten anything for his birthday." I mean, could I help it that the friend OFFERED to do this stuff? Was I supposed to say no? I never asked for help. It was just offered. The cherry on top was that after the game, which was the first game I'd ever been to, I developed a hardcore migraine. Between the flashing lights, the noise, the cold, the thai food earlier, the red wine, and the stress because I could just SENSE that XH was not happy, I got a massive migraine. Later he said I ruined his birthday with my migraine.

God the more I look back, the more I realize how much anger I put up with for so long. This happened 2 years before his initial MLC appearance...