W racing to finish line - do I bring up OM?

[25yearsmlc]

Thanks 25 and Busto -

So I met with W and we talked for about 45 minutes. She was very cordial and she did give me my key back. We started talking a little bit about what is going on in our lives she did show concern -----I did apologize for things I did in the past, and she did mention that there were a few times when I drank too much and said hurtful things which I validated (mind you, some of these things were when I was 25 or 26 and I am now 32),

I'm so glad you didn't argue or debate the relevance of the timing of the events. Clearly she was VERY hurt by them, and probably really freaked out by those episodes. I think she's using them as clear examples of behavior that really really truly deep down turned her very OFF of the marriage rather than evidence of you today...(Maybe you could have said "so sorry I hurt you like that and God knows if I had it to do over again, there are LOTS of things I'd do DIFFERENTLY")

OR Maybe that's when she began to feel the marital walls crumblings...especially b/c she wanted children, and you mentioned her parent's "clock" and her clock is ticking.

BL Sometimes people who lose their temper or bully others, think a later apology suffices, or that just the passage of time, eases the pain. It doesn't.

It's like the temper people think that should more or less "erase" the event. Never to be remembered...but it's Not so. It's frightening for a wife to feel unsafe with a husband. It goes to the core of her being part of a couple.

But still, it sounds as if You handled hearing a really tough memory, as well as you could. Good job.



and she said well "it is what it is", no use in re-hashing things. She did mention that I looked good and that she's glad to hear that things are going well.


that's ^^^^not an unfair summation. Glad she didn't have a grievance list or litany of complaints. And it's nice she commented on your appearance. Of course if she notices or acknowledges your changes, that's even better .

Finally, she asked if I had spoken with my L. I said yes, and she asked when we could finalize things.

She did say she cares for me and wants happiness for me, but these words seem to ring hollow for me (not out of spite, but because her actions don't really follow this).

How so? Why do you say SHE is being inconsistent? (Couldn't she say that about you? Seriously, you mistreated her, but claimed to want to stay married, but you reacted to her in anger and with more hurtful words.)

You say the words ring hollow -- B/c she hasn't returned to you but honestly, Why would she?

No offense meant BL--I know you are hurting.

But you got Her letter back in August & she outlined what she saw as the problems in the m. I don't know when you read the DB books but

You DID nothing to change, and you repeatedly spurned her overtures at friendship.

You admitted you were angry & being punitive.

So be fair now. Why would she want to work on the marriage? Forget OM for Now ---as much as you WANT OM to be "the real problem", you know he's not. IMO, this but is just more of "not my fault" from you again.

With or without the OM - you've admitted that your behavior was darn lousy in parts of the marriage, (even now you minimize it or say it was long ago. Even now, imo, you do not get it.)

When she left you, your angry vindictive behavior did NOT improve or change! How is that about anyone but you?

I'm very sorry to say that b/c I know it's a tough pill to swallow. But you must see this or all the pain you are in will be for nothing.

And That angry behavior only stopped when? This month? Last month?

Your w saw the behavior before, she told you it hurt (cursing at your w of course it hurts so how much did she need to "communicate" that to you? I mean you knew it was a lousy thing to do, right? Maybe you grew up in a family that did that and maybe her family was quieter, but either way....)

as she began to plan motherhood, your behavioral outbursts took on a new importance to her. I understand that totally. Do you? [i]You do not have to agree with her but do you see why she'd feel your behavior matters even more if you are a father?

So can you see why a man with a bad temper would make a would-be-mother, MORE determined to improve the marriage, or leave it?

[/i] You simply must start seeing things from her point of view== even if you don't agree with her take on things.

Only recently have you showed her any behavior that indicates change. Up til a few weeks ago, your behavior confirmed all of her fears and concerns.

In one large study, Women report that the two most important qualities in a h is fidelity and security. "Security"....investigating mysterious noises downstairs...providing a roof over our heads and food on the table, and of course, We want to feel physically safe with our men, not just financially secure.

In August, her letter spelled out to you how you mistreated her, including the outbursts in which you cursed at her or said some cruel things including profanity aimed at her.

Instead of owning that or changing it THEN-you did more of the same old...and now

Here we are AGAIN-- you want the focus off of your mistakes, and back on OM....

you are still dangerously into the blame game-keeps you stuck. Prevents you from growing or improving.

I know it's very very hard to admit to oneself that you've blown something big in life. I get it. I have blown something very important to me (my father told me when he was going to die and he urged me to get there.

I had just seen him the week before, we lived 2000 miles apart and I had started a new job a month earlier...I delayed. He died when he said he would).

The remorse and shame can be debilitating. But hey, when hospice said, for the 4th time, that my mil's time was near, each time my h got on a plane at my urging. And she died in his arms as she/he wanted. So yeah, I learned a lesson and passed it on.

No one wants to be in that regretful position. But we're all human, and we MUST learn from our mistakes

OR

repeat them. That's the choice you have now.

When you bring up OM, you are essentially saying you are Not that interested in learning how much you hurt your marriage,

or how wounded your wife felt OR for how long, and how she felt wronged.

Heck, aren't you interested in how you can improve as a mate? She's such a resource for that and merely asking her that question reflects so much soul searching on your end. ...

but I think it's just too painful for you to look in the mirror. I get that. But after all this pain, it just compounds the tragedy to stay stuck in the blame game. So given that you didn't probe for information about how SHE FELT when married to you or how you could change as a man...
-

I would Not expect HER to change her path for you.


Remember The reason most 2nd m's end in divorce is b/c the spouse has NOT Learned or owned their role in the demise of their m, even when they are the LBSer...

The wounded spouse goes out to remarry and "prove" their worthiness as mates...but if they did NOT learn from their mistakes in the first m... nothing improves so in time, their flaws resurface and another m ends.

Two of my sisters, one older and one younger, both had h's leave them. My older sister was m for 22 years, was a very giving w, worked full time the whole m, AND put h thru law school, they had 3 kids she mostly raised as her h was busy working. He was a discontent by nature, and irritable, easily stressed and apparently he was a serial cheater. My older sister handled the blow with dignity and grace and never said "how dare he!!", etc.

Later on it became apparent that her ex h has deep regrets about how he treated her and how his new wife is Not as kind or loving as my sister was/is. He gets that he blew it, and he said so.

Whereas My younger sister's h left her and married OW 30 days later (the legal minimum). She thinks she did nothing to contribute to the demise of her m. ...My younger sister sums up her marriage ending "b/c of OW"....as if all was great before OW came along. She never mentions that After the wedding, she gained about 75 lbs., she had no kids and she never held a job in 13 years). Her h was a pilot and very attractive.
She put out a negative vibe for about 3 years and really not a lot of good things went her way. She attracted what she put out and it was sour and dour.

My older sister saw a T and she learned to set boundaries better in her new r's so that she won't tolerate that type of hair trigger temper and over reactions of her exh, again. She remarried and she is happier now than she ever could have been with her first h, so he really did her a favor.

My younger sister talked to a T about her xh...not about herself, just her h. When the t wanted to address my sister's issues, how she effectively sabotaged her own m, my sister switched counselors. I really don't believe she has faced it to this day. It's up to you how you handle this. Which path do you want? Life is short.

BL, you have said You know you need to change. Your past behavior seriously damaged your marriage. Own that. Learn from it. Move on. If you can rebuild a friendship with her, then in time she will see the changes in you as you mature and the new you is revealed.

While I understand that I shouldn't bring OM up and didn't, it did bother me a bit that while she was being nice to me and acting like she cared, I knew this wasn't a positive for my situation. I couldn't help but think it is just easiest for her to act nice because she think i'm in the dark about everything.


well she's in a lose lose with you on this.

What would you prefer? You want her to say "Btw, I have been with SUCH a great new man. He is a great lover and provider and HE makes me feel safe. Come to think of it, now I'm in a hurry to get back to him, so here's your key, see ya!"?? (Feel better? I thought not.)

See, I think you want her to be wrong.

When her letter was clear and calm last summer, you lashed out. Now her present behavior is cordial to you but she seems resolute SO you still want to find fault with that, even though down deep you know the alternatives are worse. Now she's wrong for being nice? Come on BL...you've grown more than this.



I know, I know...this is absolutely NOT the way to think, but I think to some extent it is reality.

I don't understand this^^^ sentence. What is the reality?

You think she's being nicer to you BECAUSE there is OM?

I don't get what the complaint is in there.

What bothers you about her being kind to you now? What difference does the OM make vis a vis her being cordial to you?


That is why I think it is much harder for DB'ing to work when there is an OM involved. I truly think that the WAW will say anything nice to let the LBS down easy and

any decent person does that^^^^!!!....Why would they rub it in your face?
( IS that something You would do to her?)

I honestly don't get your point about how it bothers you that she has OM AND is being kind to you...

look around. There are horror stories here about how the WAW throws the OM in the face of her h specifically to hurt the h.

Or she brings OM around and engages in PDA and shows LOTS of "LUV" to OM in front of the h AND their friends..to humiliate her h, or to "teach him a lesson"/punish etc...it's transparent and vindictive and cruel.

Your w has done none of that. Telling you about OM would hurt YOU, not her. Given the situation, I think She's being decent.

Is it possible BL, that you want her to wrong YOU?

Why do you think that would be?

reduce their guilt and state various reasons for leaving to justify

1) don't over estimate her sense of guilt. Since you admit her concerns were valid (though you still minimize them after admitting them. It's like you can only cope with so much remorse before you convert it into being someone else's fault) and

2) she had reasons for leaving and you know them. Those were reasons that existed before and apart from OM.

their actions regardless of if those were the true reasons that they decided to leave the M (she even mentioned that she wanted to take dance lessons and I didn't want to).


One of us has amnesia. She did NOT leave you b/c you didn't want to take dance lessons.

Your own thread reveals that in the past, you have shown her a bad temper, you said cruel & profane things to her or about her when you got angry, sometimes you had been drinking, but sometimes you were sober & you still said them. IMO, That hurt her deeply & shook her to the core. You were verbally abusive, sounded self centered and admitted you did not treat her well & took her for granted.


I'm certainly not going to say that this predicament is not my fault, but

BUT you want to say it and believe it anyhow.


I know this board is all about trying to help both LBS for themselves and in the process if they can help the M, even better.


correct...remember this^^^^ when it gets hard to hear.

I hate having to hold something in like this. Maybe it is the right idea, but for me, it just seems like our conversations are so superficial and hollow.


Sounds like you didn't say what you needed to say. I don't mean about OM either...

Why not tell her about the man you want to become, and clearly and confidently tell her you are NOT the man you were? Me thinks it's because you still don't get it.

Sorry BL, but Whenever you really grab at the root cause of her leaving, you let it slip out of your fingers. Why?

Well, IMO

it's too much for you to handle, even now. Seems you find it too painful and perhaps even shameful - so you veer off and go in circles about OM or the "real cause" of her leaving, as if she was mysterious about it.

She left b/c she was unhappy AND she could not see having a child with you.
We know she didn't feel safe with you. And she wants to be a mother. Soooo,
Given the lack of visible change on your part, she probably felt she had no choice.

OM just confirmed that there are men out there that would not treat her that way. I've already attached a letter from a WAW to her h so you can learn to see things from her point of view. Do you remember it? Maybe I didn't post it here...

Either way the message didn't sink in. If it had, you would not be asking and saying these things again.

Saying "DBing doesn't work if there's OP" is inaccurate (though the more factors going against you, the harder it is to repair, of course...)

but it's ilike saying "It won't matter anyhow so NOTHING I do will make a difference" (in getting her back) and it's just a cop out for you.

You seem to believe if the OM were not there, then what? You think you two would be together and happy? I don't. Your w had an awakening about your temper and the vision of you being the father of her kids did not mesh well with her. Plus you seem to believe with OM, now the problems are all OFF of you.

Why not learn from this what NOT to do and what TO DO in a healthy marriage? She could be such a good source of information for you. A resource if you will.


25 - I did tell her that being apart from her like this has made me realize how special she really is (the compliment that you asked me to let her know). She responded with an uncomfortable smile and said "i'm not that special.


I'm glad you tried. So you know-many women hear generic comments like that, which is why I said make it sincere and real.
Specifics are the best kind of compliments to give.

I know your intentions were good. But "special" isn't specific enough and that means to her it was not believable coming from you. It comes off as a tactical remark you can check off as "done"...

Had you said, for instance, something truly specific to HER that she does, or knows or expresses...such as a talent she has like singing or playing the drums or violin, a love of music and in depth knowledge of all kinds like jazz and opera-what a depth to have with such eclectic taste! Or a penchant for fine cuisine-is she a great chef or an adventurous novice?

(You might have said you miss her cooking -or her enjoying your cooking--so much that you are taking a class in Italian cooking-that hypothetical is a specific compliment to her, AND shows change in YOU)

Is she a stylish dresser, still staying in good shape, taking care of herself... she's smart at work & got that promotion, she is great at helping different groups resolve conflict at work, has a gift for getting along with wildly different people, a joi de vivre when she works or travels or meets new people, ...

I'd bet a lot of these very traits are hers. And a million others I didn't mention.

Specificity enhances credibility.

So saying "I now see how special you are" w/no follow up, isn't quite the pronounced change in YOU that she needs to see/hear.

And when she said she wasn't "that special", you had the chance to show her the thought you had put into the compliment,

by supplementing it with specific facts about her...instead you let it pass...

Why do you think you did that?




As for your question above regarding my W being friends with them or just being my other half, she definitely had her own relationship with them.


it's great she's reconnecting! That may allow for some positive memories to resurface in her. And your mutual friends will help you reveal your changes-indirectly- b/c they'll see them in you! When they run into her, you can be sure they'll mention that you "look good, got that promotion, bought a car," etc...she'll learn of it. Trust me on that.

I will be curious to hear what she tells my friend's W tomorrow night. I think that we did have a nice conversation, but she definitely is still all about moving forward with the D.

Thanks again for all the well wishes.

Sorry she's going ahead with it, but she really has no "intel" that you are changing and you only recently began on your journey...
as for what she tells others, first remember...you have NO control over what she tells others...so let that go.

Besides, what would you have her say?

That everything in the marriage was great but then for NO reasson at all, she left you for this OM, who pursued her and she fell under his spell?

Would you prefer she say she finally met "THE Right guy"?

We both know she's too kind to bash you much, so don't count on her spending a lot of energy justifying by hurting your rep.

She'll say you grew apart, "had less in common/were fighting a lot" and maybe it's "best this way" etc...frankly, it's the classy thing to say, given the givens.

You think that all was well until OM showed up? No...but it might be what you want to tell yourself, or others.

But see, then that would mean you learned nothing from all this pain and

the reality is,

if you want to reduce the chance of having your heart broken again-

learn where you went wrong in this marriage and grow from it.

She'll hear of your changes if you make them. Good luck and keep posting and working on you.